Are 2 DNF's a MDQ?

[Painted Filly]

Are 2 DNF'S a MDQ? Or does it just take them out of the running for an award? I have scoured the handbooks and can t find it.

 

Painted Filly

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

2 DNF is not a MDQ.

 

2 Stage DQ however is a MQD.

 

At least that's how I remember it. Been a while since I read the rules.

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

2 DNF is not a MDQ.

 

2 Stage DQ however is a MQD.

 

At least that's how I remember it. Been a while since I read the rules.

 

It is recommended SASS matches be scored by an overall ranking system. This scoring system equalizes the difference in stages and rewards the most consistent shooter. Using this system, the recommended stage disqualification score is 999.00 seconds and the recommended match disqualification score is 999.99 seconds on all stages. The recommended score for not finishing a stage is a Stage Disqualification. Any competitor that fails to complete two or more stages in a match, for any reason, is not eligible for any main match awards.

 

KK

 

P.S. Even though it doesn't say it, it is understood that if you get two SDQ's in a match it is a MDQ, so in theory if you have two DNF's which according to the statement above a DNF is a SDQ and 2 SDQ's equal a MDQ, so did I thoughly confuse everybody.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Yup, the new rules treat DNF as a Stage DQ.

 

I don't like that as it may encourage folks to shoot a stage when they are too hurried, not up to it, etc and increase the possibility of an unsafe situation. But some folks got very upset when they were beat by someone with a DNF or two... So we decided to give up a little safety in favor of competition.

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

When this was voted on by the TG's to make a shooter with a certain number of DNF's ineligible to win a main match award there was some confusion in the room about what they had actually voted on. While the SCORE recorded for a DNF is supposed to be 999.99 (if a rank point match) the shooter can actually have a number of DNF's and continue to shoot. They aren't MDQ'd (required to quit shooting) in the classic sense. They are just ineligible to win a main match award.

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

When this was voted on by the TG's to make a shooter with a certain number of DNF's ineligible to win a main match award there was some confusion in the room about what they had actually voted on. While the SCORE recorded for a DNF is supposed to be 999.99 (if a rank point match) the shooter can actually have a number of DNF's and continue to shoot. They aren't MDQ'd (required to quit shooting) in the classic sense. They are just ineligible to win a main match award.

 

What your saying makes sense, but if you read the way it is in the handbook it's not that clear, maybe they should add to the handbook to make it say that DNF's maybe scored as a SDQ but reguardless of the number of DNF's they do not count as a MDQ.

 

KK

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

When this was voted on by the TG's to make a shooter with a certain number of DNF's ineligible to win a main match award there was some confusion in the room about what they had actually voted on.

While the SCORE recorded for a DNF is supposed to be 999.99 (if a rank point match) the shooter can actually have a number of DNF's and continue to shoot. They aren't MDQ'd (required to quit shooting) in the classic sense. They are just ineligible to win a main match award.

 

What your saying makes sense, but if you read the way it is in the handbook it's not that clear, maybe they should add to the handbook to make it say that DNF's maybe scored as a SDQ but reguardless of the number of DNF's they do not count as a MDQ.

 

KK

 

HJ's explanation is correct regarding the ONLY agenda item that was passed at the last TG Summit.

 

The RO1 (p.23) specifies that a DNF is scored the same as a SDQ as far as the time entered.

The omission of "DNF"s in the RO1 "Penalty Overview" (where multiple SDQ/SOG/FTE's ARE addressed as MDQ's) is also an indicator that they are NOT treated the same way.

Edited December 8, 2012 by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

HJ's explanation is correct regarding the ONLY agenda item that was passed at the last TG Summit.

 

The RO1 (p.23) specifies that a DNF is scored the same as a SDQ as far as the time entered.

The omission of "DNF"s in the RO1 "Penalty Overview" (where multiple SDQ/SOG/FTE's ARE addressed as MDQ's) is also an indicator that they are NOT treated the same way.

 

PWB,

I know what your saying is correct but, just because it's omitted doesn't mean everybody will understand what is meant, all I'm saying is add an extra blurb that specifically says more than one DNF is not treated like an MDQ. I also posted that blurb from Pg 23 above in this thread, but it is not as clear as your response.

 

KK

Edited December 8, 2012 by Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

double tap

Edited December 8, 2012 by Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

PWB,

I know what your saying is correct but, just because it's omitted doesn't mean everybody will understand what is meant, all I'm saying is add an extra blurb that specifically says more than one DNF is not treated like an MDQ. I also posted that blurb from Pg 23 above in this thread, but it is not as clear as your response.

 

KK

 

I'll see if that can be made more clear next time the RO1 is up for an edit.

[el Gato Gordo - SASS #15162]

It is recommended SASS matches be scored by an overall ranking system. This scoring system equalizes the difference in stages and rewards the most consistent shooter. Using this system, the recommended stage disqualification score is 999.00 seconds and the recommended match disqualification score is 999.99 seconds on all stages. The recommended score for not finishing a stage is a Stage Disqualification. Any competitor that fails to complete two or more stages in a match, for any reason, is not eligible for any main match awards.

 

KK

 

P.S. Even though it doesn't say it, it is understood that if you get two SDQ's in a match it is a MDQ, so in theory if you have two DNF's which according to the statement above a DNF is a SDQ and 2 SDQ's equal a MDQ, so did I thoughly confuse everybody.

 

 

The 999.99 is only on Rank scored matches. For a Totral time match, it is the number of shots on that satge times 5 seconds, plus 30.

 

Buena suerte,

eGG

[Nellie Blue #54399]

I'll see if that can be made more clear next time the RO1 is up for an edit.

 

Thanks, PWB!!!

[Shaky Molasses, SASS 20549]

DNF is SCORED AS a SDQ. That does not mean that a DNF IS a SDQ. In order for two DNFs to qualify as a Match DQ, the DNF would have to BE a SDQ; but is is NOT a SDQ, it is simply scored as one.

 

Just my 2 bits (inflation, you know!).

[Piedra Kidd, Sass # 35070]

The scoring in a total time match, total of all misses plus 30 is "recommended". That is why some clubs use the 999.00 scores in a total time match for SDQ/DNF or they don't understand.

 

The 150.00(10-10-4)can be tough, but you cannot overcome a 999 score in a total time match, scoring with the Rank. It can and will cause hard feelings especially if it is a State match. But technically, you may use any time for MDQ,SDQ and DNF in total time for State and local matches. And for Regional and above any time for SDQ, MDQ or DNF as long as it's rank. Pg24, RO1, Scoring.

 

Since we are a total time match, We used the 150 no matter how many targets are up. 10, 10, 6, or 9, 10, 4, for a SDQ and 151.00 for a DNF. We have used this time, before it was in the rule books and we just stuck with it. But since that rule changed, we now score both the same.

 

We tried it the other way once, as in number of misses+30, but then I would have to get out the book and see what and how many. I don't have time for that...I'm busy! :wacko:/>/>/> It was just easier to set the number and go with it. It is published in our shooters book.

 

Club score keepers just have to be educated on which score you use for rank and total time.

Rank: MDQ=999.99 SDQ=999.00 DNF=999.00 Total Time: Number of misses + 30 sec. All recommended. And please don't mix and match!

 

Our posse leaders should also be aware of what the club score keeper wants, cuz when I'm in the scoring hut, I want to see , DNF, SDQ, or MDQ on the score sheet not 150. That way, I know which one is which. If all I see is a 150.00 score, was it a SDQ or a DNF? Since the rule change, that would be important information as others have pointed out, you can keep shooting with a DNF. Chasing down posse leaders for information can be tough, and a gazillion other things have happened in between time. Memories can be short.

 

 

You can get 6 or 4 DNF and not be match DQ. As in... not shoot one day and shoot the next of a two day match. So 2 DNF and 1 SDQ is not grounds for a match DQ.

 

For a MATCH DQ, or a "no show" we still use the 999.99 as it doesn't matter.

 

We have had shooters that actually shot several stages in more than the 150.00 seconds. So, albeit rare, I have to be mindful of those shooters when award time comes around. They could possibly be under the DNF folks.

 

I hate more rules, but this one wouldn't be so bad......

 

Maybe the RC could make the times for Rank and Total Time MDQ,SDQ,DNF a rule, although I really hate the misses + 30. I like the standard 150 for SDQ and DNF. Maybe 200 for a MDQ in total time. BTJM (Even some on this thread got the recommended SDQ Rank time wrong (Kiowa Kid got it right, but it's not surprising that some folks get confused when reading this stuff.)

 

As a score keeper and I'm sure others feel the same...it is VERY important that we get the scores right and fair no matter what system we use!

 

(Sorry for taking this off track)

 

 

 

Stumble Leena + :wub:/>/>/>

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Follow up to a related inquiry on the TG Wire:

 

Shooters with 2 or more DNF's are ineligible for ANY "Main Match" awards...

so they should (theoretically) not "place" anywhere on the overall, stage or category lists.

 

If listed among the shooters who 'participated' to some degree, they SHOULD be at the bottom of the list with the MDQ's...IMO.

Their scores also should NOT be considered in ranking any of the other shooters on the stages that they DID finish.

 

 

I would ask CD Tom how those scores are "flagged" and/or treated in the SASS Scoring Program.

 

REPLY FROM CD TOM:

 

You are correct, from the information I received from SASS a shooter with 2 or more DNF is not eligible to place. The scoring program will not show those shooters in the match final report or the Category final report. They will show up however in the Match final with extras. There is a switch in the setup of the scoring program that will allow the club to print those shooters on the two reports if they wish.

 

CD

[Shaky Molasses, SASS 20549]

 

We have had shooters that actually shot several stages in more than the 150.00 seconds. So, albeit rare, I have to be mindful of those shooters when award time comes around. They could possibly be under the DNF folks.

 

 

Great, thanks a lot, just "out me" in front of the whole SASS Wire! You mean some people finish a stage in LESS than 5 minutes? Is that with or without the misses?

[Sawed-Off]

Stupid question - what is the definition of a DNF with regard to scoring? I'm just curious because I'd hate to have a gun jam on the second to last shot and be given a 999.00.

[Piedra Kidd, Sass # 35070]

Great, thanks a lot, just "out me" in front of the whole SASS Wire! You mean some people finish a stage in LESS than 5 minutes? Is that with or without the misses?

 

 

Shaky Molasses,

 

I'm so sorry! :wub:/>/>/> It wasn't intentional. :)/>/> I was talking about that other Shaky guy! :ph34r:/>

 

Stumble Leena :wub:/>/>/>

[Blastmaster]

Stupid question - what is the definition of a DNF with regard to scoring? I'm just curious because I'd hate to have a gun jam on the second to last shot and be given a 999.00.

 

DNF = Did NOT Fire

 

Example. Shooter enters a match and shoots all but two stages. He had to leave early for family matters or to catch a plane or any other reason. Simply, he was not present for two stages (or more). There have been cases, where this shooters score (Total Time or Rank Point scoring) ended up better than someone that shot all stages and was there for the entire time.

 

 

I believe that is the meat of this topic.

 

 

Blastmaster

Edited December 12, 2012 by Blastmaster

[Flying W Ramrod]

DNF = Did NOT Fire

 

Example. Shooter enters a match and shoots all but two stages. He had to leave early for family matters or to catch a plane or any other reason. Simply, he was not present for two stages (or more). There have been cases, where this shooters score (Total Time or Rank Point scoring) ended up better than someone that shot all stages and was there for the entire time.

 

 

I believe that is the meat of this topic.

 

 

Blastmaster

DNF = Did Not FINISH not Did Not Fire.

To me this means a shooter did not get a recordable score.

Basically if you don't go to the line to shoot, you DNF'd the stage.

This rule came about because some shooters thought the faster/better shooters could only shoot the amount of stages needed to take a trophy then not shoot the rest thus not risking misses, proceedurals, SDQ's, MDQ's.

While I don't think this ever happened, though it may have, there are examples of folks only shooting one day of a two day match, not by design but by happenstance, and winning their category because they were much faster/better.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Flying W Ramrod

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

...

 

Since we are a total time match, We used the 150 no matter how many targets are up. 10, 10, 6, or 9, 10, 4, for a SDQ and 151.00 for a DNF. We have used this time, before it was in the rule books and we just stuck with it. But since that rule changed, we now score both the same.

 

We tried it the other way once, as in number of misses+30, but then I would have to get out the book and see what and how many. I don't have time for that...I'm busy! It was just easier to set the number and go with it. It is published in our shooters book.

 

Club score keepers just have to be educated on which score you use for rank and total time.

Rank: MDQ=999.99 SDQ=999.00 DNF=999.00 Total Time: Number of misses + 30 sec. All recommended. And please don't mix and match!

 

...

 

...

Maybe the RC could make the times for Rank and Total Time MDQ,SDQ,DNF a rule, although I really hate the misses + 30. I like the standard 150 for SDQ and DNF. Maybe 200 for a MDQ in total time. BTJM (Even some on this thread got the recommended SDQ Rank time wrong (Kiowa Kid got it right, but it's not surprising that some folks get confused when reading this stuff.)

 

As a score keeper and I'm sure others feel the same...it is VERY important that we get the scores right and fair no matter what system we use!

...

 

REPLY from CD Tom:

 

If the match is marked to score by total time and you are using the number of shots + 30 seconds then the SASS scoring program will compute the DNF that way. If using rank points the the scoring program uses the 999.90 as the DNF time. If using the new Points by category the a DNF get 0 points.

 

 

The scoring program is very flexible if you set the system up to score by number of shots + seconds the program will have you enter the number of shots for each stage plus you have the option as to the number of seconds you wish to add. When scoring there is a check box for DNF, SDQ or MDQ when you check one of those boxes the system will compute the score according to how you have setup the match

[Bone Arranger, SASS# 25544]

Some one that finishes a match should never be allowed to finish behind some who didn't. It's just not fair to the person who does take time away from his/her family, job or whatever. But, that may not be pertinent to this discussion. And that is not meant to be a put down to the person who didn't finish either, btw. JMHO.

BA

[Sawed-Off]

DNF = Did Not FINISH not Did Not Fire.

To me this means a shooter did not get a recordable score.

Basically if you don't go to the line to shoot, you DNF'd the stage.

 

Thanks. I couldn't see a definition anywhere in the SHB, RO-I or RO-II books. Could be a good addition to a future version as there's already a suggestion for a modification.

 

Sounds like a better term might be Did Not Start or Did Not Compete.