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Misses Cause Procedure - Rule Changed?


Marauder SASS #13056

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We had a discussion (email) with a TG.

Has SASS has once again reversed their position on P's and misses?

 

 

 

Well, what would be the worst case scenario of a shooter hitting inappropriate targets with the firearm they are shooting?

The worst case scenario is if a shooter has a complete brain lapse. For instance, the stage scenario dictates you are to shoot your rifle first at the rifle targets. The shooter picks up his rifle at the beep of the timer, moves to the position they are supposed to shoot their pistols from and uses the rifle to engage the pistol targets with ten rifle rounds. In that case, the shooter would receive misses for every rifle round fired at the pistol targets plus a 10 second procedural penalty for engaging the stage in a manner not designated in the stage instructions. Consequently, the shooter would be awarded a total of 60 seconds in misses and the procedural penalty for their error.

Well, that could never happen, could it? Yes it can, and it has happened. In fact, it happened so often that at the SASS Convention in 2008, the Territorial Governors voted to approve a proposal to add the procedural penalty in such an instance. At the Southeastern Regional in 2009, a Territorial Governor who voted to approve that addition to the rules was the first one to be awarded 10 misses and a procedural penalty for doing the same thing I outlined as the worst case scenario, but he wasn't the last. There were two more shooters who did the same thing on the same stage at that match.

 

If the shooter shot from the wrong location, that would be a P of course.

 

But if it is only for shooting the wrong targets, would it still be P plus the misses?

 

I still do not like a brain fade causing a penalty significantly more than a Spirit of the Game penalty, but that is the current rules.

 

I would hate to once again return to double jeopardy by adding a P in addition...

 

So, Palewolf??

 

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We had a discussion (email) with a TG.

Has SASS has once again reversed their position on P's and misses?

 

 

 

 

 

If the shooter shot from the wrong location, that would be a P of course.

 

But if it is only for shooting the wrong targets, would it still be P plus the misses?

 

I still do not like a brain fade causing a penalty significantly more than a Spirit of the Game penalty, but that is the current rules.

 

I would hate to once again return to double jeopardy by adding a P in addition...

 

So, Palewolf??

 

[/size]

 

Interesting in this case one has nothing to do with the other, the P was given for shooting the stage wrong ie: position, the misses were awarded for shooting the wrong targets with the wrong gun, in this case it would be a nasty penalty, but a good RO would have prevented this. But I await the ruling from PWB.

 

KK

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We had a discussion (email) with a TG.

Has SASS has once again reversed their position on P's and misses?

NO

 

If the shooter shot from the wrong location, that would be a P of course.

Correct

 

But if it is only for shooting the wrong targets, would it still be P plus the misses?

NO

 

I still do not like a brain fade causing a penalty significantly more than a Spirit of the Game penalty, but that is the current rules.

 

I would hate to once again return to double jeopardy by adding a P in addition...

 

So, Palewolf??

 

 

 

5-SECOND PENALTIES

 Each target hit with an incorrect firearm, either intentionally or by mistake.

RO1 p.23

 

It is also good to understand “A MISS CANNOT CAUSE A PROCEDURAL.”
RO1 p.24

 

Shooting from the wrong position/location is a "stand alone" PROCEDURAL.

Hitting the wrong type target(s) is 5-seconds each

(scored the same as misses whether one wants to call them "misses" or not)

Those are separate penalties.

This is NOT a "Double Jeopardy" situation.

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Dang PWB, GREAT minds DO think alike..... ;)

 

 

..........Widder

\

Widder....you owe me money for a new monitor...I spewed coffee on mine this morning after reading that :)

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Hmmmm, you can have the shooting position the same for pistol and rifle. If the shooter engages the rifle targets with pistols and then shoots the pistol targets with rifle you get 20 misses. This is possible with brain fade or a contestant's misunderstanding of the sequence, particularly if the targets are close together. It happens much faster than a TO can react and stopping the contestant will easily absorb 20 to 30 seconds. Spoken from experience. :blush:

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Thanks, Palewolf!

 

Glad to hear it.

 

For those that don't remember, prior to 2001 or 2002, a procedure was a brain fade and a miss on any target was a miss.

Hitting the wrong target was usually a procedure. If it appeared to be intentionally unfair, the SOG could be given in addition. The main downside was that if you missed a ttarget and hit another, the "miss" was scored as a P. So in rare cases a miss resulted in a P. We all knew that and lived with it.

 

In 2001 or so some folks were concerned that if they set up relatively difficult rifle targets that a shooter would shoot the pistol targets with the rifle and only be penalized 10 seconds - if they hit them all. So they wanted something worse (partly because folks are reluctant to give out SOG penalties). In so doing, the definition of a miss and a procedure became interrelated. And you could now get up to 60 seconds penalty for a brain fade.

 

So for a year or so you could get both a P as well as misses for hitting the incorrect targets. Then it was seen as double jeopardy and the P was dropped and only misses were awarded. And the miss flow chart was added, plus a page or two more of rules. And we continue to have a lot more confusion in rulings. I, as is obvious, wish we would not have started down that path.

 

But the updates are helpful in dealing with confusing situation.

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Greetins Marauder.

 

I was thinkin of ONE exception and that would be if the shooter is shooting Josie Wales category and using designated pistols to shoot the rifle targets.

 

 

..........Widder

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(Edited to add which post I was alluding to).

Hmmmm, you can have the shooting position the same for pistol and rifle. If the shooter engages the rifle targets with pistols and then shoots the pistol targets with rifle you get 20 misses. This is possible with brain fade or a contestant's misunderstanding of the sequence, particularly if the targets are close together. It happens much faster than a TO can react and stopping the contestant will easily absorb 20 to 30 seconds. Spoken from experience. :blush:

Who's the TO, "Asleep at the Wheel"?

 

I KNOW the buzzer disconnects the thinkin' parts of our brains from proceesed memory, but it's Wednesday morning, and the last buzzer was on Sunday. If you're still hearing them, it's time for a reality check!

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(Edited to add which post I was alluding to).

Who's the TO, "Asleep at the Wheel"?

 

I KNOW the buzzer disconnects the thinkin' parts of our brains from proceesed memory, but it's Wednesday morning, and the last buzzer was on Sunday. If you're still hearing them, it's time for a reality check!

 

 

Griff I hear you and I love you ..but..I just had this happen to me as an RO..common start target then three rifle targets as you please then same commom start target for pistol and three targets in the opposite direction for pistol...shooter is 15 second capable...shooter shoots rifle...I'm watching rifle for squibs and such..I'm not spotter..I,m the RO..shooter pulls pistol and shoots common target... I'm looking to his right waiting for pistols and shooter goes back to his left and in less than a second has shot two rifles and completes pistols on rifle targets...fiquring I would hurt him more by stopping it since I thought it was just a P....Marauder is right...the 10 miss thing is overregulating what should be a SOG penalty if done for competitive advantage..rifle targets in this case where farther away so not the case..We are shooting "no Alibi"..not my or any RO job to guide shooter..particually a super fast one...RO's got serious safety issues to deal with and RO's should not be expected to even know what targets are being shot whats more be able to do anything about it in less than a second..he hit everything he shot at..didn't cheat..I gave him the P..shooters responsiblity to shoot the stage as described..bad form to dump on the RO when technically he shouldn't even know whether he hit it or not.. If I can help someone who gets off I will but I as an RO have a lot going in 13-15 second stages...its easy to claim "Asleep At he Wheel" till you live it.

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Griff I hear you and I love you ..but..I just had this happen to me as an RO..common start target then three rifle targets as you please then same commom start target for pistol and three targets in the opposite direction for pistol...shooter is 15 second capable...shooter shoots rifle...I'm watching rifle for squibs and such..I'm not spotter..I,m the RO..shooter pulls pistol and shoots common target... I'm looking to his right waiting for pistols and shooter goes back to his left and in less than a second has shot two rifles and completes pistols on rifle targets...fiquring I would hurt him more by stopping it since I thought it was just a P....Marauder is right...the 10 miss thing is overregulating what should be a SOG penalty if done for competitive advantage..rifle targets in this case where farther away so not the case..We are shooting "no Alibi"..not my or any RO job to guide shooter..particually a super fast one...RO's got serious safety issues to deal with and RO's should not be expected to even know what targets are being shot whats more be able to do anything about it in less than a second..he hit everything he shot at..didn't cheat..I gave him the P..shooters responsiblity to shoot the stage as described..bad form to dump on the RO when technically he shouldn't even know whether he hit it or not.. If I can help someone who gets off I will but I as an RO have a lot going in 13-15 second stages...its easy to claim "Asleep At he Wheel" till you live it.

 

Dash,

I understand the fact that really fast guys are tough to keep up with....I shoot with a whole pile of them down here in Florida.......BUT......99 times out of a hundred I can tell which target a shooter is engaging by positioning myself to be able to see the gun and part of the barrel. I don't watch targets but I am aware of them. If you were watching the gun you would have seen that it was not moving in the correct direction. RO'ing ain't easy and if you aren't watching the gun it's going to be a lot harder to help the shooter. At the very least by keeping quiet you did not ADD to the shooters self induced problems. We all do the best we can when the timer is in our hands. The only way to improve is to keep doing it....but don't try to claim it's not doable when there are those that do it.

 

fyi......I'm pretty sure Griff has "lived it" considering he has played this game MUCH longer than most here.

 

Stan

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Dash,

Im pretty sure the shooter got off light on this stage.

Wasnt he given a penalty with no misses?

I was a spotter on this one, not the timer operator and it happened fast.

Being a new RO and a relatively new shooter with a year behind me now and not having been to many big matches like this one I was just not familiar enough with the rules to call a procedural with 9 misses also.

Now I know.

Still trying to get into my head what to do as the timer operator when this one happens with a fast shooter.

Maybe a one word correction to the shooter like "RIFLE"?

Trying to give the shooter a two word correction like "RIFLE TARGETS" would have been too slow....he was haulin!

I'm heading to Florida for a speed lesson, wanna go?

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Dash,

Im pretty sure the shooter got off light on this stage.

Wasnt he given a penalty with no misses?

I was a spotter on this one, not the timer operator and it happened fast.

Being a new RO and a relatively new shooter with a year behind me now and not having been to many big matches like this one I was just not familiar enough with the rules to call a procedural with 9 misses also.

Now I know.

Still trying to get into my head what to do as the timer operator when this one happens with a fast shooter.

Maybe a one word correction to the shooter like "RIFLE"?

Trying to give the shooter a two word correction like "RIFLE TARGETS" would have been too slow....he was haulin!

I'm heading to Florida for a speed lesson, wanna go?

Not sure if that was a dig or not....regardless.....come on down. The door is always open......ask around up there about the FL boys.....I'm sure Fast Eddie and Duncan will back up my statement about shooting with some fast guys down here. You can't always save them but it's not impossible either.

 

 

Stan

 

 

 

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Thanks, Palewolf!

 

Glad to hear it.

 

For those that don't remember, prior to 2001 or 2002, a procedure was a brain fade and a miss on any target was a miss.

Hitting the wrong target was usually a procedure. If it appeared to be intentionally unfair, the SOG could be given in addition. The main downside was that if you missed a ttarget and hit another, the "miss" was scored as a P. So in rare cases a miss resulted in a P. We all knew that and lived with it.

 

In 2001 or so some folks were concerned that if they set up relatively difficult rifle targets that a shooter would shoot the pistol targets with the rifle and only be penalized 10 seconds - if they hit them all. So they wanted something worse (partly because folks are reluctant to give out SOG penalties). In so doing, the definition of a miss and a procedure became interrelated. And you could now get up to 60 seconds penalty for a brain fade.

 

So for a year or so you could get both a P as well as misses for hitting the incorrect targets. Then it was seen as double jeopardy and the P was dropped and only misses were awarded. And the miss flow chart was added, plus a page or two more of rules. And we continue to have a lot more confusion in rulings. I, as is obvious, wish we would not have started down that path.

 

But the updates are helpful in dealing with confusing situation.

 

Marauder we all know that ye are the most helpful of pards but I am sorry, I tried several times to comprehend this post but my eyes just glazed over each time...

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Stan,

No dig intended. I saw you guys from Florida shoot for the first time this year at the Georgia State Match when I was running around trying to take the "official" possee pictures and was nothing short of amazed at y'all's skill levels. This was my first big match and now I got the fever!

I just gotta ask...you ever done any modeling?

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Stan,

No dig intended. I saw you guys from Florida shoot for the first time this year at the Georgia State Match when I was running around trying to take the "official" possee pictures and was nothing short of amazed at y'all's skill levels. This was my first big match and now I got the fever!

I just gotta ask...you ever done any modeling?

Pard I really needed that chuckle! Come down sometime! You have plenty of fast guys up there as well.

 

(non modeler) Stan

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Well y'all pretty much beat this to death. As a relative new shooter, this happened to me at the 2nd US Open. I was in the right position with the right gun (so no P), but was awarded 10 misses for hitting the pistol targets with the rifle. A 50 second penalty for something that was not unsafe seemed excessive to me. I can understand an SOG if it was clearly trying to gain an advantage ... but as a senior moment it made me lose interest in shooting the rest of the match.

 

I still worked on the posse ... but withdrew from the last couple stages. With more experience under my belt and running the timer (even with fast shooters) I think I could have stopped "myself" ... hmmm ... after 2 or 3 shots which would have cut that 50 seconds down considerably. There is no recovery in a 10-stage match from 10 misses on 1 stage.

 

Some of our stages a trending toward very close rifle targets (I don't mind that) and if they are close to the pistol, it is easy to get confused for some of us that aint real bright to begin with.

 

Just my 1-cent ... I think a "P" would be sufficient when done by accident.

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If the rule were changed to allow only a P in that situation, you would then re-introduce subjective arguments as to whether it was a "competitive advantage" or not. Target distance is not the only factor. Movement saved would be also as would target size, weather and position of the sun. It is much better for everyone to treat it the way it is now and make all those shots misses. Since they were not the correct type target, they don't exist.

 

It's really rough to get 10 misses, but it is far better than having the gallery erupt into a cacophony of "P!", "competitive advantage! SOG!" and "Are you accusing that pard of cheating? No way! NO SOG!" and no matter what decision is made having 2/3 of the posse unhappy with the call.

 

I will freely admit though, along with the creation of the rule about "A miss can not cause a P" there are some devilishly strange situations where shooter intent should not be determined even though it seems at first glance to be an obvious P. It simply takes some time and training for spotters to get used to calling only what actually happened, not what the shooter obviously intended to do.

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The definition of a MISS and the MISS FLOW CHART (REF RO1 pp.23-24 & 27) are fairly clear regarding the appropriate penalties for failure to hit the correct target type.

Engaging the WRONG type targets so quickly that no correction is possible is on the SHOOTER.

Maybe painting a "P" on the pistol targets and an "R" on the rifle targets would be helpful on those stages where it is not obvious which are which.

 

PENALTY OVERVIEW

5-SECOND PENALTIES

• Rifle, revolver, and shotgun targets must be engaged with the appropriate type of firearm.

A “miss” is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type firearm.

...

• Each missed target.

• Each unfired round.

Each target hit with an incorrect firearm, either intentionally or by mistake.

 

Did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammo?
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Stan,

I just gotta ask...you ever done any modeling?

 

Dang.......Ima gonna smile at that one allllllllllll day long.:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Hank I can tell you when James(Stan) West, you had to be there, and some of the Fl boys get going you're along for the ride. You might have time to think "Rifle" by the time you say it, its too late

 

Wyatt

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I can't wait to go along for that "ride". I was invited by Confederate Colt to come shoot with em down in Florida at some big match in January? Not fer sure what it is but Fast Eddie said I need to go so reckon I'll be there.

Confederate Colt and I became friends couple weeks back at the black powder match at South River in Georgia and reunited once again in Sparta Illinois at the US Open when we were on the same possee. Said he'd help show me the "ropes"

Im hoping that dont mean a hanginin but ya never know.........

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I can't wait to go along for that "ride". I was invited by Confederate Colt to come shoot with em down in Florida at some big match in January? Not fer sure what it is but Fast Eddie said I need to go so reckon I'll be there.

Confederate Colt and I became friends couple weeks back at the black powder match at South River in Georgia and reunited once again in Sparta Illinois at the US Open when we were on the same possee. Said he'd help show me the "ropes"

Im hoping that dont mean a hanginin but ya never know.........

 

That would be the Siege at St. Augustine which is the Florida State Championship. Should be a good match......Colt's a damn fine pard so I doubt it will be the wrong end of the rope.....LOL.....Hope to see you done here.

 

http://www.siegeatstaugustine.com/

 

 

Stan

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