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Time for a Rule Change


Cypress Sam, SASS #10915

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It has been proven many times that there is NO competitive advantage to stoking a '97 on the clock. Times for 4 to 6 shots are faster single loading than any other way when starting with an empty gun. In fact, I seriously doubt that someone starting with a speed loader could beat some of the fast '97 shooters if they started with empty guns.

 

The benefit of such a change in the rules to permit stoking on the clock is strictly the FUN factor. It's also good practice for Wild Bunch matches.

 

It's time for a hue and cry from the masses to change the rule to permit stoking!

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Nope... I'm thinkin' they should outlaw the '97 altogether in CAS instead. There is no competitive advantage for a 'fast shooter', but unless you factor in the extreme failure rate of the '97 it is clear that a good runnin' '97 will outrun a good SXS by all but the fastest, most proficient shooters time after time.

 

Especially when it comes to a double flier scenario, the pump gun is a definite advantage even loaded from the person. I've never seen a SxS shooter grab 4 and shoot 'activator, activator, bird, bird'. Not saying that there is no one, no how able to do it. Just sayin' that I've never even seen it attempted at any level of competition. Whereas, I have seen Bud do it and do it with time to spare.

 

If you're talking even playing field then let that relic be what it is in WBAS. Eveywhere else, a coach gun is the most period and lacking that then 2 at a time is plenty of rounds in a gun.

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Hi Sam,

 

We don't need a rule change as the scenario writer can just put the allowance in the scenario.

 

The following is from page 11 of the SHB.

"Pump and lever action shotguns are allowed to load no more than two live rounds at a time in the main match stages unless specified in the stage description. In team events, shotguns may be loaded to their maximum magazine capacity."

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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I agree. This is a change that is long overdue. Forcing 97 users to pretend they are a single shot shotgun is just plain silly. For the fun factor, it should be allowed.

 

Yes, I know that it can be allowed for in writing the stage scenario, but in the few years I've been doing this, I have seen it done at only one shoot, and then at only one stage of that shoot.

 

For that matter, it should also be allowed with the 87.

 

And relegating the 97 to WB only or to some newly recreated Modern category is also a bad idea. The whole point of our game is to have fun with our pre-1900 design guns. And the 97 IS a pre 1900 design. Banning the 97 like this makes sense only if you also ban the Henry Big Boy (which some would like) and the Ruger! (Which would rightly cause howls of protest!)

 

The rule that really needs to go is the "97's are the only legal pump shotgun" one. In my opinion ANY pre-1900 design repeating shotgun, THAT IS SAFE TO USE, should be allowed. Sure, this still makes orginal 93's and the Marlin a no no, and properly so for safety reasons, but it would allow for the 93/97, the Burgess, the Spencer, and the theoretical replication of these olde time designs.

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Nope... I'm thinkin' they should outlaw the '97 altogether in CAS instead. There is no competitive advantage for a 'fast shooter', but unless you factor in the extreme failure rate of the '97 it is clear that a good runnin' '97 will outrun a good SXS by all but the fastest, most proficient shooters time after time.

 

Especially when it comes to a double flier scenario, the pump gun is a definite advantage even loaded from the person. I've never seen a SxS shooter grab 4 and shoot 'activator, activator, bird, bird'. Not saying that there is no one, no how able to do it. Just sayin' that I've never even seen it attempted at any level of competition. Whereas, I have seen Bud do it and do it with time to spare.

 

If you're talking even playing field then let that relic be what it is in WBAS. Eveywhere else, a coach gun is the most period and lacking that then 2 at a time is plenty of rounds in a gun.

 

Actually depending on the design of the flyer it can be done. Im about a little above average with a sxs and ive done it. BUT that shoot has been noted to have extra long delays with thier fliers. Duece's speed makes me look slow as molasses so im pretty sure he could do it too without working up a sweat.

Coyote cap said drifter is capable of doing it with a 97 and seeing him shoot id have to agree.

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Personally after thirteen years in the game, I'd like to see a moratorium placed on rule changes for the next five years. I think we are legslating ourselves away from the original intent of the sport. Seems the majority of requested rule changes are to give one group of shooters an advantage or to theoretically take it away from another. Not exactly spirit of the game. We have so many rules today that it takes two courses to cover them all. Enough already, let's go back to having fun.

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Brother King,

I mostly shoot a double my own self these days and wouldn't argue with you too much about a '97 not being "cowboy". I also won't argue with you about two poppers and two flying clays being possible with a '97 shot popper-popper, clay-clay. My argument is that the same scenario shot with the '97 is faster single loading than stoking.

 

I've not tried the popper-popper clay-clay with my double, so whether it can be done or not, I don't know. I personally can't do it with a single loaded '97 either. But I bet a good solid double shooter could beat most any shooter stoking a '97 and shooting a scenario that read "knock down two poppers and break two flying clays any order". It would be interesting to do some experiments.

 

If anyone has any experience comparing on-the-clock-stoked '97's vs single loaded '97's vs doubles, I'd like to see if it matches what I've found.

 

Allie Mo, I know that the stage writer has the option of allowing stoking if they want. My main point is that the argument against stoking: "because it gives the stoker an advantage", is not factually correct. In my own tests, I am 2 seconds faster single loading than stoking for 6 shots. (10+ seconds stoking and 8+ seconds single loading)

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Personally after thirteen years in the game, I'd like to see a moratorium placed on rule changes for the next five years. I think we are legslating ourselves away from the original intent of the sport. Seems the majority of requested rule changes are to give one group of shooters an advantage or to theoretically take it away from another. Not exactly spirit of the game. We have so many rules today that it takes two courses to cover them all. Enough already, let's go back to having fun.

 

Dances has a point...

 

As my earlier post indicated, while I would favor such a rule change, when all is said and done, our game is pretty good as is, and we don't really NEED this change, as nice as some of us might think it could be.

 

On the other hand, a moratorium on changes doesn't quite sit well with me. Even if we don't make any changes for the next 10 years, we should always have the option of discussing and considering them. Afterall, we just might come up with some "change" that would really make the game better. What that change would be, I don't know. I just don't like the idea of shutting off debate.

 

Perhaps the best way to say it is that any rule change should be carefully considered before implementing, or perhaps even tried on a trial bases to see how it works.

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DancesWithPitBulls, I wouldn't think that eliminating a restrictive rule would benefit anyone or place added restrictions on anyone. I could point out that the original CAS rules permitted stoking on the clock and if memory serves, they also permitted preloading '97's. But that soon changed since it benefitted pumps at the expense of doubles. When most people were double-loading the '97, it was pretty evenly matched with the double with the double having a slight advantage.

 

When single loading became the norm, the game changed and '97's could again match and even beat doubles. Stoking the '97 on-the-clock would do nothing to change this. The only reason I can think of that anyone would even do it is the FUN factor.

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As to the double popper deal, I can do it, and I've seen many others do it too, at winter range to be specific,,,of course it makes a difference how high the poppers fly....

 

CC

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The benefit of such a change in the rules to permit It's good practice for Wild Bunch matches.

 

 

That's what I'm reading. MT

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Nope... I'm thinkin' they should outlaw the '97 altogether in CAS instead. There is no competitive advantage for a 'fast shooter', but unless you factor in the extreme failure rate of the '97 it is clear that a good runnin' '97 will outrun a good SXS by all but the fastest, most proficient shooters time after time.

 

Especially when it comes to a double flier scenario, the pump gun is a definite advantage even loaded from the person. I've never seen a SxS shooter grab 4 and shoot 'activator, activator, bird, bird'. Not saying that there is no one, no how able to do it. Just sayin' that I've never even seen it attempted at any level of competition. Whereas, I have seen Bud do it and do it with time to spare.

 

If you're talking even playing field then let that relic be what it is in WBAS. Eveywhere else, a coach gun is the most period and lacking that then 2 at a time is plenty of rounds in a gun.

 

 

+1 It should never have been allowed in the first place

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+1 It should never have been allowed in the first place

 

Good thing your weren't around back when the decision was made...

 

So 97's are an advantage in the hands of the very best in the world...on rare double popper stages. Yep...that's a grrrreat reason to wanna get ride of 'em.

 

So what about split shotgun stages????

 

What about single flyers?????

 

What about 2 shotgun target stages????

 

What about fumble factors????

 

What about having many parts that go bad at juuuuust the right moment?????

 

Don't be a SxS whinner...please!

 

Stoking is NOT faster...no advantage...if someone wants to take a bit more time so that they can have fun blasting away with the 97, I couldn't care less.

 

Phantom

:FlagAm:

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This cowboy says NO! I shoot w/ some pretty fast 97 shooters (Robyn DaVault, Hells Comin, Arizona Redneck,leave it alone.

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This cowboy says NO! I shoot w/ some pretty fast 97 shooters (Robyn DaVault, Hells Comin, Arizona Redneck,leave it alone.

 

Let em stoke the shotgun and then see just how fast they are. It WILL make a difference.

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I agree. It would slow them down, not speed them up. We always allow it at our club. Heck, I've even been known to encourage it.

 

And just for the record, two poppers and then two birds can be done with a double...even a hammer double. :D

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Good thing your weren't around back when the decision was made...

 

So 97's are an advantage in the hands of the very best in the world...on rare double popper stages. Yep...that's a grrrreat reason to wanna get ride of 'em.

 

So what about split shotgun stages????

 

What about single flyers?????

 

What about 2 shotgun target stages????

 

What about fumble factors????

 

What about having many parts that go bad at juuuuust the right moment?????

 

Don't be a SxS whinner...please!

 

Stoking is NOT faster...no advantage...if someone wants to take a bit more time so that they can have fun blasting away with the 97, I couldn't care less.

 

Phantom

:FlagAm:

 

Sorry they just are not cowboy to me and even members of the WB have said that they were a mistake. But if you want to shoot them be my guest I sure won't complain to each their own. And I do own a pair of them and have since before there was a SASS

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I agree with Possum in that I think it would slow them down.

 

And I agree that there are some SxS shooters that could successfully do the popper/popper and then flyer/flyer thing.

 

 

 

 

..........Widder

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See post #3.

 

Write the allowance to "stoke" the magazine (on the clock) into a few stages & see how many shooters take advantage of it.

 

Generally speaking (besides the aerial target example) the only time this would be a definite advantage for the majority of '97 users is if there was considerable movement with the SG from one point to another, followed by multiple (more than two) targets to engage at the firing point.

Shooter could load the magazine on the move (hammer down on fired case or empty chamber) and commence to blasting targets on arrival at the appropriate location.

 

IMO.

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I agree. This is a change that is long overdue. Forcing 97 users to pretend they are a single shot shotgun is just plain silly. For the fun factor, it should be allowed.

 

Yes, I know that it can be allowed for in writing the stage scenario, but in the few years I've been doing this, I have seen it done at only one shoot, and then at only one stage of that shoot.

 

For that matter, it should also be allowed with the 87.

 

And relegating the 97 to WB only or to some newly recreated Modern category is also a bad idea. The whole point of our game is to have fun with our pre-1900 design guns. And the 97 IS a pre 1900 design. Banning the 97 like this makes sense only if you also ban the Henry Big Boy (which some would like) and the Ruger! (Which would rightly cause howls of protest!)

 

The rule that really needs to go is the "97's are the only legal pump shotgun" one. In my opinion ANY pre-1900 design repeating shotgun, THAT IS SAFE TO USE, should be allowed. Sure, this still makes orginal 93's and the Marlin a no no, and properly so for safety reasons, but it would allow for the 93/97, the Burgess, the Spencer, and the theoretical replication of these olde time designs.

 

I contend still that this is shoddy misinformation. I own two '97s that have blown up catastrophicaly since the rule change that banned the Marlin and the '93. I bought them for parts. Ask Fredrick Jackson Turner about his '97 experience. I have four Marlin specimines, (a 19s, a 24, a 49, and a 42) and two original '93s and they are shot regularly and safely with proper ammunition and proper maintainance and inspection.

 

As far as stoking the magazine equipped shotguns in Cowboy Action Shooting, only when the stage description allows. If you need to practice Wild Bunch, don't do it during a cowboy match.

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Sorry they just are not cowboy to me and even members of the WB have said that they were a mistake. But if you want to shoot them be my guest I sure won't complain to each their own. And I do own a pair of them and have since before there was a SASS

 

Have heard members of the Wild Bunch say the same thing, yet they also shoot 97's. Seems a bit conflicting to me.

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See post #3.

 

Write the allowance to "stoke" the magazine (on the clock) into a few stages & see how many shooters take advantage of it.

 

Generally speaking (besides the aerial target example) the only time this would be a definite advantage for the majority of '97 users is if there was considerable movement with the SG from one point to another, followed by multiple (more than two) targets to engage at the firing point.

Shooter could load the magazine on the move (hammer down on fired case or empty chamber) and commence to blasting targets on arrival at the appropriate location.

 

IMO.

 

How much more of an advantage would that be over a double, especially at clubs with a 'plant then poke' rule?

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Let's at least get rid of 97's and 87'z out of B Western.....

 

DOUBLE ONLY!

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I contend still that this is shoddy misinformation. I own two '97s that have blown up catastrophicaly since the rule change that banned the Marlin and the '93. I bought them for parts. Ask Fredrick Jackson Turner about his '97 experience. I have four Marlin specimines, (a 19s, a 24, a 49, and a 42) and two original '93s and they are shot regularly and safely with proper ammunition and proper maintainance and inspection.

 

As far as stoking the magazine equipped shotguns in Cowboy Action Shooting, only when the stage description allows. If you need to practice Wild Bunch, don't do it during a cowboy match.

 

The question of if the 93 or the Marlin is actually safe is a separate issue. I only mentioned them and restated the accepted conventional wisdom as way to illustrate that I was not trying to advocate for something dangerous. I have read that the Marlin, for example CAN be a safe gun to shoot with proper testing and careful maintanence. But, that is a whole OTHER can of worms.

 

And I don't get this stoking of the 97 on the clock is somehow practice for Wild Bunch. WB shooting starts with the 97 loaded at the loading table, and nobody is advocating for that. Just that those of us who use period repeating shotguns be allowed to stoke them on the clock.

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How much more of an advantage would that be over a double, especially at clubs with a 'plant then poke' rule?

 

If you have SIX targets at the SG firing position and are allowed to stoke the magazine while moving to that location, I maintain that there would be considerable advantage over a SxS that could only load TWO while moving; close action & fire two upon arrival; shuck 2; load 2 more; fire & shuck 2; then load two more.

The amount of "advantage" would be dependent on the distance traveled.

:rolleyes:

 

No consideration was given to a club with a "plant then poke" rule as that is NOT listed in the SASS regs.

As I understand that "club/range rule", though, neither a '97 nor a SxS shooter would be allowed to load on the move.

<_<

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Let me put my rememberin' cap on... AISTR, the '97 was discussed in the formation of SASS, as a Modern Category only gun, and whether stokin' the '97 was to be allowed. At the time, ALL '97 users that I can think of fed one in the tube, and pushed one in the magazine. The fastest double gunners could outrun '97 users loading thusly. However, the average shooter couldn't. This in the days before I ever saw a beveled double chamber, sure lots of polished ones, but nary one with bevels to the point that the extractor was about the only part of the chamber with a square cut for the shotshell rim.

 

For the most part, the WB used '97s and Colts, they didn't WANT to be relegated to the modern category on the basis of their '97 shotguns. The rule regarding only being able to load two came about to demonstrate some parity with a double shooter of average skills.

 

Average skills in 1997 are a far cry from average skills in 2012! I current shoot stage times @ about twice what the average 1997 times were, And, I finish at the bottom of the pack. The first shooters I remember seeing singly loading the '97 were South Paw, Tequila and Evil Roy. They moved the bar for '97 shooters well above where it'd previously sat. I've shot a pump a lot! But, never having practiced using the single load or holding multiple shotshells in my hand, when I've shot a '97 I've loaded one in the chamber and pushed the second in the mag. Slower, I'm not so sure... for the average shooter, maybe not.

 

Back in the early '90s, I shot at a police match with my cowboy guns... SAA, lever and double. Let me put like this, I wasn't last. And I had one officer seem to feel that I'd been cheatin' with my double. So we ran 16 poppers, both starting empty in a head-to-head side match. His dudy SG would hold 8 rounds. Silly him... he loaded all 8 before he started shooting... I was finished about the time he fired his 2nd shot on his final run of 8 rounds. Close? Sure? If I'd have bobbled any reload, he'd of had me!

 

At one time, how you shot the rifle pretty much dictated how you did on a stage. With only 5 pistols rounds, it was almost, merely a placeholder... your transistons between guns and rifle work could often outweigh how one did with the pistol or shotgun... How Tex won EOT in 1986. He was exceptionally fast. Putting 6 or more shotgun targets in a stage could offset that rifle, for a guy really skilled with a shotgun, either double or '97. I can't really remember whether Tex was still using a '97 exclusively back then... I know he shortly went to a double and BP.

 

Whether it's an advantage or not, this is one of the oldest rules in SASS, if not the history of CAS. Do we really want to go back and say... we've been wrong for 30+ years? For whether there is an actual advantage or not is almost irrevalent... for the perception that being restricted to only loading 2 is the great equalizer, and has become "the truth!"

 

And whether one uses the '97 as a single shot, or a 2 shooter is strictly personal choice. Same as when I leave one standing with my double... whether I load 2 or only 1 to take it down... it's personal choice.

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Prior to the release of the movie The Wild Bunch in 1969, which movies or TV shows included cowboys using pump action shotguns along with lever action rifles and single action revolvers? My guess is none. What would John Wayne shoot?

 

The west was already won before the Gay 90's brought trombone shotguns, horseless carraiges, telephones and socialism. :lol:

Double action revolvers and bolt action rifles would be no less appropriate than pump action shotguns.

 

But I don't really care about banning something that other shooters enjoy, I'm still not going to win any prizes with my TTN 1878.. ;)

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Prior to the release of the movie The Wild Bunch in 1969, which movies or TV shows included cowboys using pump action shotguns along with lever action rifles and single action revolvers? My guess is none. What would John Wayne shoot?

 

The west was already won before the Gay 90's brought trombone shotguns, horseless carraiges, telephones and socialism. :lol:

Double action revolvers and bolt action rifles would be no less appropriate than pump action shotguns.

 

But I don't really care about banning something that other shooters enjoy, I'm still not going to win any prizes with my TTN 1878.. ;)

Never mind...

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And just for the record, two poppers and then two birds can be done with a double...even a hammer double. :D

sure... just for the record I've even done it 1 out of 3 times at practice. But, then I'm not a famous World Champion Gunfighter named Possum Skinner, either. ;)

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Prior to the release of the movie The Wild Bunch in 1969, which movies or TV shows included cowboys using pump action shotguns along with lever action rifles and single action revolvers? My guess is none. What would John Wayne shoot?

 

The west was already won before the Gay 90's brought trombone shotguns, horseless carraiges, telephones and socialism. :lol:

Double action revolvers and bolt action rifles would be no less appropriate than pump action shotguns.

 

But I don't really care about banning something that other shooters enjoy, I'm still not going to win any prizes with my TTN 1878.. ;)

 

You do know that there were excellent double action revolvers in the early 1870's...don't you???

 

And frankly, who cares what John Wayne would shoot? What would Jesus shoot????

 

:mellow:

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