Arm and train every school principal

[Trigger Mike]

Just think, since these evil cowards like to shoot unarmed and defenseless innocent people then if we armed the school staff and taught them how to use an AR-15 and semi auto pistols then many would not only not go there to commit suicide and murder but if some did they would be stopped long before one single child was harmed. Supposedly this coward from Ct had 10 minutes to roam the school, that is eleven minutes too long. Every principal should have a handgun on their person as well as the rest of the staff, and at least an AR-15 in the office and carried on the back of every janitor. Cowards fear others having guns, lest they not become famous for their evil cowardice and instead just another statistic.

 

It also seems a lot of these nuts were a failure at something and not able to fulfill a dream, i.e. tim mcvea failed to become a green beret, the dc snipers were not snipers at all, just wanna bees. The colorado fool had some issues keeping him from success, same for the friday nitwit. A victim with an AR-15 becomes a preventer of violence and less likely to become a victim.

[Apache Hawk 60642]

My white grandpaw said dis....."Da state should issue a gun of choice along wif one bullet when dey issue a driver's license an dey could kill just one person wifout goin' to jail. "

 

 

Make ya think, won't it ? Maybe I should have treated her nicer .........

 

I say give them training on the weapon of their choice when they git der driver's license. Din let thin' take der course.

 

Keep a AR or AK in each janitors locker an one in the office.

[Ugly, SASS #18106]

While I like your idea (similar to a couple that I have had recently) I don't think it would fly because it seems that most of the people who are teaching our children are flaming liberals who would soil their diapers is they ever saw a gun in person much less have to touch one; I don't think that I would have much faith in those types of people being much of a detriment to an armed attacker. Granted, I shoot with a few school teachers and have met a few more out on various ranges but, unfortunately, these folks are in the minority.

[J-BAR #18287]

One way to stop mass murders is to not provide mass targets.

 

Our present educational system was designed in the early 1800's. Maybe it's time to stop gathering young children in large groups to "educate" them. Think about how little time the teacher spends with an individual student in a typical classroom. Maybe online classrooms are the way to go...kid goes to work with mom or dad and sits in a desk of his own at the office...I don;t know.

 

But boxing them up in a building that can be broken into so easily simply is not acceptable. If the government requires kids to attend school, then the government is obligated to provide protection.

 

...and as I think of the Principals at the schools my children attended, no way in H##L would I trust them to take out a threat.

[Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663]

As has been said, sometimes the only way to stop a bad person with a gun is a good person with a gun.

 

Gun free zones are killing fields.

[Apache Hawk 60642]

As has been said, sometimes the only way to stop a bad person with a gun is a good person with a gun.

 

Gun free zones are killing fields.

 

 

 

You are so rat Birdgun !

 

 

 

[Trigger Mike]

One way to stop mass murders is to not provide mass targets.

 

Our present educational system was designed in the early 1800's. Maybe it's time to stop gathering young children in large groups to "educate" them. Think about how little time the teacher spends with an individual student in a typical classroom. Maybe online classrooms are the way to go...kid goes to work with mom or dad and sits in a desk of his own at the office...I don;t know.

 

But boxing them up in a building that can be broken into so easily simply is not acceptable. If the government requires kids to attend school, then the government is obligated to provide protection.

 

...and as I think of the Principals at the schools my children attended, no way in H##L would I trust them to take out a threat.

Actually the online school is what we do. Our state offers a state run charter school on line, with a certified teacher that meets an hour or two a week on line, the curriculum is mailed to us each year and test are taken online for the teacher to view as well as recorded classes, and teacher conferences where the children read aloud on the phone to the teacher, and the CRCT test are taken like the rest of the school children. My wife reviews the work and teaches the rest of the time and has deadlines for subjects. They write essays and mail them to the teacher. They meet often with other kids at a museum, playground etc. It is a much better way to go. With high unemployment I do not see why more don't do it.

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

The Israelies have coped with this quite a while. It might serve us to examine and implement their model at least in part. While the big city schools appear to have some safeguards a lot of rural schools operate as if nothing would ever happen...they don't even lock their cars much less the school doors. On the other hand there are some Oklahoma teachers who might just keep an ace up their sleeve :rolleyes:/> and regs be damned.

[Marshal Rusty Bore SASS#22739]

Ok I work for a private school. I run the day to day maintenance of a square block campus with four buildings and 585 students three years old to eighth grade. We are a very conservative school. My Principal is a wonderful person and an excellent Administrator. I have the highest respect for her. I firmly believe she would not be able to kill someone if needed.

 

An AR15 on the back of every janitor???? Ever done maintenance work? Unless someone comes up with a picatinny rail that holds a broom and a dust pan that just isn't going to work. It won't belong before that AR is standing in a corner while Joe Custodian is plunging a toilet and some kid walks in and we have an accident/incident.

 

Conceal carry by the Staff? I work with the greatest bunch of teachers/staff I could have the pleasure too. There are possibly three including myself I think capable of doing so. I wouldn't be surprised to find out this is the norm for most schools.

 

Let the teachers teach but train them to be vigilant. Security should be left to professionals and they should be at the front doors of all our schools. My greatest fear tho is that when the schools ask for the money to do so the taxpayers won't allow it.

 

On inauguration day 13,000 extra troops will protect our President ( doesn't matter what party he's from) from harm. Who will be protecting our children that day?

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

This is not a suggestion likely to be adopted.

 

Nor is eliminating the classroom. Do you realize how many classrooms there are versus how many students are shot at school? Hundreds of thousands to one, to be sure.

 

I say ban school buses, crossing streets on the way to school, and field trips. Are are far more likely to kill than firearm violence at schools.

 

I love it-- eliminate schools! Arm all our local teachers! (That'd be something....) Brilliant!

[Apache Hawk 60642]

This is not a suggestion likely to be adopted.

 

Nor is eliminating the classroom. Do you realize how many classrooms there are versus how many students are shot at school? Hundreds of thousands to one, to be sure.

 

I say ban school buses, crossing streets on the way to school, and field trips. Are are far more likely to kill than firearm violence at schools.

 

I love it-- eliminate schools! Arm all our local teachers! (That'd be something....) Brilliant!

 

 

Don't be so sarcastic ! Won't help here.

 

 

Folks here are just venting..........

 

 

 

[EE Taft]

The Israelies have coped with this quite a while. It might serve us to examine and implement their model at least in part. While the big city schools appear to have some safeguards a lot of rural schools operate as if nothing would ever happen...they don't even lock their cars much less the school doors. On the other hand there are some Oklahoma teachers who might just keep an ace up their sleeve :rolleyes:/>/>/> and regs be damned.

 

Sam, I know for a fact there's more than one teacher around here that keeps the same ace up the sleeve. ;)/>

 

After this week I don't think they will change there minds anytime soon.

 

~EE Taft~

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

The Israelis are in a small country that is surrounded by national enemies who have regularly sent terrorists to kill civilians. They have to be security-conscious in a way were don't have to.

 

Our bigger issue is what are the sources of these insane rampages, which, while not altogether new, are in fact much more frequent than they once were. And is there something to be done, apart from deploring the situation. Maybe not, I think.

 

But this is what everybody is worried about, wherever they stand on the issues that may concern us. The world is not simply divided into the idiots and the wise as some folks think.

[Smokey Shayne]

Call me simple minded...but I would think that properly locked and secured doors would solve some of the problems. Or at least slow down any aggressor until an on duty officer at the school would have time to respond to the threat

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

Call me simple minded...but I would think that properly locked and secured doors would solve some of the problems. Or at least slow down any aggressor until an on duty officer at the school would have time to respond to the threat

 

Lot of em have big showy windows that can be shot out. Isn't that about what happened?

[Pulp, SASS#28319]

I'm a board member at our school. My sup't recently told me Oklahoma administrators can carry concealed if the board approves a policy stating so. Not sure if it is actually true, but am gonna find out tomorrow. I would insist that additional firearms and situational training would be mandatory if an administrator wanted to carry. I'm also gonna look into structural changes at building entrances where visitors must be directed to an office window, and be "buzzed" into the building if they have a valid reason to be there, and a panic button in each office that goes directly to the local police.

 

I only have a couple of months left on the board, so I've got to get on the stick.

[Rye Miles #13621]

I say they should allow any teachers, administrators, and other school personnel who have CCL's to carry in the classroom.

 

 

Rye

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

Before people in schools get armed and trained, those willing, would need to be carefully evaluated (body and mind) to make sure can and will actually "stand up to the task" if the time comes. As inferred above, I think very few would be up to the task.

 

A better recourse in my opinion would be to have professional people in the school who are there fore that task and not distracted by other duties.

[Utah Bob #35998]

Having worked with and known a number of teachers in my time I just think the backgrounds and personalities of these people simply would make them poor choices as armed defenders. They are wonderful people but they are not warriors. There are of course exceptions but I don't think arming teachers is a viable solution. The school resource police officer is a more sound concept and works well in many areas. Pointing to the Isaeli system isn't really germane. They grow up with the knowledge that they are surrounded by enemies who have been bent on their destruction for thousands of years. That mindset makes most of them ready to do whatever is necessary for survival. That mindset only exists here for a few weeks or so after such an event as this. Then it fades into complacency.

 

As to the shooters being cowards, that's not really applicable. They have all been proven to be seriously mentally ill. Their perception of the world around them is so flawed and twisted that words like coward and criminal don't really apply. They are more like a serious disease that needs to be isolated and stopped. They seem to have no fear of death. The media always searches vainly for their motive. They're motivated simply by their diseased mind. The reason they choose targets like malls and schools is that people are congregated there and they think they will be able to kill many more people in a short period of time. Sometimes they are out for revenge against a perceived wrong that wass done to them by a group. Sometimes they just strike blindly. I don't know if the presence of armed security would deter them, but it would certainly end their rampage.

 

But regardless of what we thing, I believe the push is going to be for sweeping and ineffective laws rather than increased emphasis on mental health care. I just watched a psychiatrist talking about how mental health is on the bottom of the barrel in the health care industry. I suspect there is more money spent on cosmetic surgery than mental health research and care in this country. That's a more serious societal problem than the availability of firearms.

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

Having worked with and known a number of teachers in my time I just think the backgrounds and personalities of these people simply would make them poor choices as armed defenders. They are wonderful people but they are not warriors. There are of course exceptions but I don't think arming teacher is a viable solution. The school resource police officer is a more sound concept and works well in many areas. Pointing to the Isaeli system isn't really germain. They grow up with the knowledge that they are surrounded by enemies who have been bent on their destruction for thousands of years. That mindset makes most of them ready to do whatever is necessary for survival. That mindset only exists her for a few weeks or so after such an event as this. Then it fades into complacency.

 

As to the shooters being cowards, that's not really applicable. They have all been proven to be seriously mentally ill. Their perception of the world around them is so flawed and twisted that words like coward and criminal don't really apply. They are more like a serious disease that needs to be isolated and stopped. They seem to have no fear of death. The media always searches vainly for their motive. They're motivated simply by their diseased mind. The reason they choose targets like malls and schools is that peole are congregated there and they think they will be able to kill many more people in a short period of time. Sometimes they are out for revenge against a perceived wrong that wass done to them by a group. Sometimes they just strike blindly. I don't know if the presence of armed security would deter them, but it would certainly end their rampage.

 

But regardless of what we thing, I believe the push is going to be for sweeping and ineffective laws rather than increased emphasis on mental health care. I just watched a psychiatrist talking about how mental health is on the bottom of the barrel in the health care industry. I suspect there is more money spent on cosmetic surgery than mental health research and care in this country. That's a more serious societal problem than the availability of firearms.

 

+1

[Charlie Harley, #14153]

What UB said.

[Eamon Chute]

Having worked with and known a number of teachers in my time I just think the backgrounds and personalities of these people simply would make them poor choices as armed defenders. They are wonderful people but they are not warriors. There are of course exceptions but I don't think arming teachers is a viable solution. The school resource police officer is a more sound concept and works well in many areas.

 

 

The SROs at our station are truly wonderful people and amongst the most dedicated officers I know. They have to be! Some of them will NEVER ask to transfer to other duty.

 

That said, they are frequently left out-of-the-loop at virtually every school they work with. They are frustrated beyond belief.

 

I have stories. If interested UB email me.

 

 

EC

[Ugly, SASS #18106]

There was something posted on facebook that went something like this: "I can't bring a weapon into a prison to kill a worthless P.O.S. so why should worthless P.O.S.s be able to get into a school and kill harmless children?" Yes, it's terrible that schools might have to be like a prison but, I'd be willing to pay higher taxes for something like that to protect my grandchildren and other innocents.

[EE Taft]

I've thought on this pretty hard over the weekend.....and I've talked to my kids........and I've come to this.

 

I might be very wrong.......but here I go.

 

Escalator.......

 

We've all seen them.....except maybe a select few, but we all know what they are.

 

 

Ya know what I hate when shopping in a mall (other than shopping in a mall)? Escalators....Ya get on one and about four steps up, you realize what you needed was on the lower floor all along. So.....your first thought is to turn and walk back down....Hmmmm, that don't work.....Then you could try running......you get worn out and stop on an inevitable ride to the top.

 

......anyone see where I'm going?

 

I talked to my kids this weekend and asked them a few things. They are ten (my boys) and getting ready to turn eleven. They are a lot like me......kinda wise beyond their years. I asked them what they would think of teachers carrying guns....They said "It would be scary! What if the teacher tried to stop a killer only to make them madder? What if they miss? What if they can't do what they need to? What if they don't want to shoot?

 

I told them their answers and questions were very good.

 

I asked what they thought about police officers and armed guards. They said they worried about how that such person might treat the students.... "Would they worry about us because we like to shoot and hunt with you, Dad? Would they treat us like we were bad?"

 

I asked them about more secure schools.....Bars over the windows.....no windows??? "How would you feel about going to a school that has a tall barbed wire fence around the playground and armed guards patroling to grounds? How would you feel if you weren't allowed to go outside?

 

They said they don't go outside enough as it is.........David, who has been reading a book about Al Capone (a fiction book about a child on the Rock living with his prison guard dad in an apartment.) said "Dad, it would be like going to school in a prison!"

 

I asked him what he thought of that........."I wouldn't like it! I wouldn't want to go!"

 

Children don't understand our reasons for extra safety.....they want to run and play and be free. They don't understand why this happened. The won't understand anything different if we bar them in..........and we won't feel secure in their safety until we do. Where we feel they are safer......they could feel locked down.....maybe even punished.

 

 

 

 

So......our ideas of safety do have an effect on our children's feelings.......in some way wouldn't there be a possability that such measures could have a negative effect on their overall mental and physical health?

 

 

 

I want them safe too.......More than you could know! But, how far do we go with that? So far that we unwittingly escalate the mental breakdown in children to the point that their morale sinks? all in the name of safety!

 

 

 

Me, you, all of us, conservative or liberal, the country as a whole......we are escalating......we don't have the on/off switch to the "escalator" in our hand so we can't shut it off........Do we run as fast as we can to the bottom until we are worn out and have to stop? Do we run to the top fast and recklessly?Do we stand still and endure the ride as it comes?

 

When we get to the top, summit, climax.....what ever you want to call it......where will we be.....Heaven? Hell? Detroit? Macy's?........or right back where we started from in the first place?

 

 

 

I've vented about this over the weekend.......we all have.......we know gun control is NOT the answer.......others don't......or won't accept it.

 

 

 

I don't know the answer.......I'd hate to jump to conclusions..........and I worry where this ride we call life is taking us.

 

 

 

Please.....my friends......Try to sit back a bit in a quiet room and rest, relax, be in peace, and think of those lost and what we should do about this before jumping to conclusions.

 

A wise man once told me personally "Life is not a game. it's real.....But a good game of skill can give you fundimental skills needed in life.....that game is more than any mere toy."~ My Father.....I don't know if that means anything in this situation....but I keep going back to that talk in my mind.

 

 

Merry Christmas to twenty sweet little angels, who now are embraced by the loving arms that are the reason for the season.

 

~EE Taft~

 

 

 

PS: this statement is in no way influence by the talking heads......I've read the news on the internet. I don't have cable or satelite. I refuse to jump into a drowning pool of 24/7 media.........This is from my quiet time with my family, my prayers, and my quiet time alone with God........nothing more.

[Michigan Slim]

My son's school has a "Resource Officer" at the school during all times of attendance. He is an on duty City officer, armed with issued handgun, shotgun in car, AR in trunk. Say what you want about arming with an AR but I'd sure feel better with him sweeping a building with that shotgun, if the time comes.

[Rye Miles #13621]

Before people in schools get armed and trained, those willing, would need to be carefully evaluated (body and mind) to make sure can and will actually "stand up to the task" if the time comes. As inferred above, I think very few would be up to the task.

 

A better recourse in my opinion would be to have professional people in the school who are there fore that task and not distracted by other duties.

 

 

They could be trained in crisis management, After all someone who has a CCL is usually a shooter and knows how to handle firearms safely. Read the post on the WIRE about Texas arming their teachers who have CCL's. It was dated 2008 so I assume the teachers in Texas are already packing'!

 

 

Rye

 

 

[Utah Bob #35998]

My son's school has a "Resource Officer" at the school during all times of attendance. He is an on duty City officer, armed with issued handgun, shotgun in car, AR in trunk. Say what you want about arming with an AR but I'd sure feel better with him sweeping a building with that shotgun, if the time comes.

In a building that might contain a lot of kids I think I'd prefer the accuracy of the AR over a scattergun. Plus some of these nuts use body armor.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

I support schools that are willing to let teachers who WANT and feel COMFORTABLE to CCW (and have special training) have them to defend our/their children. All teachers should have the responsibility to PROTECT the children. Some, but obviously not all, teachers CAN and DO have the mindset ability to be PROTECTORS using a firearm to do so. Lumping ALL teachers as not being armed 'warriors' is fallacy. ALOT of teachers, including the principle in Newtown, would put their LIFE on the line for the children ( the principle, teachers, and other adults did! - They are warriors in my book). CCW for our teachers, and/or a tax payer funded security guard or team is something I would have no problem endorsing.

 

Will this make the world perfect? No - does it give our children a better chance to survive this kind of vicious evil? Yes.

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:/>/>

[Michigan Slim]

In a building that might contain a lot of kids I think I'd prefer the accuracy of the AR over a scattergun. Plus some of these nuts use body armor.

 

Aye. Good point. However, after seeing the firearms skills of some of our local PD,s, accuracy is lacking to say the least. But THAT could be a whole 'nother thread! Twelve 00 buck pellets hold fairly tight at the ranges I'm thinkin and carry a lot of mind changing energy out to 40 yards or so, with penetration (over?) not up to .223 FMJ levels. And less spray and pray with the 'ol Glocks too. Watched a car-hit deer take seven rounds from an officer a couple years ago. Good thing he only had 16 in his pistol. Distance: Two feet+-!

[Good Hands SASS #8247]

I understand that SASS is a shooting hobby, and we all like guns and are comfortable with guns. Not everyone is, and to add that requirement to being a principal or a teacher is just wrong. Why aren't we all in law enforcement? Because not everyone is geared for it despite enjoying shooting. This isn't the 1800's, we aren't going backwards, we need to be forward looking and thinking. And most importantly, we need to retain perspective. We are constantly saying "guns don't kill people, people kill people" so why isn't the focus on helping people not kill. Mental health services in this country are lacking, IMHO based on experience with a friend, and until that aspect of the problem is addressed the killing will continue. Did the postal service arm and train every postmaster to stop the shootings? Everyone has an opinion, and nobody wants this to ever happen again, but I think we need to stop assuming that guns are at the root of our culture and therefore the answer to society's problem. The duty of our education system is to teach our children, and they are busting their butts trying to do that. We have law enforcement that enforces laws and "serves and protects", isn't it their responsibility to protect our children? If the state or federal government authorizes an armed officer for each school with the special training that type of position would require then I'm all for it. But principals, not a good idea, they have enough to deal with now.

[Col. Nathan C. Riddles, SASS # 7462]

Gentlemen, several years ago a middle eastern terrorist entered an Israeli school and shot several children and teachers. He was captured, tried and convicted and hanged. Since then every school staff member in Israel has been armed and trained to respond quickly with deadly force to any attack on schools. Teachers as well as everyone else in the country must serve two years in the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) upon graduating from High School & reaching their 18th birthday.

 

Take a tour of Israel. You will see many young men and women armed with sidearms and submachine guns patrolling the streets and popular gathering spots such as The Wailing Wall, the Temple Mount, etc, etc. Some of those young men & women are future Israeli school teachers and administrators. You never hear of school, mall or theater shootings in Israel.

 

Many of todays' women in the US will claim to fear or hate guns but will fight like a wildcat to protect their offspring. If they have access to a firearm they will use it to protect their young, whereas they may not consider one to protect themselves from danger. But I rather doubt that as self preservation is the strongest instinct of mankind. I dare say that teachers would not hesitate to shoot to protect their charges. An example is the 27 year old teacher Victoria Soto who shielded her young students with her body, willingly giving up her life to protect them.

[EE Taft]

Alright.....

 

I can see many sides of this.....except of course the gun control side!....I don't want to do something to make kids uncomfortable in school but would like to see them protected....Our Boys' school has a Resourse Officer that was sort of part time.....he has been bumped up to a full time post....That's good! I'd heard he was there sometimes but never met him. I will try to make it a point to meet with him if the chance arises.

 

Our pricipal has sent home a letter to outline the safety regulations for the school and said that the school board also wants to make sure that any changes made are comfortable for the kids....in the wake of this deal, I'm glad to hear this.

 

Two questions come to mind....

 

1. Where was (or was there made availible)the SRO for Sandy Hook Elementary School? Was there any such person on staff?

 

2.What suggestions could I make as a civilian and concerned parent to the principal and school board to adopt a policy to arm teachers and staff that would be willing to do so?.....Would I, as a concerned parent, have to go higher than the school board?

 

I'm sure that letters to the state congress critters would be of help, but I wonder what and how I might bring this to light on a more local scale.

 

I feel right now is not a time to say too much about this, but there is one teacher (married to a local LEO)who does carry. I'm unsure of her authorization as to whether she carries in the building.

 

 

We all know what we think should be done.....now we need to start asking the questions that might make it happen!

 

 

I will be the first to say that (for me) this has been a roller coaster of emotions and worry since the day it happened. The likelihood of it happening again might (or might not) be remote......I would like to see a better outcome if it does happen again.

 

So.....What say y'all......any suggestions as to the best way to open conversations with school officials?

 

~EE Taft~