Grizzly Dave Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Other threads have focused more on the scoring method, RP, TT, ST and the strengths and weaknesses of them. The technology has gotten lost in the mix, and folks have had questions and concerns about the technology that got lost in the mix, so for this thread, lets try to focus on the technology, and not the scoring method. As I understand it, the ACES system uses hand held electronic devices to capture each shooters time. The score keeper enters the time and any penalties. Some have voiced concerns about input errors. There is also chance for input errors if scores are being written with a pencil, what this system will do however, is eliminate transcription errors when the match official is inputting the scores into a computer. In effect, using paper scores input into a computer, a human had to deal with each stage time twice, with ACES only one human interaction is reguired, at the time of entry. Another concern has been what happens if one of the hand helds units crashes, or the main computer crashes. This is a real concern, and I'd imagine the ACES folks have thought it thru. I've heard of computers crashing after scores had been input, and match officials having to scramble to get another computer to tabulate the scores. With the old method at least there were the paper score sheets to go back to. I look forward to a reply from the ACES folks as to how they protect against a failure like that. It takes the drama out of the awards is another common comment. Only if data is made available to everyone. I see ACES as a data collection and manipulation tool. How it is used determines who sees the results and when. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Grizz, have you ever been a score keeper? Trust me, there can't be any more errors electronically than with paper and pen. What does it mean when a 5 is put under misses? Is that 5 misses, or is it 5 seconds? What is this hen scratching? I can't even read the numbers. This can't be right, all 20+ second scores, then a 68 second score -- sure enough, the scores were transposed with another shooter. These are just a few of the problems with paper and pen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jake1001 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Maybe we should just shoot for FUN and not keep score at all. Everybody has FUN and got to spend the day with their friends. I used to shoot for time and winning, but after this many years at it, it's mostly FUN and the people now. Jake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Bill Mathewson, 37826 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I have been playing with the ACES program some. I like what I see. My only comment is Backup and Backup often, but I say that with any computer system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Maybe we should just shoot for FUN and not keep score at all. Everybody has FUN and got to spend the day with their friends.I used to shoot for time and winning, but after this many years at it, it's mostly FUN and the people now. Jake +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 Being scored is part of how some folks have fun, back to the technology... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painted Filly Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Grizz, We have A.C.E.S and will be using it full time for the November match. I love it so far so easy to use. We will be using it on the annual as well. Painted Filly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlicLee SASS #16638 Life Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Im beginning to understand, errors are only made when using pencil or pen to write down scores but when using electronics no mistakes are made. Id like to see you fool your 10 year old with that logic. Its a good thing this isnt financial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 Im beginning to understand, errors are only made when using pencil or pen to write down scores but when using electronics no mistakes are made. Id like to see you fool your 10 year old with that logic. Its a good thing this isnt financial. I don't know how you made that leap, I didn't say that at all. Current way is this - Time, misses, penalties are recorded on paper for each shooter score sheets are entered into the computer by a match official Two people do entry, the posse score keeper, and the match official. At the stage, the shooter signs off on the scoresheet, but when it is entered into the computer, there may not be any doublecheck. With ACES, as I understand it - The posse score keeper enters the time, misses, and penalties data is handled electronically from that point. My point was that with only ONE human touching the data, it lessens the chance for human error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painted Filly Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Grizz, You are correct only one input so less change of error. Is there still a chance? Yes off course there is always a chance when there are humans involved. But less of one for sure. For the time being we will be entering on paper and in the software for a double check. Painted Filly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolina Cowboy Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Grizz, You are correct only one input so less change of error. Is there still a chance? Yes off course there is always a chance when there are humans involved. But less of one for sure. For the time being we will be entering on paper and in the software for a double check. Painted Filly Hi Painted Filly Is this good for both Total time and Rank scoring ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 As I understand it, the ACES system uses hand held electronic devices to capture each shooters time. The score keeper enters the time and any penalties. It runs as an app on iPhones, Androids, etc. That means during an annual, I have to come up with SIX smart phones to us on the six posses, try to make myself and others know how to use the app, and try to get the phones to all communicate with one another so you have a final product, the score. Sounds like too many headaches to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 It runs as an app on iPhones, Androids, etc. That means during an annual, I have to come up with SIX smart phones to us on the six posses, try to make myself and others know how to use the app, and try to get the phones to all communicate with one another so you have a final product, the score. Sounds like too many headaches to me. Not if you have one person under 30.... then they'll all work in less time than it took us both to write this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 The one thing I don't like in the new elec scoreing. It is hard for me as a TO. To see that they are putting it in right and on the right person. With the paper. I would walk over to the score keeper and show them the timer and you could SEE them write it down properly. With the new thing. I just HOPE they are doing it right. Not sure what i am going to do as a PM at CAC. When i don't know how to work the dang thing myself. And not sure anyone on the posse does eiter. A big regional is not the place to be trying to figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calico Mary Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 (Sorry FIlly, you know I love you dearly, but this is one point on which you and I will probably never agree) I HATE the way computers/cell phones/electronic devices have taken over so much of our society that it won't be many more years before there's no one left capable of functioning without technology doing everything for them. The more clubs allow technology to invade the actual shoots, instead of just using it to assist in running things AWAY from the range, the less I will be interested in attending. C'mon people, can't there still be one refuge in our lives where all the stupid toys aren't welcome? I know, I'm dreaming...but I'm almost at the point dreams are all I have left for enjoyment. Aside from CAS I can't hardly leave the house to do anything fun because of society's insistance on allowing the use of cell phones and such in public regardless of how incredibly rude it is. Now it seems CAS is going down that same path to hell....another year or two and I might as well just accept that I can't go anywhere but work, grocery store, and then spend the rest of my time at home playing with the cat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Not if you have one person under 30.... then they'll all work in less time than it took us both to write this post. You're probably right, ya danged old coot. OkieCoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Enuff Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Android tablets can cost as little as $50 each if you hunt. And yes, the worst case scenario I can think of is losing most of a stage because a tablet dies before you sync it with one of the others. This does not have to be a problem either. Just have your posse scorekeeper write the score on the paper scoresheet AND tap it into the tablet. This only takes a few extra seconds to do both and have a paper backup for emergencies. If, once in a while, you have a complete technology failure the scores can still be sorted out from the paper and posted later. This sill saves the scorekeeper from spending the whole match reentering scores into the software and trying to double check everything. The poor scorekeepers barely get to shoot. They don't get to spend time with their friends. It's a brutal job that pays nothing. If we just let the bulk of the scoring entry happen during the shoot in the posse it will be a godsend. I know what the scorekeepers go through and it's WAY past time to get them back out on the range with everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 my grandfather was opposed to the technology of his time, too. He made my father and 13 kids use the outhouse until he was too ill and my grandmother used her coffee can money to have a toilet installed in the house. He was too thick headed to listen and thought the sewage would be in the house. "Why they all want to live in their own S**t?" The calculator was going to ruin all math education. The home computer was a waste of money. The video game is a waste of time. The train will scare cows and ruin their milk. No one should have to talk more than 5 minutes on the phone. The internet will end the written word... and paper. ETC. ETC. ETC...... you'd really quit shooting because scoring is electronic? :lol: Text me a message... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painted Filly Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Yes does both rank and time and also will run on ipod touches so easy enough to get. Painted Filly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calico Mary Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Yes, I would quit. I go shooting to talk to people and have fun with people, not to watch people play with their little toys to the exclusion of those around them. If that's what other shooters want to do instead of interacting with other people, fine, that's their choice. It's my choice not to bother wasting my time going somewhere just to be ignored because the toys are far more interesting than I am. I got other things I can spend that money on. And as for scorekeepers not being able to shoot, I did the scores for a club for a year and never had that problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Uh Oh! I feel a rant coming on. IMO, it all boils down to "testing," says Allie, the former software tester. All of the things Grizz mentions must be part of the testing process. Verification of results at the match is also essential. Just because you put it in the phone/pc and it spit out results does not make them correct. At the most basic level is input and output. You test with known input data (test or actual scoresheets) and you have documented expected results. I recommend having the on-site scorekeepers (in this case, data entry operators) always have a paper score sheet with a manually added total. Even if the total is incorrect, it provides a checkpoint. When you have a discrepancy between that total and output, you check to see if the data was entered correctly, the written total (expected result) was correct, or the program has a bug. If the software was well tested, this will go quickly and you will see the manual total or entry amount was incorrect. The first time I tested a certain, well-known, CAS software to figure out how it worked before I scored an annual match. I found a variety of errors. Some were input data. That can be checked by reviewing the paper input copies with the output. To be safe and fair, all score sheets should be verified against the output scores. If you refuse to do that, you are kidding yourself about how accurate input is. By the time the software has been released for use, testing should have led to correction of any programming bugs. Transpositions are the most common input error in our sport. Misplaced decimals are also a possibility. About crashes, there are ways of dealing with that too. First, the main server or receiver must have a built in back-up that functions after each reception of data. This backup is best done to it and a peripheral device. Crashes of the input device are not as critical if the preceding is handled properly. The software will provide a fatal error if the output device (receiver) crashes. The input operator also should receive notice that the send was received. If this is not done or the input device crashes, you still have the paper copy and can reenter. I know you'd love this to be more automated; however, my experience is that as long as you have people entering data or an unknown extent of testing of the program, there is room for error. Hard copies are critical unless you scan them and do backups as I mentioned. Sincerely, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Believe many of those fears actually have come true. The calculator was going to ruin all math education. The cell phone actually IS ruining ALL education. The home computer was a waste of money. The first one was fine. Having to buy a new one every two years because it got dropped or runs out of memory, disk, battery or blows chips IS a waste of money. The video game is a waste of time. Boy, if there ever was a fear that has been realized, that is the one! The train will scare cows and ruin their milk. Well, paving for roads and parking for cars may well kill off all the grass. Then, no milk. No one should have to talk more than 5 minutes on the phone. No one should be ALLOWED to talk more than five minutes on the phone. That would make a grand campaign plank. The internet will end the written word... and paper. No, but the internet is certainly about to end the well-written and civil word. ETC. ETC. ETC...... you'd really quit shooting because scoring is electronic? :lol: Text me a message... I surely WOULD quit shooting if the shooting is only electronic (a video game). And I'm a guy who programs the darn things for a living, too. Good luck, and get your butt up off that couch and do something! (turning into my old man, don't you know?) GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolina Cowboy Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Yes does both rank and time and also will run on ipod touches so easy enough to get. Painted Filly Thanks PF, right now the Lady that does it has to shoot, then walk by all the posses and get the score sheets for the stage they are shooting, go to the clubhouse(not far, but far enough to do 4 times, we shoot 5 stages at our monthlies, but we take last sheet to her) then she enters the scores AFTER EACH STAGE so we can have the totals as soon as the match is over and hand out awards(poker chips) as soon as possible so people can head home after shooting, this seems like a way to make her life a lot easier(and save her some walking as well) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 GJ.... see this is what happens when you hate the music, don't understand the hair, disapprove of the tattoos, and think the lifestyles are signs of the end of times.... YOU GOT OLD! You can't fly drones in Afghanistan (or over Detroit) if you can't run a video game. We game with things before we turn them into tools....etc. And, FYI... I swam a 3k before breakfast....watch out Michael Phelps. (Just kidding...my fly now looks like ORCA drowning instead of Flipper chuckling.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 To err is human; but to really screw up requires a computer. As one who has spent hours after a match inputing scores, double checking and still finding an error, the ACES programming is wonderful. Is it perfect, no margin for error? Why no. But that doesn't make it any more or less accurate. But it is one heck of a lot faster. And THAT is a check mark in the positive column, manual systems will NEVER get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 The train will scare cows and ruin their milk. Those trains were evil, evil I tell you. My grandma lived near the tracks. When that long Cannonball Express blew by in the afternoon, it had the hens laying the same egg three times! If I lyin', I'm dyin'. (wheeze) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painted Filly Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Carolina cowboy, Yes this is much easier. I scored a shoot a couple weeks ago and by the time the last person is done the scores were as well now this one happened to be just 1 posse so did not have to sync the devices but it was fast and everyone was happy. As the score keeper and shooter it was awesome. I also post the scores and do the web site so not to have the go home and type in 4 or 5 posses was great. I can not wait to use it at our match next month. So for our shoot we are using it. Everyone else can make their own choice but I think will be the way to go. Painted Filly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Kajun Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Brother King, Regarding backups....do some of the devices used for the ACES program allow the use of a memory card? Anything Apple doesn't but I don't know about the Androids or other platforms. If the input device had a memory card the ACES program could be written so that the data is written to the devices internal memory as well as the memory card. That way if the device crashes you can pull the memory card out of it and put it in another device of the same kind and recover the data. Just a thought. Couyon Acadien' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolina Cowboy Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Carolina cowboy, Yes this is much easier. I scored a shoot a couple weeks ago and by the time the last person is done the scores were as well now this one happened to be just 1 posse so did not have to sync the devices but it was fast and everyone was happy. As the score keeper and shooter it was awesome. I also post the scores and do the web site so not to have the go home and type in 4 or 5 posses was great. I can not wait to use it at our match next month. So for our shoot we are using it. Everyone else can make their own choice but I think will be the way to go. Painted Filly Thanks Painted Filly We are going to look into it, we have a couple members that have I pads now, and most shoots two posses are it, if we are lucky we might have three but it does seem like a good way to do things and having the scores quickly is always a big hit......so let me know how it goes at your shoot...sounds like another way to spend more time shooting and socilizing and less time doing data input..win win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calico Mary Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 my grandfather was opposed to the technology of his time, too. He made my father and 13 kids use the outhouse until he was too ill and my grandmother used her coffee can money to have a toilet installed in the house. He was too thick headed to listen and thought the sewage would be in the house. "Why they all want to live in their own S**t?" The calculator was going to ruin all math education. The home computer was a waste of money. The video game is a waste of time. The train will scare cows and ruin their milk. No one should have to talk more than 5 minutes on the phone. The internet will end the written word... and paper. ETC. ETC. ETC...... you'd really quit shooting because scoring is electronic? :lol: Text me a message... I'm not quite sure you got my point, or then again maybe you did. I don't think getting indoor plumbing affected how polite or rude most of society was to each other. Cell phones and other electronic devices have. I can't begin to tell you how many times I've tried having a conversation with someone only to have them stop talking to me because they got a call, or a text, or they had to stop and update their facebook status or something. You've done it to me yourself Brother King, and I'm not crazy enough to think for one minute that it's ever bothered you in the slightest. And although I'm crazy enough to like you anyway I'm not crazy enough to think for one minute you (or anyone else who's done it) cares how bad its hurt my feelings when you do. Even people I call my closest friends don't give a rat's behind how rude they are and how badly it hurts my feelings to be treated that way. And I seroiusly doubt I'm the only person left on the planet who thinks so. The more electronic devices intrude on this game, the more the social aspect of it WILL suffer. For those that actually can shoot worth a darn that may be no big deal. For those of us that can't shoot very good, the socializing is what we are there for. Add in cell phones and Ipads and the like, socializing WILL get pushed aside even more so than it does now, leaving some of us with no real reason to waste our time or money..... Sorry if you can't see my point, but hey, I kinda like going to shoots to talk to PEOPLE, not a TOY.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Uh oh!!!!! :blink: :blink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Okay TechHeads, I downloaded the A.C.E.S app to my Droid. When I get time, I'll play around with it and see if it is something I want to mess with. I still have a bunch of folks from the Netherlands at the house. They leave tomorrow -- the old fish and family drill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Ringer Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Android tablets can cost as little as $50 each if you hunt. And yes, the worst case scenario I can think of is losing most of a stage because a tablet dies before you sync it with one of the others. This does not have to be a problem either. Just have your posse scorekeeper write the score on the paper scoresheet AND tap it into the tablet. This only takes a few extra seconds to do both and have a paper backup for emergencies. If, once in a while, you have a complete technology failure the scores can still be sorted out from the paper and posted later. This sill saves the scorekeeper from spending the whole match reentering scores into the software and trying to double check everything. The poor scorekeepers barely get to shoot. They don't get to spend time with their friends. It's a brutal job that pays nothing. If we just let the bulk of the scoring entry happen during the shoot in the posse it will be a godsend. I know what the scorekeepers go through and it's WAY past time to get them back out on the range with everyone else. +1.....it's the future and the future is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I'm not quite sure you got my point, or then again maybe you did. I don't think getting indoor plumbing affected how polite or rude most of society was to each other. The more electronic devices intrude on this game, the more the social aspect of it Buick, is this you? Don't make me come out there...I'll have to program the GPS or NavSystem... fire up the 4G and text while driving... using voice to text of course. Shame on me for texting while talking! Dang kids made me do it... or maybe it was my mother. That woman has butterfly texting fingers from 80 years of classical piano. No excuse! Bad smartphone manners will get you thrown off the range. HEY! Maybe we could have a penalty like we do on the golf course. If the phone rings it's a stroke. If you answer it then it's two. Or one "P" for bad phone. At least my new one is period correct....it plays Magnificent 7 theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Who ever gets Noz at CaC on their posse also gets Miss Lorrie. She know how to use the system, she can keep paper scores at the same time and does not shoot. No she doesn't buy me guns or own a liquor store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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