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Use of technology in scoring


Grizzly Dave

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Okie.........

 

You asked to be corrected if you were wrong......ok - here we go......

 

Yessir, I like to be corrected if I am in error. I appreciate it. :)

I told you we did our homework....... ;)

 

Our guys worked with C.D.Tom and == SASS premier and A.C.E.S. are fully integrated with each other........files and info can travel back and forth.........label info too......

 

Example: The US Open in Sparta

 

1. Registration was done in Sass Premier.

 

2. Main Match Scoring was done with A.C.E.S.

 

We imported all the Posse info from SASS premier === into A.C.E.S. with the touch of "one button".......every device we had = had all the posse info in it ready to go to the stages.....

 

Same thing with Main Match Scoring = with "one button" we sent all the scoring to "SASS Premier" = then the Match directors used it from there..........

 

A.C.E.S. is also integrated with "Round Up"..............and the tech guys tell me it is easy to go with any computer, program, spread sheet, data base and pull or send info back and forth.........

 

So hope this helps you Okie......????

 

I am still not clear on the transfer of data between the smartphone and the computer. Again, I apologize, but I won't have time until this weekend to sit down with the program and run a test match. Do you have to have wireless at the range to make this work, or can you use the USB port? We have no wireless, and no electricity for that matter. We use a marine battery with a converter.

And you know what.............I'll say it again............we probably did not think of everything...........Pitt and his people who worked on this are "real good".......and we had a bunch of other folks test it and give us feedback....we actually had license to send out 100 units((APPS)) for trial......and we used the majority of those up.....T-Bone and Honey did a great job with it at the Bar 3......we have made changes along the way.........I just sat with the engineer on this, this past Monday and made a suggestion of my own on results print outs....and passed another suggestion on from a Cowboy shooters who had emailed me.....

 

I was military for many years, so I am used to being fluid. I never mind a flaw or lack of being able to do something with software as long as the software folks acknowledge the problem and make updates. Not a problem.

 

OH -- BIG NOTE: It "may" help you if you go to the website and read the info there........

 

Acesscoring.Com

 

Thanks again for all the ideas and feedback........we appreciate ya......regards..Wolf

435-669-3221

Sttarrwol@aol.com

 

I quickly perused the web site and downloaded the app on my Droid, which was very easy since I already had a Goggle account. Thanks for the feedback. As you know, folks are not very enthused with change, especially if it involves technology with us luddites. I have to sell this to the club and the scorekeepers. ;)

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Bad Hand

 

No one can "push" a score to a device..........the master only "pulls" scores from designated devices........

 

And we always recommend that "paper" is run alongside of device......

 

And the supposed to be procedure that is now in place is.............

 

1. Timer Operator calls out time then shows it to the scorer......

 

2. Scorer verify's time and TO verify's time was recorded right on paper.......

 

3. "if" shooter is signing = he verify's paper

 

Only change is...........

 

2. Scorer verify's time (( records it on device first - then paper)) and TO verify's time was recorded right on paper (( and device))........

 

3. "if" shooter is signing = he verify's paper (( and device))

 

and it is a matter of seconds entering score on device and verifying by all parties....

 

Hope this helps.......................believe me - we have though this out and tested it at shoots......made changes and tested it again...........

 

Next stop for A.C.E.S. === Com In At Cha = ask Candy (( Honey B Gracefull )) and T-Bone what they think of it........they were our Beta test sight (( 100 shooters )) and they did an awesome job.......and we even used it with a bunch of "Seniors" = and some of them never even held a "electronic device".......and learning curve was fast - 5 or 10 min = and results were fast................shoot = Honey said they did not know what to do because the results were printed out 10 min after shooting and they usually had to spend 2 to 3 hours doing it before........

 

So guess who had more time to socialize....... :)

 

So my advice..........talk to some one who has used it..........otherwise all the conjecture, concerns, ideas, perceived issues, and negative attitude...are based on what.......something you have not seen or used...........

 

You just might be pleasantly surprised.......... :)

 

Regards.............Wolf

 

PS: Okie = if ya need any help = let us know.....will try to get you out of that score shack sooner........... B)

 

 

So we still use paper scoring along with the new program, what's the improvement? And it appears to me that you feel that anyone who questions you, "have perceived issues and negative attitudes" I see, just sit down, shut up, and drink the Kool-Aid.

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So we still use paper scoring along with the new program, what's the improvement? And it appears to me that you feel that anyone who questions you, "have perceived issues and negative attitudes" I see, just sit down, shut up, and drink the Kool-Aid.

The improvement comes at the end of shooting. When the last shooters time is announced and entered the scores are DONE. No need to take score sheets inside and enter into the computer. Time entry takes the same amount of time as writing with pencil and paper.

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As someone who works with technology every day, most find it ironic that I detest it. My phone finally became "smart" a couple months ago only because my phone of the past 6 years died and I could not find a replacement.

 

I shoot cowboy because I like it and it has nothing to do with technology.

 

However, when used correctly, I understand that technology is an enabler. While I have not used the product that we are discussing here, I applaud their effort.

 

In my mind, for most clubs, all you have truly done is move the data entry from a one person entering information on a dedicated computer in the scoring shed to multiple people using hand held devices real-time in the field.

 

I understand that you may be afraid to use the little phone to enter the scores. That's OK. I don't think anyone would mind if you carry around a laptop or full size desktop computer around the range to put them in. However, the size of the phone or tablet device makes them a bit more easy to handle.

 

Y'all must be shooting at some great clubs that are overflowing with people who are willing to volunteer to do work. Around here, we find the 90-10 rule preety much holds true. 10% of the people are doing the 90% of the work. If we can delegate out the data entry work, and not burden someone to be doing this by themselves, segregated away from everyone in the scoring shed when they would rather be out having fun with their pards, then I ask why not?

 

Could there be problems? Yes. But the traditional system that we have become used to is not without fault, either. I remember hearing about a state match that happened exactly one year ago where their computer had a hard drive failure during the second day of the match. Lost everything. What happened next, they redid it the best they could using the paper backup to re-enter the data.

 

Any system is never without fault. After all, it was designed by a human. However, there are steps that we can take to ensure that we are prepared for issues when they come up.

 

So, put the score in the electronic device, double it down on paper, have everyone verify it, and call up the next shooter.

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Let me put it this way... when matches were timed using a stop watch, the electronic timer was seen a great boon. However, there was still a learning curve to operating the dern things... You ever been in the middle of a shooting sequence and hear the timer go "BEEEEP" a second time? Disconcerting, to say the least. So too, the new use of electronic score-keeping and transmitters. There will be a period of time as folks gain familarization with them. Give it some time, no one is forcing them down anyone's throat, but trust me, they will be seen at the better-run matches. Folks, (the vast majority), seem to like their scores known, (if only to themselves), and the faster that's accomplished, the better for all involved. Sitting for several hours waiting for the results of a 200+ shooter match can get rather boring. Not to mention the UNPAID time it takes those doing the input. Time better spent congratulating winners and commisorating with us "also rans). I.e. socializing! I know my wife would have rather'd been spending time with her friends than holed up in the trailer typing in scores, getting the categories and overalls scores organized, double & triple checking to ensure they were correct. Trying to decipher someone's chicken-scratch and notations... that are usually far from consistent.

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Regarding Transfer of Data between smart phone and the computer...

 

We decided early on to NOT REQUIRE a computer. This greatly reduces the cost of scoring, and also makes it easy to hand off scoring duty from club member to club member. Our club has a box with everything needed to score with ACES, and if I travel, somebody else grabs it and gets it to the match. In that box is 3 Android tablets, USB batteries, paper score logs, a battery powered WiFi router, pens, and weather proof bags for the Androids.

 

So... back to the smart phone and computer question....

 

No transfer is required. ACES scores the match completely. I scored US Open, for instance, with it and never opened up my MacBook.

 

No computer is required. The US Open was scored, completely, with 10 iPod Touches, an iPhone and an iPad. I then posted all results directly to AcesScoring.com, and e-mailed the Match Director complete results (in PDF form) directly from my iPhone.

 

If you are using SASS Premiere, Roundup, or a database/spreadsheet for registration of a larger match, then the most direct way to get the registration data into ACES is to e-mail it to yourself from the PC running those systems, and open the attachment in the email system a smart phone. It will ask you what you want to open in, and choose ACES.

 

Similarly, if you want to get HTML or PDF results for e-mailing to match or club members, or posting on your website, you can email them directly from ACES on a device that has 3G or 4G or a wifi internet connection. At the US Open I used my iPhone as a hotspot to do this.

 

So in summary, no computer is required. And the easiest way to get registration data in, or results out, is to email them.

 

Next week, once I'm healed up from shoulder surgery (going well), I'll put up videos and pictures showing this in detail at acesscoring.com

 

Regards,

 

Pitt Viper

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So ya know, I make my living with technology.

 

I have been shooting against the clock in the whole alphabet soup of pistol, rifle and shotgun sports for decades. I have been a match director and scorekeeper. Anyone that has done scores will tell you that after scoring one match using number two pencils and Big Chief tablets, the search was on for a better way.

 

The A.C.E.S. app makes it easy for you to move your shooter data into the system, match setup and other details are truly EASY.

 

Where this thing really shines is at the small club level where they mostly have one posse. With just a little preparation, the match is setup and scored. After the last shot, the results are available within seconds.

 

I was not compensated for this endorsement.

 

Olen ;)

 

 

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Just to add to Pitt's post above.

 

You do need a way for the handhelds to talk to each other ( at some time )

Easy to set up a wireless router out of the box to do this.

 

In my case, I do NOT have internet at the range, so I cannot email the scores back and forth. Dont have cell service either.

 

So, if just using aces, the router can be used. sync them close to the router. Go out and score, sync them again at the end.

Nice to be able to sync from stage to stage, but not required.

 

If using aces with roundup or sass and have no internet for email, you can use the usb cable and sync to one handheld. Then all other sync to it wirelessly. Score, sync, then use cable to put scores back into computer ( or just score with aces )

I like putting back into the computer because I have certain stuff I want to do, but it is not required.

 

If you drop one in the mud and have not synced it yet, you always have your paper copy.

 

Most routers are 12Volt, so you could use a battery if needed.

There are a LOT of what if's that will play out. But thats why I would still have a paper copy.

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For those that use android tablets, what make and model have you used? Old eyes sometimes have trouble reading screens on a smart phone. Having the scoring screen full screen on a tablet would be great.

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I am not sure, but the android version may be a hair behind the Apple on features, but it does work.

 

web site says, Any android device running android 2.1 (Eclair) or later.

I think the current version is 2.3 or 2.4

 

so even the very very cheap androids will work if it has 2.1 or later. ( or upgradable to 2.1 )

Some of these cheap ones I would not want for myself due to the lack of cameras or gps, etc etc,

But all you need for scoring is wireless antenna

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Technology is the problem.........it's like the Government. If it gets to big folks forget how EASY things should be. If you shoot the stage in X amount of time and deduct for misses how can it be better than that.

 

IMHO all these alternatives over thought out scoring concoctions are just attempts to level the playing field.........

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Technology is the problem.........it's like the Government. If it gets to big folks forget how EASY things should be. If you shoot the stage in X amount of time and deduct for misses how can it be better than that.

 

IMHO all these alternatives over thought out scoring concoctions are just attempts to level the playing field.........

 

I kinda like the way CJ states it. Heck, I'll end up with a time in the negative region if we deduct for misses. :ph34r::lol:

 

CS

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I am not sure, but the android version may be a hair behind the Apple on features, but it does work.

 

web site says, Any android device running android 2.1 (Eclair) or later.

I think the current version is 2.3 or 2.4

 

so even the very very cheap androids will work if it has 2.1 or later. ( or upgradable to 2.1 )

Some of these cheap ones I would not want for myself due to the lack of cameras or gps, etc etc,

But all you need for scoring is wireless antenna

 

Just an FYI

 

Just did some shopping this past weekend. Was looking at Samsung products in particular. Not saying there aren't some older tablets out there but everything I saw was at least V2.2 or newer. The very latest version is 4.1(Jellybean) which I didn't see but I saw everything from V2.2(Froyo) up to and including V4.0(Ice Cream Sandwich). I've got the Samsung Galaxy S III phone and Fannie has the Samsung Galaxy Note, both of which are V4.0. Just got them so haven't yet downloaded the A.C.E.S. APP to use yet, but will soon. Have only used the IPhone version of A.C.E.S. so far. I'll let ya know what I think of the Android version when I get a chance to download and use it.

 

Grizz

 

Don't know yer cell phone status, but if yer due for an upgrade, ya might take a look at the Galaxy or Note. Both have large displays. Could be an option for ya. Yep, gettin old ain't for sissies! Diminished eye sight was a factor in our choice of phones for sure!

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Titus, I have the Samsung GIII, the display is usable for me, however I often wind up looking over the top of my glasses to read it. Were I the posse scorekeeper for an entire match it would be a strain on my eyes and I think I'd wind up with a headache. I'd much rather use a kindle fire sized device.

 

CJ, I agree on the scoring methods. What I was going for in this thread was to discuss a method to capture the scores. Once they are input, the match can be scored by whatever method desired.

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... I'd much rather use a kindle fire sized device....

 

Griz,

 

I agree with that 100%.

 

I have used the USPSA app on a phone (and a Palm) and don't much like dealing with that. I have the A.C.E.S. on my IPad and REALLY like the way it works and looks. I expect that most everyone that uses single vision shooting glasses would prefer the larger format.

 

Another bit of hardware is the IPad mini that will be about 8" and about $299 retail when it arrives later in October. Rumor is Apple has 10 million in the pipe. It looks like there will be a size and price point for every taste and budget. Hardly gets any better than that.

 

Olen

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  • 5 weeks later...

Are these all period correct type gadgets yer speakin' of?

 

Really, my only criticism is no more flipping through the scores over a beer and playing the "what if" game with the pards who beat you. It works very well for monthlys, 'cause the names crop up as a prompt early in the entry process. Luddites indeed - but the good folks who volunteer their time deserve a break. This technology seems to have the potential to do just that.

 

CR

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The one thing I don't like in the new elec scoreing.

 

It is hard for me as a TO. To see that they are putting it in right and on the right person.

 

With the paper. I would walk over to the score keeper and show them the timer and you could SEE

them write it down properly.

 

With the new thing. I just HOPE they are doing it right.

 

 

Not sure what i am going to do as a PM at CAC. When i don't know how to work the dang thing myself.

And not sure anyone on the posse does eiter.

A big regional is not the place to be trying to figure it out.

 

 

I agree on this point. Even so, a TO can watch the scores being typed, just not from in front of the scorer. I do like to have a paper copy, too, just to have some means of double checking. The advantage of the ACES system is not having to input all the data shooter by shooter, stage by stage, after the match, hustling to tabulate scores. And even a Luddite such as I was able to operate the system with only about two minutes instruction.

 

 

 

(Sorry FIlly, you know I love you dearly, but this is one point on which you and I will probably never agree)

 

I HATE the way computers/cell phones/electronic devices have taken over so much of our society that it won't be many more years before there's no one left capable of functioning without technology doing everything for them.

 

The more clubs allow technology to invade the actual shoots, instead of just using it to assist in running things AWAY from the range, the less I will be interested in attending. C'mon people, can't there still be one refuge in our lives where all the stupid toys aren't welcome?

 

I know, I'm dreaming...but I'm almost at the point dreams are all I have left for enjoyment. Aside from CAS I can't hardly leave the house to do anything fun because of society's insistance on allowing the use of cell phones and such in public regardless of how incredibly rude it is. Now it seems CAS is going down that same path to hell....another year or two and I might as well just accept that I can't go anywhere but work, grocery store, and then spend the rest of my time at home playing with the cat...

 

 

Hi, Mary! I, too, hate the way folks have phones welded to their ears, as if their very existence would be denied unless they are talking to someone on their cell. BUT! With the help of Calico Cass, I have been the scorekeeper for the Colorado Cowboys for the last six year. Taking scoresheets home, entering data for 50 or 60 shooters on six stages, or 70 to 100 shooters on 12 stages. Then tabulating. Then printing. By golly, this ACES system is the cat's pajamas! I am so glad that Painted Filly has pushed for this system ~ it will certainly make her time as scorekeeper much less of an endurance race! Way to go, Filly!

 

Salud, amigos!

eGG

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I do support using a good device for keeping score. I'm certainly not sure that the current crop of smart phones is a very good solution, though.

 

With all the extra functionality they have beyond what is needed for scoring, cell phones or small tablets can certainly introduce strong temptations for a scoring person, or just someone in the posse, to try "just a little" phoning, messaging, web surfing, posting scores real time to outsiders, or making it possible for hackers to tap in to possibly examine, alter, copy the scoring that isunderway, or to implant a virus.

 

A better scoring device would be as dedicated as a current timer is. No extra functions, rugged enough to survive regular drops on the ground without damage, coffee spills, direct rain and sleet and snow and hot and cold weather conditions, and no need for complicated interfaces. No real temptation for others to want to walk off with a great little cell phone. Big enough that a shooter can look at the results he's signing off for, without having to run get his cheater glasses. Big enough that others can see the scores that friends on the posse have shot, without having to bother the scorer ("Hey, bring up Mary's score, will you?" "Hey, who's got the fastest time so far?"). Directly changeable batteries that don't need a charger hooked up for an hour to get the device going again when "low batt" starts calling your attention.

 

That sounds a lot more like a big, rugged tablet with the ability to disable most of it's functions, instead of some of the suggestions I've seen so far for an electronic scoring device.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

You can do it with a local network with no Internet access. That would eliminate people using it for Internet surfing and keep hackers away.

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el Gato,

 

You are right this will make my job so much easier. It is awesome. Just need to learn it a bit more.

 

Painted Filly

 

 

I bet your learning curve will be faster than mine was learning data entry!:D

 

eGG

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Some years ago I designed a paper scoring system that allows small clubs to have total time scores available within a few minutes and larger clubs the ability to have "paper results" using total time available in very short order. It's not rocket science, but it works. Any club that would like a copy with instructions, just shoot me a message.

 

On to ACES. I've seen it in action and gotta say it's the bomb. Just this past weekend I made my first suggestion to the North Alabama Regulators that we look into purchasing it.

 

I guess some might argue that we don't need it as bad as some clubs because we have Drake Robey. Each time we shoot at NAR, Sugah and I arrive to find that Drake has been there long before us registering folks. Man, do I appreciate Drake! Sometime during the match, Drake will appear as the next shooter. Where'd he come from?! He stages his long guns and hands his score sheet to the scorekeeper. He shoots, gets his score sheet, unloads and disappears off to the next stage. Man, do I appreciate Drake! While we're taking our good ol' easy time shooting and enjoying the company of our pards, Drake rushes through all the stages with only enough time for quick howdy-to-yous. As soon as he gets all the stages shot, he begins gathering the posse score sheets and he's off to start entering the scores into the computer. Man, do I appreciate Drake! When we're through shooting, we pack up our gear and head to the pavilion to get something to eat and continue visiting with our pards. Some people leave. Drake is still entering scores. Have I mentioned that I appreciate Drake? Eventually, here comes Drake with scores in hand. He announces scores, folks say their see-ya'll-next-times and head for home. Finally Drake is done. Yikes! No, he's not! Later he emails scores. Man, do I appreciate Drake!

 

After thinking about it, we don't need ACES...because we've got Drake.

 

Psssst! Don't tell anybody, but really I think Drake deserves a break so he can hee-haw and shoot with the rest of us. Does your Drake need a break? I'm bettin' so.

 

 

 

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Any club that doesn't seriously consider this is doing a disservice to the person or persons that do the scoring. I consider this improvement to going from stop watches to timers. In a few years if you don't have a system such as this your club will be considered in the dark ages and you will hear alot of belly aching.

 

JMO,

 

Blue Wolf

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