Cemetery Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 What's this whisper in the wind about a black powder category called 'King of the Hillbilly Nation'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 What's this whisper in the wind about a black powder category called 'King of the Hillbilly Nation'? You should ask Buffalo Dick, Stone Creek Drifter, or Split Rail! They are all experienced in the Competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JESAMY KID Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 What's this whisper in the wind about a black powder category called 'King of the Hillbilly Nation'? Hey Cem whatever they call it, it's great. It was great shootin with you on our posse at Purgatory In the Pines in Jackson NJ Jesamy Kid TGJHG Sass#34841 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackalope Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 What's this whisper in the wind about a black powder category called 'King of the Hillbilly Nation'? Howdy Cemetery, Champeen of the Hillbilly Nation = .45 revolvers, full load BP, 250 gr bullet (or more), shot duelist style, minimum 200 gr bullet in rifle with full load BP, at least 60 gr BP and 1 1/8 oz shot in shotgun. King of Kaboom and Sultan of Smoke have similar rules but I think they use use cap & ball revolvers. Split Rail, Stone Creek Drifter or Appalachian Alan probably know the details on those two. You don't find these categories everywhere, I can only wish. Jackalope Jedi Gunfighter Lucky # 7 Champeen of the Hillbilly Nation 2010, 2011... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Cemetery: It all stems from the Kentucky State Championship match at Hooten Old Town Regulators. It's for full-load BP shooters Links: T-Rex Fahert Society Category Requirements They have several categories: Champeenship of the Hillbilly Nation (CHN) Competitors can sign up for the main match in FCD, Duelist, Classic, or other as long as they adhere to FCD equipment and guidelines. All pistols are shot in the SASS Duelist category manner. Double duelist is allowed. Pistols : 250 or heavier gr. boolits and full 45 LC cases of FF 777 (touching the base of the boolit- no cookies, cards, fiber wads, cereal, caulking rod, or any other fillers). 777 Only Rifle : Rifle caliber must be 38 WCF, 44 WCF, 44 Mag or 45 LC and loaded with 777 to touch the boolit base (180 gr minimum). No loads broken down. 777 only Shotgun : Double barrel or '87 shotgun firing a 60 grain powder charge and 1 1/8 oz. shot (both minimums). Any type of BP powder or subs for Shotgun. Sultan of Smoke (SoS) Shooters from the SASS BP Match definition of the categories of FCD, Frontiersman, Duelist, Sr. Duelist, Classic Cowboy and Others are eligible. ie One Handed only. All pistols are shot in the SASS Duelist category manner. Double duelist is allowed, see below for gunfighters. Pistols and Rifle: 40 cal and up - 200 grain and up - 25 grains of powder and up 38-40 - 180 grain - 30 grains of powder and up Cap and Bal. 44 cal and up - round ball - 30 grains of powder and up Powder: Real Black Pyrodex 777 APP or Pinnacle and other Black Powder Substitutes ARE allowed Shotgun: 60 grains of any powder (including APP and Pinnacle) 1 1/8 oz shot same as CHN Double barrel and 87 97 is not allowed King of Kaboom (KoK) Same rules as SoS, however, two handed shooting is allowed. Notes Duelist can enter KoK if desired Gunfighers can more than likely enter KoK. Final says is up to match officials. Another big load category is called Pale Rider: Revolver and Rifle: 40 caliber and above 200 grain projectile 25 grains by volume of bp or SASS-approved bp substitute *note: 38-40 shooters may use a 180 grain projectile BUT must use 30 grains by volume of bp/sub. Shotgun: Double or 87 Only 60 grs by volume of bp/sub 1 1/8 oz or more of shot Cap & Ball shooters: 30 grains by volume of bp/sub The category is shot duelist style. Double duelist is allowed. --Dawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spittoon O Tool SASS #62053 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Cemetery: It all stems from the Kentucky State Championship match at Hooten Old Town Regulators. It's for full-load BP shooters Links: T-Rex Fahert Society Category Requirements They have several categories: Champeenship of the Hillbilly Nation (CHN) Competitors can sign up for the main match in FCD, Duelist, Classic, or other as long as they adhere to FCD equipment and guidelines. All pistols are shot in the SASS Duelist category manner. Double duelist is allowed. Pistols : 250 or heavier gr. boolits and full 45 LC cases of FF 777 (touching the base of the boolit- no cookies, cards, fiber wads, cereal, caulking rod, or any other fillers). 777 Only Rifle : Rifle caliber must be 38 WCF, 44 WCF, 44 Mag or 45 LC and loaded with 777 to touch the boolit base (180 gr minimum). No loads broken down. 777 only Shotgun : Double barrel or '87 shotgun firing a 60 grain powder charge and 1 1/8 oz. shot (both minimums). Any type of BP powder or subs for Shotgun. Sultan of Smoke (SoS) Shooters from the SASS BP Match definition of the categories of FCD, Frontiersman, Duelist, Sr. Duelist, Classic Cowboy and Others are eligible. ie One Handed only. All pistols are shot in the SASS Duelist category manner. Double duelist is allowed, see below for gunfighters. Pistols and Rifle: 40 cal and up - 200 grain and up - 25 grains of powder and up 38-40 - 180 grain - 30 grains of powder and up Cap and Bal. 44 cal and up - round ball - 30 grains of powder and up Powder: Real Black Pyrodex 777 APP or Pinnacle and other Black Powder Substitutes ARE allowed Shotgun: 60 grains of any powder (including APP and Pinnacle) 1 1/8 oz shot same as CHN Double barrel and 87 97 is not allowed King of Kaboom (KoK) Same rules as SoS, however, two handed shooting is allowed. Notes Duelist can enter KoK if desired Gunfighers can more than likely enter KoK. Final says is up to match officials. Another big load category is called Pale Rider: Revolver and Rifle: 40 caliber and above 200 grain projectile 25 grains by volume of bp or SASS-approved bp substitute *note: 38-40 shooters may use a 180 grain projectile BUT must use 30 grains by volume of bp/sub. Shotgun: Double or 87 Only 60 grs by volume of bp/sub 1 1/8 oz or more of shot Cap & Ball shooters: 30 grains by volume of bp/sub The category is shot duelist style. Double duelist is allowed. --Dawg Hey Dawg, I've always shot Pale Rider Gunfighter style. Spittoon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Hey Spittoon: These are just the "rules" I got from the places that started the categories. Many folks have "pale rider" & "pale rider gunfighter" categories. We did at High Noon at Tusco. Ruger Ray won Pale Rider. Stone Creek Drifter won Pale Rider Gunfighter --Dawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Prairie Dawg pretty much summed it up although bp has been allowed in Champeen of the Hillbilly Nation as an alternative to 777 for years now. Lesser subs, like APP and others are not allowed in CHN-bp or 777 only. I think the credit for starting this goes to Cherokee Big Dog and Appalachian Alan. We would run this as a "match within a match" rather than ask the match organizers to recognize still more categories. So, I might sign up for FCD at the match but I would also agree to shoot the heavier loads required to qualify for CHN, SOS etc. Traditionally, the winner would get a ball cap and for years Cherokee Big Dog supplied those. We had also decided to do this at the annual bp match at (now defunct) Possum Trot. We would just do our own presentation at the awards ceremony and only recognize the overall champion in each of these unofficial sub-categories. Possum Trot is no more, but Copperhead Joe and many of the people responsible for the Possum Trot match have created an annual bp match at Joe's Ponderosa Pines range. That was just held last weekend and, being brand new, was lightly attended. I expect that match to grow and would love to see the Champeen of the Hillbilly Nation championship there next year. I'm certainly willing to help make that happen. Many competitors will shoot these loads year round but it seemed better to have just one annual match for the offical championship. I think I went through a whole case of bp in about three months in 2006 or 2007. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Hey Dawg, I've always shot Pale Rider Gunfighter style. Spittoon "Pale Rider" pretty much started in Ohio and basically used the same rules as the "Sultan of Smoke." That meant duelist style shooting and gunfighter was not allowed. I think the name was changed to Pale Rider so as not to dilute the matches run by the people who started this whole CHN, SOS, KOK thing. As others have said, a number of matches in the Midwest are also having a Pale Rider Gunfighter category if the interest is there, but Pale Rider was originally only a duelist category in the locales where it started. The Indiana rules were, I think, Manatee's brainchild and are different from how we did it in Ohio, but they came along much later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackalope Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Howdy Buffy, You're correct that a full case of real BP is allowed in CHN. Since the Possum Trot gang pretty much picked up and moved to Ponderosa Pines, I had thought CHN, KoK, and SoS would be part of Copperhead Joe's Smokeout in the Hills, too. The only ammo I even brought along was suitable for CHN. It would be great if these official championships were contested at Smokeout in the Hills every year! Regards, Jackalope Jedi Gunfighter Lucky #7 Champeen of the Hillbilly Nation 2010, 2011... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Howdy Buffy, You're correct that a full case of real BP is allowed in CHN. Since the Possum Trot gang pretty much picked up and moved to Ponderosa Pines, I had thought CHN, KoK, and SoS would be part of Copperhead Joe's Smokeout in the Hills, too. The only ammo I even brought along was suitable for CHN. It would be great if these official championships were contested at Smokeout in the Hills every year! Regards, Jackalope Jedi Gunfighter Lucky #7 Champeen of the Hillbilly Nation 2010, 2011... I agree. Since this was always something done by the participants and not by the match organizers, we'll just make it happen. I'll see that we have the caps for Champeen of the Hillbilly Nation, Sultan of Smoke and King of Kaboom at next years match and we have a year to get the word out. I think Joe, Iron Maiden, Whiskey Creek, Ringer et al. captured the spirit of Possum Trot and this will only make it better. Sound good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manatee Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Some of the most fun I've ever had in SASS is shooting full bp or 777 loads out of big caliber guns. We've had all sorts of contests to go along with it.: One year, we had a rodeo clown face painting contest. Max Montana won that won...scary damn clown. Had to use brain bleach for 6 months to get that face out of my dreams! Make up your own rules if you like, but the ground has been pretty well plowed by those of us who shot big bore bp. My favorite match was a few years ago when Tex showed up and the whole GOA posse shot Pale Rider Gunfighter. That was a match! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dang It Dan 13202 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 I have to admit, it sounds tempting. I have the shotgun and rifle, but don't have the large caliber pistols (yet). Florida is overdue for a catagory like this. It would be awsome. Dang It Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cemetery Posted October 24, 2012 Author Share Posted October 24, 2012 These are the type of categories that can really whet the whistle..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Chris Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 I wish I had a set of guns in 45 so I could join in. Sounds like fun. I guess I'll have to settle for stuffing as much BP into 357 cases as I can until I can afford some more guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackalope Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 I agree. Since this was always something done by the participants and not by the match organizers, we'll just make it happen. I'll see that we have the caps for Champeen of the Hillbilly Nation, Sultan of Smoke and King of Kaboom at next years match and we have a year to get the word out. I think Joe, Iron Maiden, Whiskey Creek, Ringer et al. captured the spirit of Possum Trot and this will only make it better. Sound good? You bet! Check for a PM. Jackalope Jedi Gunfighter Lucky #7 Champeen of the Hillbilly Nation 2010, 2011... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I always use Pale Rider loads, when the category is offered I shoot it. I guess I'll have to git some 45's to shoot Hillbilly Nation, I only have .44-40's! Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Where does this load data fit into the various categories? Revolver & Rifle Loads: 45 Colt - 454190 bullet (265gr) - 35gr FFg powder 12ga Shotgun: Square Load: 1 1/8 shot - 3 drams of Fg (82grs by weight) Shot as Duelist Reason for asking ... 60gr minimum with 1 1/8 shot is on the wimpish side - a tad over 2 drams normally loaded with 1 oz of shot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cemetery Posted October 25, 2012 Author Share Posted October 25, 2012 John Boy, that sounds like a 'Cemetery' catagory to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I always use Pale Rider loads, when the category is offered I shoot it. I guess I'll have to git some 45's to shoot Hillbilly Nation, I only have .44-40's! Rye Or, you could shoot Sultan of Smoke with your 44-40's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Where does this load data fit into the various categories? Revolver & Rifle Loads: 45 Colt - 454190 bullet (265gr) - 35gr FFg powder 12ga Shotgun: Square Load: 1 1/8 shot - 3 drams of Fg (82grs by weight) Shot as Duelist Reason for asking ... 60gr minimum with 1 1/8 shot is on the wimpish side - a tad over 2 drams normally loaded with 1 oz of shot? Definitely CHN legal. I agree that the minimum shotgun load is not as impressive as the pistol/rifle requirements. The rules were originally written a year or so before I got involved with the CHN matches so I don't really know why the shotgun wasn't taken to the same max level. I know when I first started loading bp shotshells I was kind of on my own and started with the same 3 dram-1 1/8oz load, only I was using 3f Goex. Seems I had remembered seeing "3 dram equivalent" on a box of smokeless hunting shotshells and went from there. I do know that lots of people will experience holes blown in the center of the pattern with the really heavy bp loads. I suspect that 60-65 is also about as high as we can go with modern plastic wads, but I haven't really experimented. Are you in for next year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cemetery Posted October 25, 2012 Author Share Posted October 25, 2012 Sounds like we need to bring these BP catagories to NJ next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Fink, SASS #29047 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Howdy All: Buffy, I'll come on down and shoot Sultan of Smoke(cap guns you know) . Missed the last couple of years. Time to change that. Regards, Mike (the) Fink Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seamus McGillicuddy Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I don’t understand why .44 WCF, the best BP caliber out there, would not be allowed & certainly don’t see why 777 would ever be preferred over real BP. How about a subcategory to one of these requiring the use of Colt Dragoons or Walkers? Now you are matching real manly horse pistols with real manly loads! Seamus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Sounds like we need to bring these BP catagories to NJ next year. In the meantime, see you next year at Ponderosa Pines in October? It's a lot closer than Comin' at Cha and you don't have to drive through Tennessee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I don’t understand why .44 WCF, the best BP caliber out there, would not be allowed & certainly don’t see why 777 would ever be preferred over real BP. How about a subcategory to one of these requiring the use of Colt Dragoons or Walkers? Now you are matching real manly horse pistols with real manly loads! Seamus .44 WCF is legal in the rifle in all three and legal in the pistols as well in Sultan of Smoke or King of Kaboom. You may shoot your Walkers or Dragoons if you want in Sultan of Smoke or King of Kaboom. The requirement of .45 Colt with bp or 777 in CHN is to maximize recoil in the pistols. What we have works and I don't see any changes coming, certainly no more categories or subcategories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I do know that lots of people will experience holes blown in the center of the pattern with the really heavy bp loads. I suspect that 60-65 is also about as high as we can go with modern plastic wads, but I haven't really experimented.Are you in for next year? Dick, interesting to hear some folks experience blown holes and can't get a square load of powder in a 12ga shell (82grs) * First, I have never had any blown holes with hulls loaded with a square load and #4-#6-#7.5 or #8 * I load my shells by the case and have cases of each loaded this way with 82gr of Skirmish Fg powder using a MEC 650 or MEC SizeMaster: - The old fashion way: powder-nitro card-lubed wad-shot-crimped or overshot wad then rolled - The easy way using WAA12-12ga or the Clay Buster equivalents The hulls are not bulging and 1 1/8 oz with the square load fit perfectly. The powder is compressed heavily stopping at the 90-100 lb mark on the press Am I in for next year? Really would be enjoyable but the travel distance exceeds what I like to drive anymore. The option is as Cemetery desires - bring em to Jersey! He will have to remember to put the correct spout on his flask though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Appalachian Alan Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 "I don’t understand why .44 WCF, the best BP caliber out there, would not be allowed & certainly don’t see why 777 would ever be preferred over real BP" WHY? because me and Cherokee Big Dawg had 45 pistols. 777 was the hottest load. and at the time only 777 was allowed in CHN You could take the Name away from the champ at ANY match. Why 44-40 allowed in Rifle ? Because I only had a 44-40 I tried 5 months before I could beat Cherokee, Took it, and then he followed me the next day to Knobcreek to try to get it back... "try" LOL anyways, I'm proud to still see the interest in these "sub" catagories. No matter what the local club names it. I will do my best to see them recognized at KY State and hopefully at KYBP State Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 44-40 has been alowed for pistol in the past.....iffn Cherokee Big Dawg likes yu gud nuff then he makes a special dispensation and will allow it,,,,,nanner nanner! Cheyenne, adopted son of the hillbilly nation, Culpepper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Or, you could shoot Sultan of Smoke with your 44-40's. Sultan of Smoke?? Hey I like that, got a nice ring to it! Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880 Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Howdy All: Buffy, I'll come on down and shoot Sultan of Smoke(cap guns you know) . Missed the last couple of years. Time to change that. Regards, Mike (the) Fink Super! I figure we have a year to get the word out. Blackjack couldn't get off work this year but I'm sure he'll want in. Stonecreek and Split Rail should be good. I'm going to do my best to talk this up at every match I attend between now and next year's Smokeout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880 Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 "I don’t understand why .44 WCF, the best BP caliber out there, would not be allowed & certainly don’t see why 777 would ever be preferred over real BP" WHY? because me and Cherokee Big Dawg had 45 pistols. 777 was the hottest load. and at the time only 777 was allowed in CHN You could take the Name away from the champ at ANY match. Why 44-40 allowed in Rifle ? Because I only had a 44-40 I tried 5 months before I could beat Cherokee, Took it, and then he followed me the next day to Knobcreek to try to get it back... "try" LOL anyways, I'm proud to still see the interest in these "sub" catagories. No matter what the local club names it. I will do my best to see them recognized at KY State and hopefully at KYBP State It may have been serendipitous but there is not a whole lot of difference between .45 Colt and .44-40 in the rifle, but a BIG difference in the pistols. I've also found it a lot easier to keep the .44-40 running in the rifle over a complete match. However it happened, you and CBD came up with a winning formula. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stump Water Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 A yeer ta git redee... Thet'd be jus bearlee enuf tahm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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