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Wolf Bane, SASS 13557

Safety Question...PWB Please Weigh In!

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At a recent match I was Posse Marshal of an excellent posse. One of the shooters, though, had a problem with squib loads. We've all been there, but this was extreme -- rifle and pistol squibs on 4 ( maybe 5) out of 6 stages. Even though we were short on RO2s to run the timer (me and 2 others for an 18 person posse), we got the shooter through the match without us picking pieces of gun out of our hair.

 

Was I wrong in not stopping the shooter from continuing the match with that ammunition after multiple squibs? In retrospect, I think now I should have drawn a line on safety after the first couple of stages. I handled the shooter on the last 3 stages and caught the sqibs, but it was nerve wracking to say the least.

 

I would like some input on where we as range officers need to draw that line, and/if we do draw that line what rules do we need to reference? I do know as a certified range officer in other practical sports a shooter with 2-3 squibs would probably not be allowed to proceed with that ammo.

 

Thanks for the clarification!

 

Wolf Bane

SASS13557

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Hi Wolf,

 

I hope you don't mind me answering. :unsure:

 

The answer is on Page 8 of the ROII and is as follows.

"Squibs

In the event a Chief Range Officer suspects a squib load has been encountered, an

immediate command shall be given to the shooter to make that firearm safe and continue

on with the next procedure. The CRO will preferably, allow the shooter to make the firearm

safe on a nearby and appropriate horizontal surface (box, table, straw bale, ground,

or the like), or if necessary, assist the shooter by allowing them to “hand off” the firearm.

Multiple squibs by a shooter will be cause for the Timer Operator to request the shooter

change ammo."

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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To bad someone couldn't have offered different Ammo. After a couple of stages like that your right you get very concerned when that shooter comes up! Nbc

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Dang Allie Mo,yer fast ;) Yep, the shooter should have found some different ammo. Then after the match maybe invest in a powder cop or lockout die :o:D Good Luck :)

 

ROII page 8

Squibs

Multiple squibs by a shooter will be cause for the Timer Operator to request the shooter change ammo.

 

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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Hi Folks,

 

The reason I was fast is that I shot a annual match where a shooter had multiple squibs, was never told to change ammo, even got a reshoot (because TO said "there's a little known rule [NOT] that if the TO touches the shooter, he/she gets a reshoot. I said there is no such rule when dealing with a squib. Berm marshall, another TG, sided with TO and gave shooter a reshoot.

 

Then, when shooter got another squib in his rifle, he shot it up into the air when clearing it. He didn't get a penalty for that either. SCARY!

 

Something that horrendously wrong, will stick with you for a while.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Hi Wolf,

 

I hope you don't mind me answering. :unsure:

 

The answer is on Page 8 of the ROII and is as follows.

"Squibs

In the event a Chief Range Officer suspects a squib load has been encountered, an

immediate command shall be given to the shooter to make that firearm safe and continue

on with the next procedure. The CRO will preferably, allow the shooter to make the firearm

safe on a nearby and appropriate horizontal surface (box, table, straw bale, ground,

or the like), or if necessary, assist the shooter by allowing them to “hand off” the firearm.

Multiple squibs by a shooter will be cause for the Timer Operator to request the shooter

change ammo."

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

 

Agreed. But what if the shooter can't or won't switch ammo? Does the CRO DQ the shooter from the match? Seems to me that in the interests of safety that should be the case.

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What does "request" mean? And if shooter fails to follow the "request", what then??????

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Hi Gents,

 

I've never seen a lack of folks willing to loan another shooter ammo and a gun, if needed.

 

IMO, this is not a request that should be refused. I think the following from page 3 of the ROI is applicable to this situation. "Range Officers and shooters are expected to confront any participant observed in an unsafe situation, and it is expected the matter will quickly be corrected and not repeated. Any argument concerning the correction of a safety related matter can be expected to result in the offending shooter’s ejection from the range."

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Allie Mo

 

I guess I don't understand exactly what you meant by this

 

Then, when shooter got another squib in his rifle, he shot it up into the air when clearing it. He didn't get a penalty for that either. SCARY!

 

 

Do you mean the shooter had a squib round in the barrel and fired it out with another round,pointed up in the air.

 

I think I would check that club off my list of places to shoot at.

 

Adios Sgt. Jake

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Allie Mo

 

I guess I don't understand exactly what you meant by this

 

Then, when shooter got another squib in his rifle, he shot it up into the air when clearing it. He didn't get a penalty for that either. SCARY!

 

 

Do you mean the shooter had a squib round in the barrel and fired it out with another round,pointed up in the air.

 

I think I would check that club off my list of places to shoot at.

 

Adios Sgt. Jake

Hi Sgt. Jake,

 

All I know is he had a squib in his rifle and took his to the ULT. Then I heard a shot and he had his rifle pointing up. The other squib was in his pistol.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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What does "request" mean? And if shooter fails to follow the "request", what then??????

I think the answer to these questions is easy. Safety is first and foremost and if he has to stop shooting for the day so be it, or would it be better to read this headline in the local paper "Man shoots his face off at local gun match" .....Doc

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Wolf Bane, After multiple squibs by the same shooter, I'd say that you were wrong to let the shooter continue to shoot the remaining stages with the same ammo. Not trying to hang you out to dry, just my opinion.

 

There are some clubs around Florida that have a "2 squib" a match rule. That is that if a shooter has 2 squibs during the match, shooter must use different ammo or hang it up for the day. Can't say I disagree with this rule.

 

Like has been stated, safety is paramount whenever firearms are used. In this case, it is always better to err on the side of safety than to have someone incur preventable injury.

 

CS

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allie i think the club should back up and and see some pictures of brokenup guns due to squibs this is not a pass off thing. you can get really hurt . they gave re shoot on a safety matter. when the shooter shot the rifle into the air that should have been grounds for his walking papers. i think a smatr check should be done on a couple of people. sounds like an unsafe club to shoot with. a matter of time till murphy takes control and gets the last laff in.(SCARRY SCARRY)

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Ref: Allie Mo's post #'s 2 & 9 for the applicable rules.

IMO, "multiple squibs" = "more than ONE".

 

If the shooter refused the "request to change ammo" or to otherwise remedy the situation, I would have refused to run the timer (and would not have let anyone ELSE run it either).

Shooter would have been directed to the ULT...and, perhaps (depending on attitude) off the range.

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Wolf Bane, After multiple squibs by the same shooter, I'd say that you were wrong to let the shooter continue to shoot the remaining stages with the same ammo. Not trying to hang you out to dry, just my opinion.

 

There are some clubs around Florida that have a "2 squib" a match rule. That is that if a shooter has 2 squibs during the match, shooter must use different ammo or hang it up for the day. Can't say I disagree with this rule.

 

Like has been stated, safety is paramount whenever firearms are used. In this case, it is always better to err on the side of safety than to have someone incur preventable injury.

 

CS

 

WB, Sun it right about this, but it's not a rule you will find under "ammo" in the handbook. It does fall under what Allie Mo posted. If a RO makes the "request" to a shooter and they don't have, or can not find replacement ammo, then they are done for the day down here. There is no magic number per se', but it seems that "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me" applies. Anyone can make a mistake during the reloading process but twice indicates a pattern. Safety demands caution and sometimes being overly polite can get someone hurt. Just think back to your IPSC days........(yeah, I knew you back then too).

 

Dang It Dan

USPSA TY-8513

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Wolf Bane,

 

This situation was much more dangerous than you think. The powder charge that did not go into the squib loads double charge the other cases.

 

I was at a match one time with a similiar shooter. After multiple squibs he found a round that had been double charged...when his nice Schofield blew up like a hand grenade.

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Lady and Gentlemen;

 

Thank you SO MUCH! You are all absolutely right that I was absolutely wrong and should have stopped a potentially unsafe situation. I will do so in the future.

 

Let me reiterate what I'm reading here, because a lot of people my Sweetie and I shoot with on a regular basis read the Wire;

 

1) If a shooter has MORE THAN ONE squib, my response as a posse leader, timer operator or counter, is to request that the shooter change ammunition before proceeding in the match.

 

2) For the sake of definition, a "squib" is defined as a "cartridge with little or no powder, resulting in a bullet either lodging in or barely exiting the barrel." I have had cases with other shooter where the bullet barely exited the barrel and some some cases actually hit the target. My argument for including these rounds as "squibs" is that while they might have exited the short barrel of a handgun, they would definitely have lodged in the longer barrel of the rifle. In a case where the shooter is using the same ammo in pistol and rifle, the rounds are potentially dangerous. As timer operator I will stop any shooter from proceeding if I think a squib round has been fired, whether it exits the barrel or not.

 

3) If I am not a posse leader, timer operator or counter at the time, I will ask the range officer in charge to issue the request for the shooter to change ammo for safety reasons.Any shooter can or should call a safety violation.

 

4) If a shooter has a SECOND squib in a match, as a range officer I will stop the shooter, make the firearm in question safe (safely downed on a horizontal surface; handed off; etc.), send the shooter to the ULT and not allow that shooter to proceed in the match without a shane of ammo

 

5) If the shooters can change ammo or borrow either ammo or a different gun and ammo, he or she can proceed with the match.

 

6) If the shooter CANNOT change the ammo or borrow different gun or ammo, he or she will NOT be allowed to proceed in the match.

 

7) If necessary -- and I profoundly hope it will never be so -- the shooter can be asked to leave the range.

 

I'm sorry to make such a big deal of this, but it is an issue I see on a regular basis and I think this clarification is extremely helpful.

 

Wolf Bane

SASS13557

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Wolf Bane,

 

This situation was much more dangerous than you think. The powder charge that did not go into the squib loads double charge the other cases.

 

I was at a match one time with a similiar shooter. After multiple squibs he found a round that had been double charged...when his nice Schofield blew up like a hand grenade.

Yikes!

 

I'm so glad you brought this up as I too have seen a similar event and forgot all about it. A shooter had one squib, okay fine. Then, a while later he came across a double charged round. It blew the grips off his 1911. It did make his hand bleed; but, no permananent damage was done. He finished the match with a borrowed gun and ammo.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS Thanks for asking the question, Wolf. It is a good reminder to all of us of the dangers associated with squibs.

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Bane, it was a strange match ammo wise, and more than one shooter had squibs on our posse, and there was other strangeness going on as well. I blame it on zombies.

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Hi Folks,

 

The reason I was fast is that I shot a annual match where a shooter had multiple squibs, was never told to change ammo, even got a reshoot (because TO said "there's a little known rule [NOT] that if the TO touches the shooter, he/she gets a reshoot. I said there is no such rule when dealing with a squib. Berm Marshall, another TG, sided with TO and gave shooter a reshoot.

 

Then, when shooter got another squib in his rifle, he shot it up into the air when clearing it. He didn't get a penalty for that either. SCARY!

 

Something that horrendously wrong, will stick with you for a while.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

No dog in this, but I'd be interested to know WHY, at an ANNUAL match, the shooter wasn't penalized. Friend of the T.O. and T.G.? Or Match Director? Or maybe a "big name" shooter they didn't want to embarrass? And WHERE was this shoot at?

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Lady and Gentlemen;

 

Thank you SO MUCH! You are all absolutely right that I was absolutely wrong and should have stopped a potentially unsafe situation. I will do so in the future.

 

Let me reiterate what I'm reading here, because a lot of people my Sweetie and I shoot with on a regular basis read the Wire;

 

1) If a shooter has MORE THAN ONE squib, my response as a posse leader, timer operator or counter, is to request that the shooter change ammunition before proceeding in the match.

 

2) For the sake of definition, a "squib" is defined as a "cartridge with little or no powder, resulting in a bullet either lodging in or barely exiting the barrel." I have had cases with other shooter where the bullet barely exited the barrel and some some cases actually hit the target. My argument for including these rounds as "squibs" is that while they might have exited the short barrel of a handgun, they would definitely have lodged in the longer barrel of the rifle. In a case where the shooter is using the same ammo in pistol and rifle, the rounds are potentially dangerous. As timer operator I will stop any shooter from proceeding if I think a squib round has been fired, whether it exits the barrel or not.

 

3) If I am not a posse leader, timer operator or counter at the time, I will ask the range officer in charge to issue the request for the shooter to change ammo for safety reasons.Any shooter can or should call a safety violation.

 

4) If a shooter has a SECOND squib in a match, as a range officer I will stop the shooter, make the firearm in question safe (safely downed on a horizontal surface; handed off; etc.), send the shooter to the ULT and not allow that shooter to proceed in the match without a shane of ammo

 

5) If the shooters can change ammo or borrow either ammo or a different gun and ammo, he or she can proceed with the match.

 

6) If the shooter CANNOT change the ammo or borrow different gun or ammo, he or she will NOT be allowed to proceed in the match.

 

7) If necessary -- and I profoundly hope it will never be so -- the shooter can be asked to leave the range.

 

I'm sorry to make such a big deal of this, but it is an issue I see on a regular basis and I think this clarification is extremely helpful.

 

Wolf Bane

SASS13557

I was at a shoot once and saw a shooter put five pieces of lead in his Ruger barrel. All went boom except the first one, but last 4 sounded real strange and had lots of fire from cylinder gap. You could really see the fire from the loading table. Gunsmith had to remove them and gun was not damaged. He volunteered to stop shooting after RO and spotters were replaced for the match by the PM for not stopping him.

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Excellent subject! Well done, Wolf Bane!

Most experienced Timers have gone through that. Seems to occur more often at local monthlys, but can occur anywhere. This kind of hashing out real life situations, help others to understand, that we ( as a Time Operator ) do not have to put ourselves into a extrememly nerve-rackin, stressful ---I wonder what is gonna happen next with this shooter situation!!! ??

 

Thanks for makin me a better, more aware timer! ;)

 

Chow!

Oklahoma Dee

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No dog in this, but I'd be interested to know WHY, at an ANNUAL match, the shooter wasn't penalized. Friend of the T.O. and T.G.? Or Match Director? Or maybe a "big name" shooter they didn't want to embarrass? And WHERE was this shoot at?

Hello C.J.,

 

I won't say where or who, as this was many years ago. I think folks are more savvy about the rules and effects of squibs now. I will tell you that it was not a "big name" shooter.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Wolf,

This would have had me stressed to the max. Expecting every shot to be a squib would take some of the fun out of the match as an RO.

Please remember that as a posse marshal, you have people to escalate to if you are having these kind of issues and are not sure how to handle. Have a talk with the match director or safety director. They will be able to resolve the issue and get you out of the line of fire. And they will have a set of manuals with them.

 

The same with the shortage of TOs on your posse. I've been to that match and had only two TOs on my posse. A quick discussion with the MD and we found a couple of folks willing to shift posses to help out. This happens occasionally when it's open sign-up for the posse's.

 

Stay safe and have fun. And thanks for bringing this topic up. Good discussion.

 

GW

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I don't want to steal this thread, but to get a clear idea on the call.

 

I know that with multiple squibs the shooter should be told to replace their ammo.

 

Lets say that a shooter has a pistol squib on stage one. They ground the pistol and move on.

Stage two the same shooter had a squib in pistol one, grounds it, then has a squib in pistol two.

 

As the TO do I: #1. Let the shooter finish the stage as best they can.

#2. Stop the shooter and DQ the stage.

#3. Stop the shooter and offer them a stage reshoot if they can replace their ammo.

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Then, when shooter got another squib in his rifle, he shot it up into the air when clearing it. He didn't get a penalty for that either. SCARY!

 

 

It is my understanding that any discharge at either the loading table or unloading table is to be penalized. I do not have references handy at the moment, but it is my understanding that not even the posse leader can authorize a gun to be shot at the unloading table. The shooter must return to the line and discharge the gun there rather than at the unloading table.

 

So the shooter in question should have been assessed either a SDQ or perhaps even a MDQ for discharging the rifle at the unloading table.

 

Hope PWB can clarify which penalty should have been assessed.

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I don't want to steal this thread, but to get a clear idea on the call.

 

I know that with multiple squibs the shooter should be told to replace their ammo.

 

Lets say that a shooter has a pistol squib on stage one. They ground the pistol and move on.

Stage two the same shooter had a squib in pistol one, grounds it, then has a squib in pistol two.

 

As the TO do I: #1. Let the shooter finish the stage as best they can.

#2. Stop the shooter and DQ the stage.

#3. Stop the shooter and offer them a stage reshoot if they can replace their ammo.

 

Immediate action?

 

#1: Depends on whether the shooter has already shot the rifle or is using the same ammo in rifle as in pistols.

No reason to stop the shooter & DQ the stage if the only issue is revolver ammo (both are now disabled).

Finish the stage and count misses for the squibs & any remaining unfired rounds in the pistols.

"Request" that the shooter change revolver ammo with the provision that, if refused, the shooter will no longer be allowed to shoot.

 

RE: #3...there are NO GROUNDS for offering a RESHOOT if the problem is failure of the bullets to clear the barrel.

 

REF: RO2 p.8

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It is my understanding that any discharge at either the loading table or unloading table is to be penalized. I do not have references handy at the moment, but it is my understanding that not even the posse leader can authorize a gun to be shot at the unloading table. The shooter must return to the line and discharge the gun there rather than at the unloading table.

 

So the shooter in question should have been assessed either a SDQ or perhaps even a MDQ for discharging the rifle at the unloading table.

 

Hope PWB can clarify which penalty should have been assessed.

 

MATCH DISQUALIFICATION

...

• Any discharge that hits the ground or stage prop less than five feet from the shooter, any discharge at the loading or unloading areas, or discharge that is deemed unsafe .

RO1 p.25

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Once again, let me ask for a bit of clarification to Manassas Jack's scenario. As I wrote in the earlier post, my thinking at this point is that if a shooter has a squib, rifle or pistol, on Stage 1, then has a subsequent squib, rifle or pistol, on Stage 2, I would stop the shooter from proceeding immediately after the second squib if the shooter still has a second pistol or the rifle to shoot and DQ the stage for safety reasons. If only the shotgun remains to be shot, then the shooter can continue on.

 

Unless it is obvious due to caliber differences, I have no way of know whether the shooter is using the same or different ammo in rifle and pistol. That is, however, a fair assumption. If the rifle remains to be shot, I could, alternately, ask the shooter whether he or she is using the same ammo in the rifle before allowing that shooter to proceed. However, the middle of a stage is a bad time to hold a discussion with a shooter and in my experience can introduce its own safety problems.

 

Sorry to be so anal about this, guys, but I really want to hammer out what needs to happen!

 

Wolf Bane

SASS13557

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Once again, let me ask for a bit of clarification to Manassas Jack's scenario. As I wrote in the earlier post, my thinking at this point is that if a shooter has a squib, rifle or pistol, on Stage 1, then has a subsequent squib, rifle or pistol, on Stage 2, I would stop the shooter from proceeding immediately after the second squib if the shooter still has a second pistol or the rifle to shoot and DQ the stage for safety reasons. If only the shotgun remains to be shot, then the shooter can continue on.

 

Unless it is obvious due to caliber differences, I have no way of know whether the shooter is using the same or different ammo in rifle and pistol. That is, however, a fair assumption. If the rifle remains to be shot, I could, alternately, ask the shooter whether he or she is using the same ammo in the rifle before allowing that shooter to proceed. However, the middle of a stage is a bad time to hold a discussion with a shooter and in my experience can introduce its own safety problems.

 

Sorry to be so anal about this, guys, but I really want to hammer out what needs to happen!

 

Wolf Bane

SASS13557

 

 

I want to jump in with my guess before PWB just to see if I'm even close to being right.

 

I agree with you on the possible difference between rifle and pistol ammo but, for the sake of safety, you have to stop the shooter. Let's say the squibs were all in his pistols, he still had the rifle to shoot when you stopped him and he was shooting different ammo in his rifle. THAT would be grounds for a re-shoot since the squibs weren't happening with the rifle. The major caveat would be that he'd have to change pistol ammo before the re-shoot.

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Immediate action?

 

#1: Depends on whether the shooter has already shot the rifle or is using the same ammo in rifle as in pistols.

...

 

Once again, let me ask for a bit of clarification to Manassas Jack's scenario. As I wrote in the earlier post, my thinking at this point is that if a shooter has a squib, rifle or pistol, on Stage 1, then has a subsequent squib, rifle or pistol, on Stage 2, I would stop the shooter from proceeding immediately after the second squib if the shooter still has a second pistol or the rifle to shoot and DQ DNF the stage for safety reasons. If only the shotgun remains to be shot, then the shooter can continue on.

 

Unless it is obvious due to caliber differences, I have no way of know whether the shooter is using the same or different ammo in rifle and pistol. That is, however, a fair assumption.

If the rifle remains to be shot, I could, alternately, ask the shooter whether he or she is using the same ammo in the rifle before allowing that shooter to proceed.

However, the middle of a stage is a bad time to hold a discussion with a shooter and in my experience can introduce its own safety problems.

 

Sorry to be so anal about this, guys, but I really want to hammer out what needs to happen!

 

Wolf Bane

SASS13557

 

That, IMO, would be a perfectly acceptable way of handling such a situation.

Once the shooter has made the "squibbed" firearm safe, ASK if any remaining firearms are using the same ammo.

If NO...consider allowing the shooter to complete the stage.

If YES...do NOT allow the shooter to use any of those firearms to complete the stage.

Assess misses for any unfired rounds (including the bullet stuck in the barrel).

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