River Jordan, SASS 18742 Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Howdy I am in the process of acquiring an older Navy Arms Uberti 1866 in 44-40 and will probably slug the barrel anyway but does anyone think .429 bullets might work? I heard these rifles are a bit oversize River Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Some are, some are not. I load very soft .429 bullets and they work perfectly in my Uberti, made in 2007. There is more than the bore's groove diameter that you have to watch out for. Some chamber necks are tight with (say) Starline brass and .429 bullets. Starline being one of the thicker .44-40 case necks. Best way - buy a hundred .429 bullets, load a couple of dummies (no powder or primer) and see if they chamber easy. Or borrow a few loaded rounds from a pard who makes good .44-40 ammo, and at a range, see if they chamber easily and fire without any pressure signs. The chances of a .429 causing pressure problems in a smaller bore gun (like .427) are pretty insignificant, since we use fairly soft lead slugs. The chances of a smaller slug (.427) causing leading and inaccuracy in a larger bore are pretty significant. Factories and commercial loaders use .427 slugs in a lot of .44-40 ammo, because they don't want to have folks finding that the finished rounds will not chamber, or raise pressures too high. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 River, some information on the 44-40. I don't see any valid reason why the 429 diameters wouldn't work http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44-40_Winchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Howdy As usual, Garrison Joe has some excellent suggestions. Slug the bore, and try a few bullets of different diameter and see what works best. These days, most Uberti rifles chambered for 44-40 seem to have rifling groove diameters of .429. I have a Henry that I bought a few years ago and when I slugged the bore it was .429. However my Uberti '73, which was made in the 1980s, has a rifling groove diameter of only .427, as do a couple of antique 44-40 rifles of mine. The chamber is tight enough on my Uberti '73 that when I load .429 bullets into cases, the case mouths expand enough that they are a bit difficult to chamber. .428 and .429 bullets chamber fine. So for quite a few years I loaded .427 bullets into 44-40 for my '73 and my antique lever guns. When I bought the Henry a few years ago with its .429 bore I had a bit of a quandary. I did not want to be loading separate ammo for it, with different diameter bullets than for all my other 44-40 rifles. So I compromised with .428 bullets. Yes, in theory lead bullets should be .001 oversize of the rifling diameter to properly engage the rifling. But since I only shoot Black Powder through my Henry and my '73 I use bullets made of dead soft, pure lead. The .428 bullets probably slug up in the .429 bore of my Henry. They engage the rifling and accuracy is fine. And the .428 bullets do not cause any problems chambering in the tight chamber of my '73. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 If you mean older, do you assume the piece to be made mid to late 1980's ? I would slug the bore. My 1985 Navy Arms Uberti 44WCF Carbine barrel slugs .4255"- .426". When I bought this piece it had excessive leading forward of the chamber in the Leade area. The previous Owner was using, most likely .429"-.430" sized bullets. For this piece I reload .427" sized RNFP's and this Rifle is very accurate. Remington brass is a No-Go. I can only use Winchester or Starline brass. I was informed by a former Navy Arms factory Gun Smith, Navy Arms made there own barrels and did not use Uberti barrels or furniture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 .429's work fine in my two 73's and my 66. Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Coconino Pistolero, SASS # 72432 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 My 1986 Allen F.A. Mfg, Santa Fe, NM .44 wcf measured .426", but I size the big lubes (20:1 alloy) to .428 since that is what the 1866 uses. See if you can get some different size boolits from some pards and load up some in Starline to see what works. CP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
largo casey #19191 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Hey Coconino,Is your Allen arms a rifle or pistol.I picked up apistol a while back.It has adjustible sites & 4 3/4 barrel.I haven't seen many of these around..Largo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Coconino Pistolero, SASS # 72432 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 It is a 1873 rifle, fergot to mention that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ordnancebob Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 I use .430 diameter for my Taylor's 73 as well as my SmokeWagon. .427's were leading in the throat of the smokewagon. The larger bullets are also more accurate. My Chapparel revolvers have had the cylinder throats opened up to use .430's as well. Yes the brass does look more bulged with .430 bullets , however they chamber fine. Winchester brass with Trail Boss powder or Starline with APP. Sua tela Tonanti Ordnancebob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 I have a fairly recent aged 1866 (less than 10 years old). I'd like to shoot 430s out of it but it will hesitate on chambering a 430 bullet. I cast 430s and size to 428. Runs like a champ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyandot Jim Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Well my Uberti Henry made for Navy Arms in 1985 slugs .425. So I use .427s with Black Powder/ Triple 7 no problems. From what I hear the older 66s and Henrys that Navy Arms built were .425 along with the early Uberties Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Howdy, Pards, I bought my Navy Arms M1860 in .44-40 when I first started in CAS, at least 25 years ago (check my SASS number). It has a .429" groove barrel. I shoot .430" bullets in it, using Winchester brass exclusively, and smokeless powder. I need the Winchester brass for use with my OMV's, which still have the .425! throats!! (That's another story, but the pistols shoot fine with the large bullets and tight throats. Just use BHN 17-22 bullets.) Back when Navy Arms first put out the Henry Repeating Rifle, they made some in the original .44 Henry Rimfire. Those had .425" barrels, which didn't make much difference since there wasn't much ammo available...they were made primarily as collector's pieces. But some of those tight barrels were left over when they started chambering for the .44 WCF, which probably explains why some .44-40's turn up with the tight barrels. No, shooting the larger bullets in the smaller barrels won't run pressures up UNLESS the chambers are so tight that they won't allow the cartridge case to expand and release the bullet on firing. So far as bulging the brass with the larger bullets is concerned, size the cases in the regular .44-40 sizing die. Buy a .44 Magnum expander plug (regular RCBS expeander die bodies can be fitted with the .44 Magnum plug), and use that to expand and bell the case mouth. The resulting cartridge, when the bullet is seated will (should have) a "wasp waist" behind the base of the bullet, which will help keep the bullet from being shoved deeper into the case. The wasp waist will expand out on firing. With Winchester brass, it may shorten case life, but I haven't had any problems with Winchester brass after 20+ firing! The few cases I lose are generally not to be found in tall grass, and a few get "pitcher mouthed" due to the way my M1892 Rosi's catch the mouth on ejection. (The Henry doesn't get as much use nowadays due to the weight being a problem with my old back! ) Ride easy, but stay alert! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America! Your Pard, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ordnancebob Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 I too use a .430" diameter expander in my RCBS Cowboy Dies. No problem in my 73 ,Smokewagon or Chapparel revolvers. Winchester or Starline brass. I separate the brass to keep APP and Trail Boss loads apart. Have tried full Triple Seven loads at the range to experiece what a period fullpower load would have felt like with the old original BP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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