Manassas Jack Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 The stage called for 10 rifle, 10 pistol, 4 shotgun in that order. The club rules in the handbook stated that shotgun knock downs may be made up and must fall to count. The stage reads "Move to right window and shoot 4 SG KD's." What happened: The shooter shoots rifle and pistol clean moves to shotgun. Engages shotgun target #1 and misses. Reengages #1 it goes down. Engages #2 and it goes down. Engages #3 and it and #4 go down. Shooter stops. The question: Four shots, four targets down...clean, next shooter. OR Shooter did not engage #4 target, award a miss or a "failure to engage"?
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 Hi Jack, The last time I saw this happen, we (I was a counter) called it clean, as the round count had been fulfilled. Regards, Allie Mo
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 +1....4 shots and 4 targets down. Sometimes luck spends better than money. Next shooter
Gunslinger SASS 10706 Life Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 Stage called for 4 shotgun, 4 shotgun fired and all targets down. Clean.
Curly Red Ryder Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 Was the shotgun cartridges count 4 or 4 plus? If four plus, clean indeed, but if four only (what is written in the OP) my opinion would be a P for non respect of the scenario, shooter having shot one extra cartridge.... Has the question been asked to the Range marshall during the walk thru?
Marshal Chance Morgun Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 I agree with Allie and Virgil. And next time, write ammo count as 4 + shotgun
Mink Shoals Bandit, #49388 Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 Prop failure. No call. Clean..................Mink
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 Stage called for 4 shotgun rounds to be fired......4 were fired.....4 targets were down......seems like the stage requirements were fulfilled...... I'd rather be lucky than good any day........ Stan
Shooting Bull Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 Was the shotgun cartridges count 4 or 4 plus? If four plus, clean indeed, but if four only (what is written in the OP) my opinion would be a P for non respect of the scenario, shooter having shot one extra cartridge.... Has the question been asked to the Range marshall during the walk thru? Nope, shooter only shot four shells. #1 = Miss #2 = Knocked down #1 target #3 = Knocked down #2 target #4 = Knoced down #3 AND #4 targets Round count satisfied + all targets down = Clean stage. Next shooter
Shamrock Sadie Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 Well said...4 shots fired; met the requirement. Clean...next shooter.
Chancy Shot, SASS #67163 Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 It would seem to me that the shooter did not fire a round at SG4. The fact that the prop failed doesn't count as a hit. A similar situation would be if the SG4 was not reset from the last shooter. Our shooter would have missed SG1 and fired another round to knock it down. He would shoot at SG2 and SG3 hitting each. I believe he would be required to fire another round to complete the stage. He would not be given a miss because of the prop failure, but he must fire the round to engage SG4. Just my view. I am curious to see what Pale Wolf has to say. Chancy
Curly Red Ryder Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 Nope, shooter only shot four shells. #1 = Miss #2 = Knocked down #1 target #3 = Knocked down #2 target #4 = Knoced down #3 AND #4 targets Round count satisfied + all targets down = Clean stage. Next shooter OK Philly, I'd poorly read the original question and have not noticed than targers#3 and 4 went down with only one shot... So you's right, benefit to the shooter, clean! My mistake.
Oklahoma Dee Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 The stage called for 10 rifle, 10 pistol, 4 shotgun in that order. The club rules in the handbook stated that shotgun knock downs may be made up and must fall to count. The stage reads "Move to right window and shoot 4 SG KD's." What happened: The shooter shoots rifle and pistol clean moves to shotgun. Engages shotgun target #1 and misses. Reengages #1 it goes down. Engages #2 and it goes down. Engages #3 and it and #4 go down. Shooter stops. The question: Four shots, four targets down...clean, next shooter. OR Shooter did not engage #4 target, award a miss or a "failure to engage"? Saw it the same thing happen, several times! It really was the wonderful winds of fortune!!! Course this never works with lottery tickets!
Rattler Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 The stage called for 10 rifle, 10 pistol, 4 shotgun in that order. The club rules in the handbook stated that shotgun knock downs may be made up and must fall to count. The stage reads "Move to right window and shoot 4 SG KD's." What happened: The shooter shoots rifle and pistol clean moves to shotgun. Engages shotgun target #1 and misses. Reengages #1 it goes down. Engages #2 and it goes down. Engages #3 and it and #4 go down. Shooter stops. The question: Four shots, four targets down...clean, next shooter. OR Shooter did not engage #4 target, award a miss or a "failure to engage"? Failure to engage Applies only to non-shooting situations!!
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 This comes up from time to time as "engage" is confused with "miss". If a shooter misses a target then a spotter has no reason to interpret which target was 'engaged'. The shooter simply missed. In this instance, the OP assumes that since the 1st shot missed then the shooter must have been shooting at the "1st" S/G target. In fact, unless order was specified there is no 1st S/G target. In this case, since no target fell on the 1st shot, but 4 shots were recorded, there may well have been a golden BB from the first shot that hit the target that slowly fell (surely out of sympathy). Sure, it's fanciful... but if it was my stage that'd be my story! And I'm stickin' too it. CLEAN....Next shooter.
Flying W Ramrod Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 The wording 4+ is not needed or really change the scenario. The rules already state that any shotgun knock down may be shot until down, no need for the 4+ phrase. I too, agree that the stage requirements were met. Hmmmmm, I heard this one recently. JM 4+ is required 'round here. Sometimes we call for 4 SG, which means just that 4 and only 4. Use of the "+" infers the "comstock rules" for shotgun i.e. pick them up is ok.
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 SASS conventions indicate that S/G targets are shot until down unless otherwise indicated. So if 4 are required but only 3 go down then 5th, 6th etc. are legal and required or it's a miss whether the stage instructions say + or not. I hope you cover that 4 means ONLY 4 at the safety meeting.
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 SASS conventions indicate that S/G targets are shot until down unless otherwise indicated. So if 4 are required but only 3 go down then 5th, 6th etc. are legal and required or it's a miss whether the stage instructions say + or not. I hope you cover that 4 means ONLY 4 at the safety meeting. Yep!
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 SASS conventions indicate that S/G targets are shot until down unless otherwise indicated. So if 4 are required but only 3 go down then 5th, 6th etc. are legal and required or it's a miss whether the stage instructions say + or not. I hope you cover that 4 means ONLY 4 at the safety meeting. Yep!
Flying W Ramrod Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 SASS conventions indicate that S/G targets are shot until down unless otherwise indicated. So if 4 are required but only 3 go down then 5th, 6th etc. are legal and required or it's a miss whether the stage instructions say + or not. I hope you cover that 4 means ONLY 4 at the safety meeting. Hence the "+" in the stage description. Ammo Count 10 Rifle; 10 Pistol; 4+ Shotgun as opposed to 10 Rifle; 10 Pistol; 4 Shotgun
Jacknife Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 I can't even believe ya have to ask. I'll let my chaufere answer that. :lol:
Ventura Slim, SASS #35690 Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 Sometimes the stage directions specify if you knock down 2 with one its okay, most often its not mentioned. When not mentioned did you fail to engage? I probably would have shot at it knowing I did not have to hit it and would probably have the shell in hand already anyway.
Blastmaster Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 I believe I would've shot at the 4th KD anyway, even though it fell. I say that with the stipulation that the distance between the 3rd and 4th target had decent seperation and not stacked on top of each other as is sometimes done. That the wind or imbalance of the target made it fall on its own rather than the shooter. Not saying the rest of you are wrong, but I don't think that was the intent of the stage writer.
Blastmaster Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 Truth be told, the intent of the stage writter has no place in the scenario. That is usually where things go wrong, intent has nothing to do with it, only what is written. He might be one of those guys that does not worry about intent and only expects that the stage be shot as written. As long as the rules are followed, any loophole is permitted, and might even be expected. Just sayin' JM As I said, I would've engaged the 4th target. The rest of the shooters can do as they please. I do believe the intent of the stage writer has a place in a match and said intent should be covered in the walk through and conveyed to the posse during the reading. But that is wishful thinking on my part. Again, if someone needs the 'loophole', as you called it, well, then,,,,,go for it. Yep, all the parts of the stage scenerio was done. Four shots fired, four targets down. The fourth target could've gone down with wind, ground vibration, never reset, or the golden bb.
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 My thinkin (which don't make it worthy of gospel) is in line with the legendary Johnny Morris. Because the club handbook, as stated in the OP, allows SG KD's (plural) to be made up, indicates 4 shots are minimally required and any additional shots are 'allowed as needed' to complete the course of fire. NO CALL on this shooter! 4 shots were fired, 4 KD's fell. ..........Widder
Lead Ringer Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 It seems with out clear range/club rules on the subject, It's going to come down to the TO to make the call. Problem then becomes, some TO's let it slide other TO's make shooters engage target. We all know it needs to be the same for all, to avoid favoritism, hurt feelings, etc. I believe most places I have a shot at would have made me engage the 4th target. What ever the call? O.k., but it should be clear and the same for all. My 2 cents....for what it's worth:) Ringer
Manassas Jack Posted October 9, 2012 Author Posted October 9, 2012 I hoped that the 4 or 4+ would not be a distraction as it was covered in the shooters match handbook and not an issue. On the subject of shoot the stage as written. The stage instructions were "MOVE TO THE RIGHT WINDOW AND SHOOT 4 SG KD's". Not all stages were written this way, but on this stage we were instructed to SHOOT 4 SG KD's. To ignore the writters intent and go with what is written shooters must shoot at all four targets down or up.
Oklahomabound Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 The stage called for 10 rifle, 10 pistol, 4 shotgun in that order. The club rules in the handbook stated that shotgun knock downs may be made up and must fall to count. The stage reads "Move to right window and shoot 4 SG KD's." What happened: The shooter shoots rifle and pistol clean moves to shotgun. Engages shotgun target #1 and misses. Reengages #1 it goes down. Engages #2 and it goes down. Engages #3 and it and #4 go down. Shooter stops. The question: Four shots, four targets down...clean, next shooter. OR Shooter did not engage #4 target, award a miss or a "failure to engage"? 10 rifle, 10 pistol, 4 shotgun in that order. - done shotgun knock downs may be made up and must fall to count. - done Move to right window and shoot 4 SG KD's." - done Engages shotgun target #1 and misses. Reengages #1 it goes down. - target dead Engages #2 and it goes down. - target dead Engages #3 and it and #4 go down. Shooter stops. - targets dead The call - Announce the shooter's time, poll the counters/spotters, pronounce "CLEAN - DO THE DANCE", watch the shooter to the unloading table, give the score keeper the the time and call. "Next Shooter"
Blastmaster Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 I hoped that the 4 or 4+ would not be a distraction as it was covered in the shooters match handbook and not an issue. On the subject of shoot the stage as written. The stage instructions were "MOVE TO THE RIGHT WINDOW AND SHOOT 4 SG KD's". Not all stages were written this way, but on this stage we were instructed to SHOOT 4 SG KD's. To ignore the writters intent and go with what is written shooters must shoot at all four targets down or up. You are the orignal poster. you were there. Is it the club policy or was it the policy of the match where a shooter could/can get two targets with one shot? Did all shooters know that, if it was a policy? If so, clean. If not, then shooter didn't shoot at four KD's. Oh, I guess one could interpet the shooter shooting at two seperate targets. Especially when the targets are set up right beside each other. If the target had blown over and was already down, before target 3 was engaged, then would that count as shot at too? How about if there was a significant distance between target 3 & 4? would target 4 being down count? Your quote of " move to the right window and shoot 4 sg kd's" . That is what should be reexamined, not that 4 KD's ended up being down after four shots.
Manassas Jack Posted October 9, 2012 Author Posted October 9, 2012 The targets 3 & 4 shared a common ground frame but were far enough appart to allow clean hits. Target #4 seemed to be unbalanced and fell when #3 fell. This happened with almost all the shooters. For us this was the second to last stage of a ten stage match and the ground was pretty torn up. Without moving the rack a yard out or in there was no fixing the target. There was no anouncement written or verbal about allowing two target hits with one shot. Five long time ROII on the posse could not agree on a answer. Some said shoot others said don't shoot but for different reasons. I would like Pale Wolf to jump in with something I can bring to settle the question.
Shooting Bull Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 on this stage we were instructed to SHOOT 4 SG KD's. Which is exactly what the shooter did. The fact that he missed the first one and then it only took him three more shots to get all four is darn good marksmanship.
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 The targets 3 & 4 shared a common ground frame but were far enough appart to allow clean hits. Target #4 seemed to be unbalanced and fell when #3 fell. This happened with almost all the shooters. For us this was the second to last stage of a ten stage match and the ground was pretty torn up. Without moving the rack a yard out or in there was no fixing the target. There was no anouncement written or verbal about allowing two target hits with one shot. Five long time ROII on the posse could not agree on a answer. Some said shoot others said don't shoot but for different reasons. I would like Pale Wolf to jump in with something I can bring to settle the question. The question was settled. Per stage instructions - the shooter was to knockdown four targets using no less than four shots. That is EXACTLY what occurred. Do not add or take away from what the directions said. Do not attempt to spin, interpet or modify - follow the stage instruction. There is NO SUCH THING as writers intent - only what was written. If the writer is unhappy with how their directions were followed - then that is a learning experience and encourages the writer to phrase it differently NEXT time. But after the directions have been written and given to the shooter, after that point the posse, TO, PM, MD or even the stage writer has no standing to penalize, or require "more" than exactly what they asked for in the stage directions.
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