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Gun Show "Loophole" question


Long Branch Louie

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One of the things currently on the table of gun control folks is closing the so-called gun show loophole. I know there are a lot of people at gun shows that buy and sell privately, albeit not "500 at a time" as Bloomberg stated last week. But if private sales are banned at gun shows, I wonder if that would also mean NO private sales, like what many of us do buying and trading cowboy guns or on local gun forum classifieds. Anybody heard what the language of this proposal includes?

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Don't know the answer to your question LBL.

 

But because different states have various laws concerning the selling of firearms between individuals (or atleast that is what I have been told), it would probably eliminate some interstate sales.

 

In other words (example only), In TN, I can privately sell any of my firearms to John Doe up in ? (northern State) without going thru an FFL. BUT, if I lived in the state of ?, I couldn't do that without going thru an FFL dealer for the transfer.

 

Anyhow, thats just my initial thoughts.

 

You're up awful early...like me...so I hope you have a good day.

 

 

..........Widder

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I don't have a problem going through an FFL for all sales and trades, except most of them now charge an arm and a leg for their services. My local dealer recently raised his rates from $30 per gun to $60. I now drive two hours round-trip to get to my SASS club dealer, and it's worth it. Thanks, Doc!

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We'll have to wait and see the wording but you can bet they'll try everything to get private sales banned. The gunshow "Loophole" is just the start. Give em an inch........

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You guy's don't have anything to worry about, everything is going to be just fine.

 

Joe.

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You guy's don't have anything to worry about, everything is going to be just fine.

 

Joe.

 

Oh Heaven help us all.....I think we're gonna need it! :angry:

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It would not surprise me to see them make an attempt to get the entire country on a system like California. In most cases we can not legally sell any gun without going through an FFL. We can do some transfers ourselves if we are giving a gun to a family member. I will be sorry to see this system moved into all areas of the country, but we have been putting up with it for a long time.

 

At this point long guns are not registered, the only record is at point of sale and although. We are required to go through an FFL to sell or trade any of our long guns in Ca., but due to the fact that they are not registered, and thus not traceable, these exchanges rarely go through an FFL. It would not surprise me to see that change too.

 

Snakebite

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As I understand it closing the "gun show loophole" means that all transfers need to be through an FFL.

 

If this happens then you'll see a new vendor at gunshows: the FFL Transfer Table. For a fee (probably discounted from what you see at a gun shop) a person will handle the transfer, background check, etc. The market will provide a solution. ;)

 

Note that I don't necessarily endorse this idea. But if the people demanding we "close the loophole" think that it will end the market for private firearm sales they are sadly mistaken.

 

SQQ

 

P.S. And what effect, if any, would such a system have on the "pinhookers" who buy and sell out in the parking lot?

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As I understand it closing the "gun show loophole" means that all transfers need to be through an FFL.

 

P.S. And what effect, if any, would such a system have on the "pinhookers" who buy and sell out in the parking lot?

 

The gunshows I've been to usually have an off-duty cop stationed somewhere nearby. Seems to me that if all sales or trades have to go through an FFL, and the cop hears about "black market" trades out in the parking lot, there's going to be a bust or two followed by a felony conviction.

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You guy's don't have anything to worry about, everything is going to be just fine.

 

Joe.

 

Oh splendid - Joe's BIG moment....:angry:/>

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:/>

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There is no "Gun Show Loophole"!!! No more than there is a classified ad loophole. They want to start with banning all private sales and that is all a gun show sale between individuals is!!

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The gunshows I've been to usually have an off-duty cop stationed somewhere nearby. Seems to me that if all sales or trades have to go through an FFL, and the cop hears about "black market" trades out in the parking lot, there's going to be a bust or two followed by a felony conviction.

 

At least the Guns shows in Colorado, their is a sign posted and transaction on gun show grounds must go thru a FFL for background check but that doesn't keep you from exchanging info and then following thru with the deal some where else perfectly legal.

 

KK

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There is no "Gun Show Loophole"!!! No more than there is a classified ad loophole. They want to start with banning all private sales and that is all a gun show sale between individuals is!!

 

Yup.

 

Folks, don't lose sight of the real reason for this. They aren't after "protecting the children", they have no desire to reduce crime. They're only desire is to disarm us. The reason is simple, an armed citizenry is the only thing that stands between them and absolute power. They want it. They can't have it while we are armed!

 

We must resist, through all legal means at our disposal. Write your congress critters. Early, and often. Send e-mail, send snail mail, send faxes. Do it all. Get it done.

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I don't have a problem going through an FFL for all sales and trades, except most of them now charge an arm and a leg for their services. My local dealer recently raised his rates from $30 per gun to $60. I now drive two hours round-trip to get to my SASS club dealer, and it's worth it. Thanks, Doc!

 

Why am I NOT surprised..

 

Remember that compromise is a wonderful thing. Could have all of your guns?

Well, lets compromise, send me all but one.....

 

 

Folks, don't lose sight of the real reason for this. They aren't after "protecting the children", they have no desire to reduce crime. They're only desire is to disarm us. The reason is simple, an armed citizenry is the only thing that stands between them and absolute power. They want it. They can't have it while we are armed!

 

We must resist, through all legal means at our disposal. Write your congress critters. Early, and often. Send e-mail, send snail mail, send faxes. Do it all. Get it done.

 

Well said, Doc!

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Yup.

 

Folks, don't lose sight of the real reason for this. They aren't after "protecting the children", they have no desire to reduce crime. They're only desire is to disarm us. The reason is simple, an armed citizenry is the only thing that stands between them and absolute power. They want it. They can't have it while we are armed!

 

We must resist, through all legal means at our disposal. Write your congress critters. Early, and often. Send e-mail, send snail mail, send faxes. Do it all. Get it done.

 

I agree, Bloomberg told more lies Sunday morning on "Meet the Press" than Pinnochio. What REALLY bothers me is the press trying to paint gun owners as people who don't care what happened to those children as long as we get to keep our guns....

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I think you'll see just exactly what it says: no trades/sales between private parties at gun shows. A background check and 4473 will be required.

 

Private party transactions are STATE issues and I don't think the state wants Feds involved in their business. Besides, who would know? Don't legislate something that is unenforceable...although I know that hasn't stopped Congress before.

 

Buy ammo!

 

If you need rounds that you don't reload, get them now. Prices will be sky high next year.

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Snakebite, I'm sure you're aware that California Governor Jerry Brown signed in to law on Oct 9, 2011, Long Gun Registration, to go in to effect Jan 1, 2014.

-----------

AB 809 (Feuer, Democrat, West Hollywood): Long-gun registration: SIGNED INTO LAW. In a nutshell, AB 809 mandates long-gun registration, starting January 1st, 2014. The bill does this, essentially, by treating long guns the same as handguns. The bill requires FFLs to make long gun sales information available to the California Dept. of Justice, and imposes new requirements on persons bringing long guns into the state. AB 809 also burdens “peace officers” with responsibilities for the compilation and retention of long-gun information.

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I'm quite sure that over regulation along these lines will create far more lawlessness than it prevents with regards to firearms currently in circulation. In the end, it is senselessness.

 

Might be time to look into a nice compound bow and stock up on ammo before that has to be registered.

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I haven't seen any currently proposed language on the gun show loophole. When this was under discussion back during the Clinton administration, the proposed language would have turned essentially any gathering of 20 or more people where guns were present into a "gun show," would have required a permit to hold said "gun show" and would have required the full NICS check, etc., on any sale done either at the show or within some set amount of time (what's in my head is a month, but I could be remembering long), if it occurred between any two people present at the "gun show."

 

So your local monthly cowboy event would require a gun show permit, just for openers.

 

It's probably bootless to attempt to have a discussion with people who want to close the so-called gun-show loophole. They aren't at all concerned about closing a loophole, a loophole which basically doesn't exist. What they're trying to do is limit your ability to buy and sell guns. Once they've closed the "loophole" and limited magazine capacity, they'll move on to another "problem" (possibly "concealability.") The goal is to ban guns in a series of incremental steps. You don't boil a frog by putting it in hot water -- it will jump out. You put the frog in water and gradually increase the heat -- by the time he realizes its going to boil, he's already cooked.

 

I hope we're all smarter than frogs.

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"I hope we're all smarter than frogs."

 

well Joe Biden is in charge so.......ribbit

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I think you'll see just exactly what it says: no trades/sales between private parties at gun shows. A background check and 4473 will be required.

 

Private party transactions are STATE issues and I don't think the state wants Feds involved in their business. Besides, who would know? Don't legislate something that is unenforceable...although I know that hasn't stopped Congress before.

 

Buy ammo!

 

If you need rounds that you don't reload, get them now. Prices will be sky high next year.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they go after all private sales once they close down gun shows.

Prices are climbing already. Stocks are really low. After they restrict ammo sales, they'll go after reloading supplies.

Got a permit for thet Dillon son? You're in a heap of trouble.

I feel like I'm in avalance country and somebody is setting off cherry bombs. :angry:

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I for one would be for closing FTF sales. If you are a law abiding citizen why would you be against a 4473 background check? If stopping the FTF reduces just one mentally ill person from getting a firearm and going out and doing what happened last week we would all be better off. Just my opinion and I know a lot of people do not agree as they feel it’s a slippery slope.

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Can anyone really specify by documented definition what exactly is a so-called "gunshow loophole"? Seems like it's a moving target depending on what level of restriction is desired by anti-gun politicians. I always figured a gun loophole was a hole in the wall or door that you aimed your rifle through when the indians were attacking the fort.;)/>

 

 

Boothill

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Yup.

 

Folks, don't lose sight of the real reason for this. They aren't after "protecting the children", they have no desire to reduce crime. They're only desire is to disarm us. The reason is simple, an armed citizenry is the only thing that stands between them and absolute power. They want it. They can't have it while we are armed!

 

We must resist, through all legal means at our disposal. Write your congress critters. Early, and often. Send e-mail, send snail mail, send faxes. Do it all. Get it done.

Amen Brother !

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Gun Show Loophole / Stuff

 

If they require all sales to go through an FFL there are a lot of downers but at least one benefit.

- It would be a little harder to move stolen guns (cowboy or otherwise).

 

There must be a market somewhere … as I have several friends that have had their cowboy guns stolen … and I have heard/read at least one person say that they pick up “the good ones” when they are at shoots … and take them back home to sell to the “cowboys”. (really??!?).

 

Selling guns that someone just “got from another cowboy a long time ago” would not be legal (even if the person who sold it to you was just as shocked “as you” that one got confiscated when you re-sold it on the Wire and mailed it to a receiving FFL … who did a serial number check … and turned it in).

 

If they “then” (like I saw in a recent Australia article) required that “all” guns belong to somebody (be registered to a live person/corporation) … then someone in possession of such a maverick would be in trouble too.

 

Of course … there would have to be some rules to keep the pricing in line etc … this would be a lot of work … not only for the FFLs but for those responding to serial number checks and background checks.

 

Which … I still wonder why … “anyone” should not have access to a serial number search … (either thru an online agent or directly). What am I missing here??!!? (we live in a computer age … right??)

 

This alone would allow “anyone” to determine if they had just been sold a stolen gun (and if you determined you had … you would probably be motivated to promptly call the police).

 

There is nothing wrong with “going to the table” … I hope someone goes to the table for us to help keep the facts straight.

 

There might be some things that could be done here that really would make things better for all sides … and not just push something useless through just to be able to say they did something …

 

IMHO anyhow …

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Snakebite, I'm sure you're aware that California Governor Jerry Brown signed in to law on Oct 9, 2011, Long Gun Registration, to go in to effect Jan 1, 2014.

-----------

AB 809 (Feuer, Democrat, West Hollywood): Long-gun registration: SIGNED INTO LAW. In a nutshell, AB 809 mandates long-gun registration, starting January 1st, 2014. The bill does this, essentially, by treating long guns the same as handguns. The bill requires FFLs to make long gun sales information available to the California Dept. of Justice, and imposes new requirements on persons bringing long guns into the state. AB 809 also burdens “peace officers” with responsibilities for the compilation and retention of long-gun information.

Thats not all CH.In the Sacramento Bee today State Sen.Kevin de Leon D-LA,proposed Tuesday to require ammunition buyers to purchase annual permits that would cost about $50 and that would include a yearly background check.Every gun owner in Calif knows about this guy and he is bad news when it comes to gun ownership.

 

State Sen. Leland Yee D-SF,promised bills that would penalize Californians who fail to use gun locks they are required to possess, and would mandate that gun owners renew their registrations annually.And there are more bills in the works.This is going to be a busy year for the NRA and I don't even know if they can help us on some of this.

 

HS

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:ph34r: Doc Shapiro has it right, short and not-so-sweet. WE stand in the way of their (absolute) exercise of power.

 

All the verbiage is just window dressing.... and smoke screen.

 

And isn't it funny-- none of the media 'notices' the bullying of the American citizenry to give up some more of their freedom which is being engaged in by the politicians. Probably because they are complicit.

 

I thought I'd be dead and gone when our country reached this state of affairs.

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I for one would be for closing FTF sales. If you are a law abiding citizen why would you be against a 4473 background check? If stopping the FTF reduces just one mentally ill person from getting a firearm and going out and doing what happened last week we would all be better off. Just my opinion and I know a lot of people do not agree as they feel it’s a slippery slope.

Think about this. You won't be able to sell a Vaquero to a SASS pard you know well. NO ftf means no ftf sales, regardless if it's your brother inlaw who's a retired cop or the clergyman who wants a gun for protection of his flock and hasn't got the money for a full retail piece.

It's a slippery slope indeed..

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Yes, it is way past high time for any and all fence sitters to defecate or vacate the receptacle and join the NRA NOW. I have been a life member for a very long time and believe with all my heart that if it weren't for the NRA we would not have a gun left to our name now, not even our beloved cowboy guns.

 

There are many many hunters who are not with us. They see no use for evil black rifles and actually hate them and want them banned because of the negative publicity of them. They think if they throw the EBRs to the wolves the wolves will leave their bolt actions and birdguns alone. They are wrong. The bolt gun is a deadly sniper weapon to the antis and the shotgun is a deadly street sweeper. They want them all.

 

Sooner or later and I hope so much later I am dirt napping they will win. They outnumber us and with this latest tragedy their numbers swell and they are emboldened. Our enemies know just how to eat an elephant. One bite at a time. Eventually the carcass is reduced to bleached bones.

 

I very much like the idea of a march on Washington. We have been complacent and silent too long. It is time to make our voices heard. So far they are not listening but with a million or more outside the gates of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue...

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Som-a you people just don't get it.....

 

'No one needs a high-powered high capacity gun'. There is NO functional difference between a Remington 7400 (semi auto rifle) with three ten round magazines (or six five rounders) and an AR-15 with all the 'evil' accessories and a thirty round magazine.

 

'Requiring all firearms sales to go through dealers will prevent criminals from transferring guns.' 'Eliminating FTF transfers will find all those stolen guns.'

 

Are you people serious? Drinking some of that left-handed tea, are we? HELLLOOOOO....CRIMINALS DO NOT FOLLOW THE LAW!!!

 

Criminals do not buy guns at gun shops. They STEAL them or buy/trade for them from others who STEAL them. The number of straw purchases, etc IS INCONSEQUENTIAL.

 

Requiring all firearms sales to go through a dealer is MEANINGLESS unless there is registration! Oh sure, eventually, as time went on the likelihood of getting caught would increase but for the near future, there would be NOTHING to prevent two guys from 'making the deal' and being able to claim the actual sale was 'before' the law.

 

Gun show loophole...there is no such thing! The media WANTS people to believe that because it suits their purposes.

 

Assault rifle...there is no such thing. 'They' have managed to deamonize these black rifles the same way they did with 'saturday night specials' in the 1970's. The laws that were enacted back then for those weapons DID NOTHING to reduce crime. The AWB of 1994-2004 DID NOTHING to reduce crime.

 

Make all the laws you like; criminals will not follow them. Ban all assault weapons...ok. Only the 'government has them. So all a criminal has to do is take a one-shooter or a brick or bat and take out some government type and now that CRIMINAL have his assault weapon...

 

Oh, they'll have grace periods and 'grandfather clauses' and there will be much adoo about doing something but it will DO NOTHING TO REDUCE CRIME OR PREVENT CRAZY PEOPLE FROM DOING WHAT CRAZIES DO.

 

Our problem is deeper than the tool.

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I for one would be for closing FTF sales. If you are a law abiding citizen why would you be against a 4473 background check? If stopping the FTF reduces just one mentally ill person from getting a firearm and going out and doing what happened last week we would all be better off. Just my opinion and I know a lot of people do not agree as they feel it's a slippery slope.

 

None of this will stop a low-life who steals a gun, from selling it on the street for 2 bag of smack to another creep... or to a kid who couldn't buy it legal in the first place.

 

Besides that, these kids who go into schools and murder other kids, couldn't legally own a gun, they're too young! It's got nothing to do with FTF FFL sales or not. They're stealing their parent's guns or getting them through straw sales....

 

But that won't stop "mass" murders, anyway...

 

remember...the deadliest school-related massacre in American history happened in 1927, at an elementary school in Bath, Mich. A school board member named Andrew Kehoe, upset over a burdensome property tax, wired the building with dynamite and set it off in the morning of May 18. Kehoe's actions killed 45 people, 38 of whom were children.

 

Osaka June 8, 2001, at Ikeda Elementary School, 37-year-old former janitor Mamoru Takuma entered the school armed with a kitchen knife and began stabbing numerous school children and teachers. He killed eight children, mostly between the ages of seven and eight, and seriously wounded thirteen other children and two teachers.

 

June 11, 1964: Cologne school massacre. Armed with an insecticide sprayer converted into a flamethrower, a lance and a homebuilt mace, 42-year-old Walter Seifert entered the Katholische Volksschule and opened fire on the girls playing in the courtyard. He then knocked in classroom windows with his mace and fired inside. Eight children and two teachers died, twenty children and two teachers survived with very severe burns.

 

22 kids were injured in a "mass stabbing" in China. Police arrested a man who went on a stabbing rampage. Thankfully none of the children were killed. This isn't the first time this happens in China and the BBC lists that 20 children have lost their lives due to this increasing knife violence in schools

 

A series of uncoordinated mass stabbings, hammer attacks, and cleaver attacks in the People's Republic of China began in March 2010. The spate of attacks left at least 21 dead and some 90 injured. Analysts have blamed mental health problems caused by rapid social change for the rise in these kind of mass murder and murder-suicide incidents

The Akihabara massacre was an incident of mass murder that took place on Sunday, June 8, 2008, in the Akihabara shopping quarter for electronics, video games and comics in Sotokanda, Chiyoda, Tokyo, Japan. At 12:33 p.m. JST, a man hit a crowd with a truck, eventually killing three people and injuring two; he then stabbed at least 12 people using a dagger (initially reported as a survival knife), killing four people and injuring eight.

 

It ain't the guns that kill people... If someone's gonna do it, they'll find a way. Cain used a rock.

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Both Britain and Australia enacted strict gun controls (stricter than what they had at the time) after shooting incidents. Crime did not go down, it went up. Gee, I wonder.....

 

Those who call the NRA extreme for supporting gun rights need only look to the lessons of history. In the last century a legendary phychopath named Adolf Hitler came to power in a small european country. He managed to convice his countrymen to follow his lead...how? Ask yourself HOW a group of people could take control of an entire country and then target specific groups of people for extermination and THEN embark on a course of world domination when that group (Nazi's) was a small segment of the population. (90 million population in Germany, party membership @ 8.5 million) Guess what was one of his first acts as commander in chief? He enacted gun control...registration followed by confiscation. Gee, that worked out so well.

 

Now ask yourself how it could happen here. See below.

 

Those who trade liberty for safety deserve neither. (I didn't make that one up, but its very true)

 

 

First they came for the communists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

 

Then they came for the socialists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

 

Then they came for the trade unionists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

 

Then they came for the jews,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

 

Then they came for the catholics,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a catholic.

 

Then they came for me,

and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

Martin Niemoller

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Som-a you people just don't get it.....

 

'No one needs a high-powered high capacity gun'. There is NO functional difference between a Remington 7400 (semi auto rifle) with three ten round magazines (or six five rounders) and an AR-15 with all the 'evil' accessories and a thirty round magazine.

 

'Requiring all firearms sales to go through dealers will prevent criminals from transferring guns.' 'Eliminating FTF transfers will find all those stolen guns.'

 

Are you people serious? Drinking some of that left-handed tea, are we? HELLLOOOOO....CRIMINALS DO NOT FOLLOW THE LAW!!!

 

Criminals do not buy guns at gun shops. They STEAL them or buy/trade for them from others who STEAL them. The number of straw purchases, etc IS INCONSEQUENTIAL.

 

Requiring all firearms sales to go through a dealer is MEANINGLESS unless there is registration! Oh sure, eventually, as time went on the likelihood of getting caught would increase but for the near future, there would be NOTHING to prevent two guys from 'making the deal' and being able to claim the actual sale was 'before' the law.

 

Gun show loophole...there is no such thing! The media WANTS people to believe that because it suits their purposes.

 

Assault rifle...there is no such thing. 'They' have managed to deamonize these black rifles the same way they did with 'saturday night specials' in the 1970's. The laws that were enacted back then for those weapons DID NOTHING to reduce crime. The AWB of 1994-2004 DID NOTHING to reduce crime.

 

Make all the laws you like; criminals will not follow them. Ban all assault weapons...ok. Only the 'government has them. So all a criminal has to do is take a one-shooter or a brick or bat and take out some government type and now that CRIMINAL have his assault weapon...

 

Oh, they'll have grace periods and 'grandfather clauses' and there will be much adoo about doing something but it will DO NOTHING TO REDUCE CRIME OR PREVENT CRAZY PEOPLE FROM DOING WHAT CRAZIES DO.

 

Our problem is deeper than the tool.

 

 

I gotta chuckle. You are so right. My sweetie has taken to the dark side that it's the gun's fault because of the emotional side of the recent tragic events. Yep, tension is high in this household. When I explained to her that I could go downstairs and pull my AR-15 (and oh-by-the-way-dear, the AR does NOT stand for "assault rifle, it stands for "Armalite Rifle, 15th model" - I got the slumped shoulders and crest-fallen look of "Really??? Oh Boy, did I ever assume wrong") and my Dad's old Remington 740 from the early 60's and show her that mechanically, there was absolutely no difference except that the 740 was of pretty wood and blued steel and the the AR was "Evil black plastic and metal". Each one is a shoulder fired, gas operated, magazine-fed, semi-automatic rifle. And oh-by-the-way, this old 740 in .30-06 has a much more powerful round and far more effective range than this evil, black, sinister, demonized, bayonet-lugged, pistol-gripped rifle. But, because it's been around since the early sixties and is not black, has pretty wood, and is considered a "hunting rifle", there has never been a hue and cry for its abolishment. I must say, it was priceless to see the look on her face of "How can that be? You mean they are the same?" It was fun watching the light bulb come on/

 

Boothill

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