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A fresh "Whats the Call?"


Yusta B.

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Scenario: Rifle & SG staged and shot at left window. Pistols shot from right window. Rifle & SG are staged on a flat surface approx 30" wide & 48" deep at the window.

 

At the beep - retrieve rifle & shoot 10 rifle targets (order not important here).

Make rifle safe & retrieve SG & shoot 4 KD's.

Make SG safe, move to right window & shoot 10 pistol targets.

 

 

At the beep shooter picks up rifle & shoots 10 rifle targets. He places rifle back down on table open & empty, picks up SG & shoots 4 KD's, places SG back on table open & empty and runs to right window & shoots pistols.

 

Some time, either when putting SG on table, or when moving to right window, SG comes in contact with rifle & closes lever. TO & spotters are sure the rifle was opoen when the SG was picked up.

 

How much trouble is he in ??

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Well, shooter may not have intended to allow the SG to come in contact with the rifle lever, but it appears he did (unless some spotter snuck over and closed the lever for the poor guy).

 

Under the general belief that the SHOOTER is responsible for restaging his rifle open and empty in a manner in which it stays OPEN, and that the SHOOTER is the person who caused the rifle lever to be COMPLETELY CLOSED, then it is a Minor Safety.

 

Now, that having been said, it is usually difficult to get the rifle lever completely closed, so the action is completely closed, by accident. If the action is open any amount, it is OPEN. I would suspect that in this situation, the action was probably open a little. That would be a NO CALL.

 

Good luck, GJ

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yuuuuup....MSV...(after checking to make sure that OPEN ain't CLOSED)....next shooter. This is a great example of why an RO needs to hesitate a moment and LOOK at the guns as the shooter hauls mail to the next station. Just take a moment... and yell " LEVER, LEVER, LEVER" might take him 3/4 steps each way, but save a match.

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yuuuuup....MSV...(after checking to make sure that OPEN ain't CLOSED)....next shooter. This is a great example of why an RO needs to hesitate a moment and LOOK at the guns as the shooter hauls mail to the next station. Just take a moment... and yell " LEVER, LEVER, LEVER" might take him 3/4 steps each way, but save a match.

 

 

Exactly. But TO needs to be sure that the lever is FULLY closed. As mentioned above by Joe, if its not FULLY closed, then it is open.

 

Fully closed: MSV

Not FULLY closed: No Call

 

 

..........Widder

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The hard part about making this call as a TO is that the call is based on the ACTION being open or closed. NOT the lever. I have 1 '73 that the lever is open about 1/8" when the action is closed. Not an easy call to make in the heat of a stage with a fast shooter. You do your best as a TO, but sometimes you don't get it right.

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Also, one of those times that it may be risky to call the shooter back because in the frenzy of the stage, the shooter may make a more critical safety error - such as slipping, dropping a gun, or breaking the 170 degree rule.

 

Making the correct call for scoring is not too hard. But since it is complicated to determine, perhaps best left to addressing after the stage is complete.

 

So the real tough part of the call is what the R.O. should do during the stage.

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So the real tough part of the call is what the R.O. should do during the stage.

It sure is. We've talked about this before. The RO has a split second or two to make a call to get the shooter back to the "closed" rifle to check it. As an RO, I try to do it this way:

 

1) watch for action closed when shooter puts the rifle or an adjacent gun down - if I feel it's closed, I call it to shooter's attention right then - "LEVER!". If I don't call it to the shooter's attention, then I will "NO CALL" any attempt to make it a minor safety later on. In other words, if it "looked open to me" at the time the shooter put it or an adjacent gun down, then it is a NO CALL.

 

2) if I made the mistake of telling shooter about the lever and action being closed, and shooter shows me that it's open - give a reshoot. RO just interfered with the shooter's progress.

3) if shooter came back and opened the action, and I saved the shooter from a MSV - good deal.

4) if shooter just ignores the "LEVER" call and does not check the gun, then we'll both (shooter and RO) take a close look before anyone picks up the rifle. Shooter has just decided to earn the MSV if indeed the action is closed.

 

All of this can be interfered with if a "helper" picks up the long gun before shooter can get back to it. Then all bets are off, and RO will have to make the best call he can that gives the benefit of doubt to shooter. Usually, that is "NO CALL" because we can't tell if action was completely closed or not. What I DO NOT want to see happen is for the assistant to come to the RO at the end of the stage, long gun in hand, and say "action is closed - see?" That will always get a "NO CALL" from me, as who knows if the assistant looked at it closely before picking it up. He's not one of the "range officers at the time" (spotter or RO) who is entitled to make a Minor Safety call.

 

Bottom line - it's a split second call, in the heat of the moment while running the stage, that needs to be right as often as we can make it right. And if it is called "wrongly", the mistake should be in the shooter's favor.

 

Good luck, GJ

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I have nothing to add to what GJ (and others) have already stated. ;)/>

 

(FWIW)

 

 

It's worth a lot

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Just how 'closed' was the rifle lever?

LG

 

 

Ready to fire if it was loaded.

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Good post GJ. Being an RO is harder than many think that haven't done it. Sitting back and armchair quarterbacking "after" the smoke clears is one thing........doing it in fractions of a second is another. My hats are off to the folks that willing try their best and are willing to take the heat that comes with it.

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I had a similar situation where I brushed the stock of my DB SG on my way to the next shooting position, causing the SG to “look” closed. AFTER I finished the stage I was informed that my SG was closed and received a MSV. I picked up the SG by the stock and it opened, confirming that it had not been fully closed. I was told that “If it LOOKS closed, then it IS closed” since safety is most important and it didn’t look safe. The MSV stayed. It was just a monthly match so I let it slide and wrote the match off as a learning experience.

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I had a similar situation where I brushed the stock of my DB SG on my way to the next shooting position, causing the SG to “look” closed. AFTER I finished the stage I was informed that my SG was closed and received a MSV. I picked up the SG by the stock and it opened, confirming that it had not been fully closed. I was told that “If it LOOKS closed, then it IS closed” since safety is most important and it didn’t look safe. The MSV stayed. It was just a monthly match so I let it slide and wrote the match off as a learning experience.

 

Unless the top lever of a SxS has been made NONfunctional (an ILLEGAL mod, BTW)...what you did PROVED that the SG was NOT CLOSED (i.e. OPEN).

That MSV SHOULD HAVE been a NO CALL.

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Yep, lever closed...MSV. Happened to me at CaC this year. Shot rifle, shotgun, I guess when I put S/G down, it hit against the lever hard enough to close it. Finished up with the pistols and when I went back to pick up my guns, I saw it an called the RO over to show him. Last stage after shooting all 10 stages that morning. Yeah, it sucks, but it happens...lol

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a good T.O. would have known he the T.O may have bumped sg & closed rifle while moving with shooter BENEFIT OF Doubt TO SHOOTER if he new shooter put down rifle open.

 

A bit hard to discern the message here, but I'm certain I disagree with what I think you're saying.

 

If the TO did bump the shotgun then it's a no call. Otherwise I don't think we need to introduce BoD based on what "may" have happened. Or woulda, coulda, shoulda happened.

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Good post GJ. Being an RO is harder than many think that haven't done it. Sitting back and armchair quarterbacking "after" the smoke clears is one thing........doing it in fractions of a second is another. My hats are off to the folks that willing try their best and are willing to take the heat that comes with it.

 

+1

Ringer

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A bit hard to discern the message here, but I'm certain I disagree with what I think you're saying.

 

If the TO did bump the shotgun then it's a no call. Otherwise I don't think we need to introduce BoD based on what "may" have happened. Or woulda, coulda, shoulda happened.

IF TWO SPOTTERS THINK SHOOTER MAY HAVE MISSED OR MAY HAVE SHOOT OUT OF ORDER MAYBE B.O.D TO SHOOTER T.O COULD HAVE BUMPED rifle .

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IF TWO SPOTTERS THINK SHOOTER MAY HAVE MISSED OR MAY HAVE SHOOT OUT OF ORDER MAYBE B.O.D TO SHOOTER T.O COULD HAVE BUMPED rifle .

 

 

So could little green men ........

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