Flintlock...?

[Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172]

See, I tolt you the smart fellers would kick in.

 

To my way of thinking a nice little .40 or .45, I think a .40 caliber with a good barrel and premier lock would be the way to go for paper punching. Most of the shooting outside of hunting will be paper punching or similar targets.

 

I don't know if they have silhouette target shooting for BP Muzzleloaders. That might be a fun venue.

But for that I think I would want something a little larger so there would be a knock down punch. A .40 might be too light.

 

Now I am thinking that if it were me, first of all, I would decide what I wanted to do with the rifle. Is it going to be a piece or art on the wall, at target rifle, a hunting rifle, or what?

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

Not sure that a swamped barrel is all that much advantage in a .50 caliber barrel.

Maybe that is why they are scarce.

Uh.... here's where my ignorance shows... So is there an actual physical reason for a swamped barrel? I always thought it just looked cool!

 

Thinkin' of Snuffy Smith and his "Shootin' Iron..."

[Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172]

As I understand it, since I have never owned one, I have to rely on hear say, it focuses the eye to the front sight. Looking down the flat on the top of the barrel it causes the eye to see the front sight and makes it clearer. If you shoot as crummy as I do, it ain't much help nohow. It could have other uses, but I do not know what they might be.

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

As I understand it, since I have never owned one, I have to rely on hear say, it focuses the eye to the front sight. Looking down the flat on the top of the barrel it causes the eye to see the front sight and makes it clearer. If you shoot as crummy as I do, it ain't much help nohow. It could have other uses, but I do not know what they might be.

 

It serves to balance out what would otherwise be a muzzle heavy rifle. Also, it allows the builder to put more metal in the breech area where it counts. WARNING! If you ever shoulder a swamped barrel you'll never want to go back.

 

There are three things that bug me on inletting ml rifles: Crescent buttplates, the lower entry thimble, and a swamped barrel. They aren't extremely difficult but ya gotta keep your head outa your butt, think things through twice, and slow down. Matter of fact that applies every facet of building.

[Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172]

I see that the NRA has a sanctioned silhouette shooting venue.

They use large animal however, and I suspect that the larger bore

rifles are used in a Hawkins platform.

 

 

I also see that rendezvous are the most common form of competitive shooting events.

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

It serves to balance out what would otherwise be a muzzle heavy rifle. Also, it allows the builder to put more metal in the breech area where it counts. WARNING! If you ever shoulder a swamped barrel you'll never want to go back.

 

There are three things that bug me on inletting ml rifles: Crescent buttplates, the lower entry thimble, and a swamped barrel. They aren't extremely difficult but ya gotta keep your head outa your butt, think things through twice, and slow down. Matter of fact that applies every facet of building.

Matter of fact that applies to every facet of life~!

[Marcus (Doc) Arroyo #40370]

Well Charlie... So far I've changed my thinking to the .50 cal... Otherwise, still pondering - there's SO much to consider... and .50 cal swamped barrels seem a mite scarce. This is worse that buying a new truck!

 

Question... I'm assuming the barrel should be browned. Now, I've done this before with muzzleloading pistols, but how does one heat a rifle barrel...? It ain't gonna fit in my oven~!

 

 

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/index.aspx has a number of Colerain barrels in stock I have been real happy with mine.

 

I have used Laural Mountain Browning Reagent for my last 6 or so browned guns. No need to heat anything. My last two builds had a "French Grey" finish that is a combo application of browning solution and Naval Jelly.

 

I just wish I had space for a fancy bluing tank

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/index.aspx has a number of Colerain barrels in stock I have been real happy with mine.

 

I have used Laural Mountain Browning Reagent for my last 6 or so browned guns. No need to heat anything. My last two builds had a "French Grey" finish that is a combo application of browning solution and Naval Jelly.

 

I just wish I had space for a fancy bluing tank

 

+ 1! A proper cold brown is far more durable and pleasing to the eye too.

[Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172]

I am partial to roman nose stock also. I think brass is a better choice than German silver because of reflection.

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/index.aspx has a number of Colerain barrels in stock I have been real happy with mine.

 

I have used Laural Mountain Browning Reagent for my last 6 or so browned guns. No need to heat anything. My last two builds had a "French Grey" finish that is a combo application of browning solution and Naval Jelly.

 

I just wish I had space for a fancy bluing tank

Oh, Cool!

 

Thanks again, Doc!

 

Sooo much to think about.... but it's gonna be fun!

 

So what do you "experienced" builders think about wood....? And locks - plain or "engraved?"

 

Curious... just how inletted ARE the kit stocks....?

[Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172]

IIRC the stock are generally 90% inletted. How about a check piece on the stock? With carvings? I can't whittle matches so I would not try such a thing but others with talent might.

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

Hardpan, a fairly simple rifle with the correct lines and architecture would be my goal on a first rifle anyway. As said earlier, you spend just as much blood, sweat, and tears working up a figured piece of wood as you do straight grained. That said, a full curl stick of maple will cost you dearly but its worth every penny.

 

 

 

Nothing looks worse on a longrifle than a huge unadorned patchbox unless its a huge patchbox with gaudy ill-done engraving. It doesn't take much to please the eye and a trip to some museums or borrowing of books is a good way to study patterns. Remember that mostly the rich guys rifles survived and the plain working rifles mostly got used up.

 

My ownself...I prefer Southern Mtn Rifles but thats my heritage so to speak. Lately I've taken a shine to the Vogler family of North Carolina. They were first-rate gun and metalsmiths. Their rifles often mixed brass, iron, and coinsilver into very pleasing combinations. Check out Bivins book on "The Rifles of North Carolina". The book is sometimes hard to find but well worth it. My own Peter Vogler will have brass butt, triggerguard, iron ramrod thimbles, and silver keys/mounts. It will if i can ever get motivated to finish it that is. <_</>

 

Numerous others like Kindigs book are certainly required reading and studying if you're serious about historical accuracy. I'm not much of an artist but have spent hours studying and trying to copy patterns off original rifles. While you're at it pick up a copy of Foxfire Vol. 5 and read where Wallace Gusler builds a rifle absolutely from scratch!!!

 

 

 

Most are 95 to 98 percent inlet but that doesn't mean everything drops right in either. Unless you have an agreement with them you are usually limited to their lock selection. In this day and time of CNC substitution shouldn't be a problem. Figured wood is a bit trickier to work with than straight grained so a little practice wood and very sharp chisels is recommended.

 

Most of my building occurred in the 80's when L&R locks were very good. They tell me that these aren't as good a quality as then. Since the lock is the heart and soul of the rifle, get a good one!!! Jim Chambers work is as about as good as it gets and there are more custom makers out there.

 

You know, you can make it through one of these things yet pull a monumental boner right at the end. I didn't have a mentor nor was Peter Alexanders excellent book available. After the last coat of finish had dried on my first rifle I eagerly snatched up the ramrod thimbles, seated them, and begin tapping the holding pins through. Imagine my distress when I looked on the other side and saw cracked portruding wood!!!!! :o/> What happened was that finish had filled the holes and the pin shoved all that through the hole like a giant oversized punch. I repaired the cracks with accruglass but dang it didn't occur to me that you should clean those holes a bit and then warm up the pin before tapping it in. You won't see that in a book very often its one of those tasks I warned about thinking things through. :)/>

 

Last bit of advice. Visit or join a muzzleloading club or go to a rendezvous. Study every rifle you can. Take pictures if they'll let you and ask questions...most people will gleefully help. Sometimes you have to take the advice with a grain of salt but that comes with experience. Also, and this is important...nearly every aspect of building a rifle can be googled now and a lot of it is on YouTube!

[Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172]

Dang it Sam, you should go on tour giving lectures. Very interesting reading.

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

Dang it Sam, you should go on tour giving lectures. Very interesting reading.

 

Gee Badger, you could go along and pass the collection plate! We'ed be.............poor as church mice! :lol:/>/>/>/>/>

 

For about 25 years all my hobby time and a lot of the other was spent on ML rifles and was in a Georgia club that meant a great deal to me. After moving here, I left the club and my interest bottomed out in building anything. Hardpans post has kinda revived a hidden spark and heck I might even drag my Vogler out and finally finish it ;)/>/>/>/>/>

 

If you guys are really interested in the rifles and their history there is no better venue than Muzzleloader Magazine and buy as many back issues as you can get.

 

P.S. Hardpan. Unless things have changed even on a 95% inletted stock you still have to fine fit the barrel, lock, and plus the buttplate probably will be a scratch inlet. Also, the ramrod thimbles and nosecap will need to be inletted. Any extras like patchboxes, inlays, etc will require inletting as well. Holes will be needed to attach triggerguard, thimbles, and the tang drilled through to the triggerplate if required. If they breech the barrel for you by all means let them do it....its another tedious task if you don't have a lathe. The touchhole likely won't be drilled either nor will the liner be installed. You'll have to cut the sight dovetails as well and install barrel lugs or staples for the stock pins. A lot of the metal, maybe even the barrel will, need to be draw filed and/or polished.

 

What I'm saying is that while these from Track or other outfits may sound like kits there is a helluva lot of work involved. Thats why I'm emphasizing Alexanders book, trips to rendezvous, and a lot of study cause I want it to be as enjoyable and educational for you as it has been for me. (Them caplocks never will catch on!)

[Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172]

An aside note here, and I don't want to hijack Hardpan's thread, but my only experience with a Kentucky type rifle was one that was sold by Navy Arms back in the 1970s. It was sold as an assembled gun and also in a kit as I recall. For what it was, it worked as a shooting rifle. I do not know if it was my inherent ineptness at shooting, poor patch ball selection, or the barrel was designed for shooting around corners, but I could never get it to break the X.

 

It was, however, sold in both flintlock and caplock. I had both locks, in fact I still have the flinter, so that tells you something about the rifle. In my mind, the caplock was much cleaner and easier to use. More dependable also. Like I said, it was exercising my God give talent of ineptness at the time. I was also up to my neck into the CW skirmishing with my .58 caliber 2 band Enfield.

 

In saying all this, I would add that in retrospect, the overall lines of the rifle were great, the fit and feel was good for me, but the components were sub standard overall. A good barrel/trigger and lock are the heart and soul of a good rifle. The flint version is very attractive, and a lot of fun, but if I was depending on meat on the table or keeping the Iroquois out of the barn, I would prefer the caplock.

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

Consider acid etching the patch box and other metal parts.

 

You'll need a small vial of 40% nitric acid (a good pharmacy can get it for you), a block of beeswax, a clean heat source, a pin vice, a couple of not-too-sharp needles,and some base liquid to kill the acid. You'll also need safety goggles, rubber gloves, a place out doors to work where you can spill the acid and not hurt anything, and a pattern drawn on tracing paper or translucent vellum. You can find instructions on the net.

 

Sounds complicated but it's really not. It's easier than cutting metal with gravers unless you have a lot of time and annealed brass pieces to practice on.

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

Tom, I'm seriously going to be looking into that acid engraving - I've seen some nice work done with that.

 

Used to go to rondy-voos plenty, back in the 70's and early 80's, and still have my old TC Hawken that I bought back in '72. Most of the memories are a mite musty by now though (wonder why? :rolleyes:/> ). Some of those boys were plumb CRAZY!! :lol:/>

 

And yeah - I think Sam and Badger should mount a road show~!! ^_^/>

 

And since I'm so much into askin' for advice... how about chisels? I'm afraid my budget won't handle a set of Pfeils... :(/>

 

Okay - not a flinter, but just for smiles here's the left-side lock on my old 1880's German built Cape Gun: Lock

 

Purty, ain't it? :blush:/>

[Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172]

Nice Iron!

 

Are you a lefty?

 

It is ok if you are. We will still let you sit at the supper table with us righties.

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

Nice Iron!

 

Are you a lefty?

 

It is ok if you are. We will still let you sit at the supper table with us righties. :lol:/>

Naw... She's a Cape Gun!

[Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172]

As usual, I overlooked that detail.

 

But we will still let you sit at the supper table.

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

Yum!

 

Pass the mashed 'taters and gravy, please...

[Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172]

Well, what decisions have you made so far regarding caliber, stock type, flinter or cap lock, etc. Inquiring minds want to know, and so do us busybodies.

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

I'm thinkin' .50 calibre... preferably a swamped barrel... upgraded wood... gettin' there, but dang - been a busy week and haven't had time to properly look at ALL the options. Like UB noted, I'm a simple fella, and sortin' through it all is challenging...!

 

I've already told Sassparilla his b'day gift from Dad will be a few weeks late (he doesn't read the Wire often, so it'll be a surprise) - he turns 21 tomorrow!

 

Tonight he's taking his old man to a California Waterfowl Association (sorta like Ducks Unlimited) dinner.

 

Oh! What about twist...?? Hadn't asked that one yet!

[Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172]

The 21st is a special one. So is 75! :wacko:/>/>

 

 

 

As far as the twist goes, I don't know if right hand or left hand twist has anything to do with accuracy. I suspect not. But round ball will require a longer twist than a sabot or mini ball to maintain any kind of accuracy. I have heard 1/66 for the hawkins type rifles, but I do not know about the Kentucky types. Longer barrels would undoubtedly have an effect on it. Contact some of the barrel makes like Green River and Colerain to see what they tell you. I sure would not dependo on BMC's council in the matter.

 

 

ED: http://colerainbarrel.com/rifled_barrels.html

 

They also talk about gain twist. Not sure if that will help or not.

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

The 21st is a special one. So is 75! :wacko:/>/>

 

 

 

As far as the twist goes, I don't know if right hand or left hand twist has anything to do with accuracy. I suspect not. But round ball will require a longer twist than a sabot or mini ball to maintain any kind of accuracy. I have heard 1/66 for the hawkins type rifles, but I do not know about the Kentucky types. Longer barrels would undoubtedly have an effect on it. Contact some of the barrel makes like Green River and Colerain to see what they tell you. I sure would not dependo on BMC's council in the matter.

ED: http://colerainbarrel.com/rifled_barrels.html

Depends on whether or not you're British and on which side of the Equator you intend to do your shooting.

[Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172]

You ain't planning on shooting Wallaby Jack are you?

 

He is a pretty good guy, most of the time.

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

Naah.... Wobbly's a good guy~!

[Marcus (Doc) Arroyo #40370]

 

And since I'm so much into askin' for advice... how about chisels? I'm afraid my budget won't handle a set of Pfeils... :(/>/>/>

 

 

 

I get more use out of a couple of Microplanes, an Exacto knife, and a pair of 1/2" paring chisels. I do use a couple of antique moticing chisels, 1/8" and 1/4" and a small veiner.

 

Then there are a couple of shop made tools. One started as a goose necked chisel, that was re-sharpened to a flat "arrowhead" with cutting edges on both sides. It is laid flat on the wood, and slid to the left or right to sneak up on the cut. I also made left and right cutting knives like this one...

My Carver

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

What Doc said. You don't need a set of woodcarving chisels unless you plan on doing relief carving. I use the exacto a lot plus 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2 in flat chisels plus some I've modified or made for particular chores. Inletting/bottoming files are nice but not necessary. Part of the fun is making do with what you have or can make in the shop. The tool is not so important as the knowledge of how to use and sharpen them.

[The Shoer 27979]

Curse you Hardpan, I keep telling myself the whole time I was reading thus thread I don't need another project. So in a couple of months I will be buying a flintlock rifle kit

 

 

:)

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

Welcome, Bruddah! ^_^/>

 

I mean... how could ya get any cooler than a bee-yoo-tee-ful rifle that uses a ROCK to fire~??? :lol:/>

 

Mr Kramer's Rifle

[Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172]

Curse you Hardpan, I keep telling myself the whole time I was reading thus thread I don't need another project. So in a couple of months I will be buying a flintlock rifle kit

 

 

:)/> :)/>

 

OK< Now we have two rifles to follow.

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

I'm hopin' to order 'bout mid-December (when I bust the piggy bank open)... so won't have to rush into it and hope to make some well-studied out decisions; ALL the suggestions and advice here are reeeeally appreciated!

 

And of course... I'll need another next year for myownself!

[The Shoer 27979]

mine won't be till about March

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

mine won't be till about March

We might be buyin' sandpaper 'bout then...