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Madd Mike #8595

SASS / CAS

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Apparently the Outdoor Channel, which I don't get, had a segment on EOT last Wednesday.

 

 

Yeah... it's too bad that they can't air CAS on a channel that more folks get.

 

SASS presented a program to 4000 BSA who attended a Jamboree in northern NM. It was a introduction type program to show them about the game. It was very well received, and some of the adult folks were given the RO I course so that they would better understand the game. It is really easy to get young people interested in CAS... just give them some good safety instructions, and put them on the line. They will soak it up like a sponge and love it. The problem is that they can not follow up on it without their parents "Buying" into the game. Most other games require some piece of equipment, a ball, or a skateboard or something that is within easy reach for them... also, most things don't require direct involvement from the parents. No doubt that direct involvement would be some of the best time that a parent could spend with the youth. Convincing the parents of that fact is the real goal.

 

Snakebite

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I'm a newcomer, went to watch first matches in June/July, bought revolvers and borrowed shotgun and rifle and participated in first match in August, got my shotgun in a couple of weeks ago and have rifle ordered. Will borrow rifle next week at match. Everybosy in CAS has been very accomodating on loaning equipment, but its a little intimidating to ask. Getting into the sport is expensive, but not as expensive as buying a boat, or a Harley, or golf clubs for that maatter. (I have over 3K in my golf bag, still hit a 9 iron, a 3 iron and a garden hoe all the same distance!!!) When I first started in CAS, I thought dressing cowboy was a little hokey, but i'm kind of getting into it now. May take a while to get all my clothing together, but I'm already shopping for more clothing items.

 

A few suggestions I would make for all clubs to consider: Let the local paper know what you are doing. Especially small town weeklies. They love any story they can put in the paper showeing local folks doing things. If there is a charity or kids involved, all the better. If the club were to put together a decent set of loaner guns that are avaialble for newcomers to use, instead of having to borrow a fellow shooters "personal" equipment, I think that would help too. I bet most clubs could put together a pretty decent outfit with equipment that members own but dont use. Include free ammo for 1st timers. When guests are present, try to get them involved, if they dont want to shoot in a match, at least set them up and let them bang away a few rounds. Dont make them wait until the whole match is over. Squeeze them in at the end of a stage. Get them to pick up brass. Get them involved. At least one member of every club should be delegated to taking care of visitors.

 

I can't wait until next Saturday!

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Mike

You put forth the question.....how do we promote......new shooter........next 30 years. I am also in business and there is a phrase we use " pricing ourselves out of the market"

I did not join this thread to bitch about money, my point is we need to find a few fresh ideas to make this more inviting while they build their gear. And I agree with you on the overall category growth

 

I think that for the most part SASS shooting is a bargain compared to boating, jeeping, racing etc, if we compare to bowling or going out to a movie, then that is far different.

 

Local shooting fees I think are in line, shooting gear / equipment is what it is, SASS can not do anything about that.

 

Yes you are right, the poor can’t get into this.

 

I really think that CAS has peaked, which is why each and every one of that cares, need to do whatever we can to continue to promote the sport.

 

Keep the ideas coming in,,,,,,,,

Thanks

Madd Mike

 

bargan clothes can be found at 2nd hand stores

bargan equipment is darn hard to find

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The folks that wanted very few gun mods lost that discussion several years ago by a very large vote, something like 80 percent.

 

Yep, Isn't strict period correctness the NCOWS model? How is that working out by comparison? This is the 21st century after all. Can't escape reality completely.

I certainly appreciate and enjoy the history and the 19th century ways but I am very happy with the SASS model of allowing those who enjoy being period correct can do so and those that like to focus more on the shooting competition more than costuming can do that too.

I prefer simply wearing jeans, shirt, hat, and boots and will go that route at the majority of the matches I attend....local monthlies. But I am perfectly fine with dressing within the SASS rules at the few larger matches I am able to attend and agree that it does add a positive element to the game than just shooting old looking guns fast. As a competitive racer type, a good part of the fun takes place in the shop working on the hardware.....in a T-Shirt, shorts, and tennies. ;)

 

I personally feel that Bart Solo has the right idea.....support the local level as the priority and the rest will follow and likely grow on its own. Without the local level support, the entire sport is doomed and will shrink to nothing. My experience has shown me that this applies to other activities such as racing.

 

I most certainly DO NOT agree with the banning of prior event winners from competing or winning the following year, etc. It isn't their fault you can't beat them. Work hard to better your game or loose...over and over. There is more to this game than winning for the vast majority. Do yourself a favor and figure out what that is or work very hard to become the best like the best normally do. That "Were all Winners" mentality with regards to the competition side of the game doesn't do anything good for anybody.

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One more thing to consider about growth... when attracting new people to the sports, you may need a program to pull from other shooting activities. That would be a easier then bringing in people new to shooting.

 

So, if there was a campaign to attract new people, it is best to be prepared for those who have little or no experience with firearms. John Q. Public has lots of experience showing up at past time and sport events with no equipment and no skill. Golf, bowling, even shooting. Just ask gun shop owners how many guns they sell to people new to guns. I see it every time I walk into my favorite gun shop.

 

Be ready* to handle it, rather than turn people away.

 

One more thought, when people outside the sport tell us the number one reason is cost, we can't ignore that fact. We don't brush off our hands and say "oh well". We put serious thought on how to remove the barrier to get many more people easily in (and out if they decide it not right for them) to the game.

 

Big marketing hint... find out what the top 5 barriers are and campaign to dispel or mitigate these barriers. Stress the benefits of the sport as well.

 

 

+1 "SASS is not the place to learn to handle guns" just sends potential shooters to the soccer fields or whereever.

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If the club were to put together a decent set of loaner guns that are avaialble for newcomers to use, instead of having to borrow a fellow shooters "personal" equipment, I think that would help too. I bet most clubs could put together a pretty decent outfit with equipment that members own but dont use. Include free ammo for 1st timers. When guests are present, try to get them involved, if they dont want to shoot in a match, at least set them up and let them bang away a few rounds. Dont make them wait until the whole match is over. Squeeze them in at the end of a stage. Get them to pick up brass. Get them involved. At least one member of every club should be delegated to taking care of visitors.

 

I can't wait until next Saturday!

 

Some good suggestions here. We always invite spectators to shoot a stage at the end of a match but unless you are on Stage 5 or 6, they probably aren't going to hang around that long. Letting them shoot at the end of whatever stage you happen to be on might disrupt the flow of the match, but it would give more necomers a chance to get hooked.

 

I also like the idea of loaner guns. I know that everyone bends over backwards to loan their guns to newcomers, but a lot of people do not want to feel like they are imposing. Especially when people like specific ammo shot through their guns. Borrowing guns, rigs, and ammo can seem like a bit much. Having a loaner set with ammo provided for a small rental fee (just to cover the ammo cost) might be less intimidating than trying to borrow all of the equipment. It also formalizes the concept of being able to participate without having any equipment. Most golf courses have rental clubs. Why shouldn't we?

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When I was a child, I use to dream

of riding the range with Roy and Gene.

Of pushing a herd to Abliene with Rowdy

and Mr. Favor!

 

On a mop handled horse with a rein of string

I was the fastest you'd ever seen.

Riding with my heros on the silver screen,

just dreaming of being a cowboy!

 

I remember Roy and Dale,

singing 'bout those happy trails.

I'd go to sleep content at night,

knowing the range was safe, and I'd done right!

 

But I soon grew to a world of just can't wait,

and my cowboy dreams took second place.

To fax machines and the internet.

Of cell pone calls and deadlines met.

 

But I have found a place where my dreams come true!

I can take you there if you want me too?

Where a friendly smile and a "Howdy Friend",

can bring all those memories back again.

 

 

Just dreaming of being a cowboy!

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gosh

I agree with :ph34r: phantom :ph34r: once again

 

many folks sell off one hobby, to help finace the start of another

or

they build up slowy

 

I agree to a point. I sold off all my other hobbies and still had to take time to get my gear. I still don't have top notch leather, shotgun or slicked up guns but im working on it.

 

The difference is if you listen to advice on the wire you need

Slicked up 73 +/- 1200

Slicked up rugers +/- 1200

Slicked up Browning +/- 1000? (Not sure never priced one but thats what i was told)

Leather 350-500

 

Dillion 550 or bigger ???? No clue on the price.

 

Now if you want to shoot production 3 gun

 

Glock 500

870 300 if ya dont already have one

ar 600-1000 ( entry level)

 

Mags, pouches holster 200-400

 

Trap

 

Ya probably already have a shotgun but you can pick up an ok gun for under 500

Although you can go crazy for a trap or skeet gun. My neighbors shoot a pair of guns that ran over 10,000 a piece.

 

Now ya see the difference for starting a sport your not sure youll like

 

Personally i love it and someday ill get the gear i want.

 

I really do think an entry level category would help. Ive heard of clubs that do categories for less than four guns

 

 

As for banning the winners from repeatedly winning..... yeah that will never happen. If you want to see a different winners circle then put in the time and win.

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Life of a shooting junkie:

 

USPSA 15-35

IDPA 36-45

SASS 46-70

Trap 70- R.I.P.

 

The trick is not necessarily to get the "younger" shooter, it's to get "the" shooter to skip the first two and come straight to SASS. I did the first one, tried the second, and ended up here. The reason was simple - the people I get to shoot with. If the environment is fun, folks come back. If it's too serious, or too slow, or too fast, or whatever, folks will spend their time and money somewhere else. Shooters, real shooters will always spend money, starting cost or no, if they want to play they will pay to do so.

 

I worry what the next ten years will bring to SASS, but there is nothing I can do about it exactly, so for now I pay my money and shoot. When I get tired of it, I guess I can get my nurse to wheel me out to the trap course.

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I agree to a point. I sold off all my other hobbies and still had to take time to get my gear. I still don't have top notch leather, shotgun or slicked up guns but im working on it.

 

The difference is if you listen to advice on the wire you need

Slicked up 73 +/- 1200

Slicked up rugers +/- 1200

Slicked up Browning +/- 1000? (Not sure never priced one but thats what i was told)

Leather 350-500

 

Dillion 550 or bigger ???? No clue on the price.

 

Now if you want to shoot production 3 gun

 

Glock 500

870 300 if ya dont already have one

ar 600-1000 ( entry level)

 

Mags, pouches holster 200-400

 

Trap

 

Ya probably already have a shotgun but you can pick up an ok gun for under 500

Although you can go crazy for a trap or skeet gun. My neighbors shoot a pair of guns that ran over 10,000 a piece.

 

Now ya see the difference for starting a sport your not sure youll like

 

Personally i love it and someday ill get the gear i want.

 

I really do think an entry level category would help. Ive heard of clubs that do categories for less than four guns

 

 

As for banning the winners from repeatedly winning..... yeah that will never happen. If you want to see a different winners circle then put in the time and win.

 

Not a true cost comparison between SASS, 3gun and Trap.

 

You prices the high end guns for SASS

 

You used low range cost for 3gun and Trap.

 

That is OK

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Let me start by saying that I agree with Justice Lily Kate. Kate and the Judge are doing great work promoting SASS and dressing the part.

 

Brother King came up with a great idea on promoting SASS/CAS by creating THE CLASSIC COWBOY/COWGIRL SHOOTIST AWARD PROGRAM. He thought by promoting a SASS shooting catagory based on costuming,shooting style,and John Wayne's principles, would be a good way to increase participation in our great sport. The Magnificent 7 and CLASSIC COWBOY/COWGIRL SHOOTIST AWARD PROGRAM was born. Dragon Hill Dave, Vance Montana, Needmore Gunz, T-Bone Dooley, Solicitor General, Brother King, and myself, Texas Ghost took an oath to promote CLASSIC, SASS, CAS, GOD and COUNTRY.

 

We started by selecting a cowboy and cowgirl who dressed,shot,acted,promoted,and helped others to enjoy our great sport. We gave them special,one-of-a-kind,personalized belt buckles that were awarded at a special CLASSIC COWBOY DINNER at Winter Range. We involved all of SASS in nominating the winners.

 

This year will be no different. The 2012 winners will be awarded at Winter Range 2013. Last year we had over 80 SASS members in attendance and at least 150 people who were at the outdoor restaurant who witness what SASS is all about. People were excited and asking questions about SASS!

 

Classic Cowboy/Cowgirl is probably the most expensive catagory in SASS, but I have people tell me all the time that they are working on their guns and equipment. Phantom is right. People will spent money if they are interested in something. We just have to make them interested by promoting and being a good example of SASS/CAS and the COWBOY WAY and that includes being a CLASSIC cowboy and cowgirl,and I include ALL of SASS members when I say that.

 

Others are also promoting their catagories,like the Jeti-Gunfighers. This is great! We have a catagory for everyone that really wants to shoot CAS. It's really up to YOU to promote your catagory and SASS if you want SASS to live on. I hope you do.

 

Ghost

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Not a true cost comparison between SASS, 3gun and Trap.

 

You prices the high end guns for SASS

 

You used low range cost for 3gun and Trap.

 

That is OK

 

That was kinda my point. How many times have you seen newbies blasted for having anything less than the ideal gun? If i had a different mindset i would have quit after the first post i made here on the wire. I scrimped and saved and sold off other toys just to have a beginners set. Steoger, rossi, and a miss matched pair of bargin barrel colt clones. They weren't much but they were the BEST i could afford. When i asked a few questions here i was basicly told to not waste my time shooting the junk i have. Well to be honest i was deeply offended. People talk about the cowboy way and great friendly people. one of my very first impressions of sass was completely opposite of the cowboy way.

Well anyway i shot those guns. I still have them and wont sell them . I do have a Marlin and rugers now but those starter guns are still with me. The really funny part is i shot with one of the guys who really ripped on my guns. He has well over $4000 into his setup. I still drool thinking of the guns and amazing leather. Well guess who spanked whos butt. Yep with a grand total of less than 1200 into my guns and leather.

 

All of this is a long story. So i'll my point. I think the sass vets at times forget some of the struggles younger folks go to just to get a starter setup.

 

What may cost less than what you have into one of your guns could have taken the newbie years to assemble.

 

And no i dont ski or have a motorcyce my golf set cost fifty dollars. The most valuable things i own are my sass guns, which most of you probably wouldnt use unless you absolutely didnt have a choice.

 

Im going to shut up now because im not very articulate and im probably just making things worse. I love the game and ill shoot it as long as i can find fun in it.

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That was kinda my point. How many times have you seen newbies blasted for having anything less than the ideal gun? If i had a different mindset i would have quit after the first post i made here on the wire. I scrimped and saved and sold off other toys just to have a beginners set. Steoger, rossi, and a miss matched pair of bargin barrel colt clones. They weren't much but they were the BEST i could afford. When i asked a few questions here i was basicly told to not waste my time shooting the junk i have. Well to be honest i was deeply offended. People talk about the cowboy way and great friendly people. one of my very first impressions of sass was completely opposite of the cowboy way.

Well anyway i shot those guns. I still have them and wont sell them . I do have a Marlin and rugers now but those starter guns are still with me. The really funny part is i shot with one of the guys who really ripped on my guns. He has well over $4000 into his setup. I still drool thinking of the guns and amazing leather. Well guess who spanked whos butt. Yep with a grand total of less than 1200 into my guns and leather.

 

All of this is a long story. So i'll my point. I think the sass vets at times forget some of the struggles younger folks go to just to get a starter setup.

 

What may cost less than what you have into one of your guns could have taken the newbie years to assemble.

And no i dont ski or have a motorcyce my golf set cost fifty dollars. The most valuable things i own are my sass guns, which most of you probably wouldnt use unless you absolutely didnt have a choice.

 

Im going to shut up now because im not very articulate and im probably just making things worse. I love the game and ill shoot it as long as i can find fun in it.

 

 

Well put. It is often stated that: "The Wire is not SASS, and SASS is not the Wire". However, newbies don't always know this and see the bad with the good here, without any context of the game yet.

 

Several have made the point here that if it is promoted properly and you like the game, you will find a way to spend the money to get the equipment, and I agree, but only to a point.

 

If one thinks that the economy and the relatively high cost of entering this sport is NOT a real factor for a good part of our potential membership - one's head is likely planted in the sand. (I think all here get this, but it doesn't come across sometimes).

 

By all means yes, the promotion improvements mentioned here WILL help significantly, and we DO need them. But also needed and maybe more so, are some of the suggestions to ease the cost of initial investment including local 3 gun options, beginner gun sets, 22 options, etc, etc.

 

 

Harvey

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That was kinda my point. How many times have you seen newbies blasted for having anything less than the ideal gun?

A lot of times, I am afraid. I should add that it is alot more pleasureable to shoot or use good equipment that doesn't malfunction or hicups. Kinda flustering to see ones efforts(travel money, travel time, practice cost, ect) go up in smoke when one has continues gun problems.

 

 

If i had a different mindset i would have quit after the first post i made here on the wire. I scrimped and saved and sold off other toys just to have a beginners set. Steoger, rossi, and a miss matched pair of bargin barrel colt clones. They weren't much but they were the BEST i could afford. When i asked a few questions here i was basicly told to not waste my time shooting the junk i have. Well to be honest i was deeply offended. People talk about the cowboy way and great friendly people. one of my very first impressions of sass was completely opposite of the cowboy way.

Well anyway i shot those guns. I still have them and wont sell them . I do have a Marlin and rugers now but those starter guns are still with me. The really funny part is i shot with one of the guys who really ripped on my guns. He has well over $4000 into his setup. I still drool thinking of the guns and amazing leather. Well guess who spanked whos butt.

I know, kinda fun isn't it? :)

 

Yep with a grand total of less than 1200 into my guns and leather.

 

Yep!!

 

 

All of this is a long story. So i'll my point. I think the sass vets at times forget some of the struggles younger folks go to just to get a starter setup.

I see alot of folks waste alot of money on hardware that they will never get the benifit from, other than bragging rights on how good their guns are and from whom they purchased from. That is OK too.

 

What may cost less than what you have into one of your guns could have taken the newbie years to assemble.

 

Purchasing the guns and leather is actually the more inexpensive part of this game. Some folks spend the equivalent of one 'top notch custom rifle' or a years worth of ammo for a four day match,,,, and do this several times a year. That is OK too. It does sound like you are on the borderline from an economic standpoint of doing this sport. But where there is a will, there is a way...Just depends on ones priorities on what they want to spend their limited cash income.

 

And no i dont ski or have a motorcyce my golf set cost fifty dollars. The most valuable things i own are my sass guns, which most of you probably wouldnt use unless you absolutely didnt have a choice.

 

Im going to shut up now because im not very articulate and im probably just making things worse. I love the game and ill shoot it as long as i can find fun in it.

 

You are an exception and brave by even posting on the Wire. It is a jungle here at times. 99% of the SASS members don't know or care that the Wire exist. ;)

 

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Ghost makes the point in post #116 about SASS members promoting the sport both within their category and to others outside of SASS. We members of the Magnificent 7 attend all events, awards and outside lunches, etc, often in most if not all of our gear.

 

I was sitting at a table with SIX and his lovely gal who does not shoot and was at the Resurrection in LLANO, TX, Tin Star Ranch supporting him for the weekend. The costume contest was being called and she innocently asked me,"Why didn't you enter? You're all dressed up!" To which I responded, "Well, Mamm, I would have, but I didn't wear a costume."

 

Of course, that is Texas, WY, CO, NM, AZ etc. it's no big deal to be dressed as a cowboy. I'm not really a cowboy, my rodeo cowboy friends like to tell me. Shhhh.... they aren't either- their sport still uses a timer and/or judges. But, I go to the hospital a lot less often now!

 

My point is to get out there and have fun. Let others see the smile on your face from having just spent a day or two or a week with great friends telling stories about how 'they were coming over the ridge, there were 10 of them and my '73 jammed and left 5 so I had to speed up my pistols and be smooth with that shotgun to save the day."

 

A little fantasy is good for the spirit! :P

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"If one thinks that the economy and the relatively high cost of entering this sport is NOT a real factor for a good part of our potential membership - one's head is likely planted in the sand. (I think all here get this, but it doesn't come across sometimes)."

 

Sure, to a point. Still, for a lot of people it is a choice on where they want to spend their money. When I talk about shooting and guns with the younger guys I work with (granted, they do have jobs) ,especially if I've bought any gun that costs more than 5 or 6 hundred bucks, a lot of them will comment about spending that much money on a gun. But many of them, aged 20 to 35 or so, have to have that full sized, loaded truck that is $10,000 more than what they might actually need. And it's not their first new vehicle. I realize they're not paying cash, but a lot of younger people will do whatever it takes to have that big, new, loaded vehicle, right now. They don't want to wait until they're maybe in their 40's like their parents did.

 

Of course, there are people young and old that are scrimping to get by and probably can't afford any hobby that costs any amount of money, but for a lot of people it is a choice.

 

Smokin Gator

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99% of the SASS members don't know or care that the Wire exist.

 

To paraphrase Bogart in Casablanca, "It doesn't take much to see that the problems of the Wire don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world." ;)

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Ball in the founders court not ours

 

 

Really? And if we just sit back letting them do all the work and SASS fails, where exactly does that leave us? :blink:

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We need more young shooters! The only way this will happen is a new and younger Wild Bunch

 

How will that make a difference?

that is an honest question

 

young shooters have less $$

younger shooters seem to mostly prefere inside climate controlled envirments

 

but I am open to all suggestions

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Really? And if we just sit back letting them do all the work and SASS fails, where exactly does that leave us? :blink:

 

 

It leaves each of us with a pile of guns nobody wants until someone buys the rights (IF its for sale) and restarts the organization. Or, we wander over to NCOWS, or, a splinter group starts up and gets reorganized under a new name. heck, I might get a really nice rifle for, oh, 500 bucks.

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I am not sure shooting 22s has all the costs savings people claim. Yes the ammunition is a lot cheaper, but good guns are still expensive. If you reload the ammunition cost differential is reduced. When you are done shooting 22 you are stuck with a bunch of 22 caliber cowboy guns and a very soft resale market. You haven't solved anything. You still have to go out and buy centerfire.

 

A better approach might be two have a 3 gun class for beginners. Better yet clubs might think about formally making some rigs available for beginning shooters. Some people don't have the courage to ask strangers if they can borrow guns, eventhough every SASS member I know is more than willing to lend to a new shooter.

 

The soft resale market for .22s is what makes them affordable. Even without it, many of my friends have either a Ruger Bearcar or Single 6 or a Heritage Rough Rider already as kit guns, and .22 lever guns are pretty prolific as well. The reloading argument only goes so far; .22s still cost only about as much as primers if you buy the bulk packs. I picked up a 550 Federal .22lr pack for $14.99 last week (OK, I bought 5 packs), that is <$.03 a round! This also leaves out the cost of reloading equipment.

 

SASS members do not have to convince me about the cost of buying guns, getting what you pay for, long term cost vs. short term cost, etc. etc. I am just saying the problems I encounter when I try to bring my friends (say mostly 25-35 age range) into CAS.

 

Clubs having a loaner rig would definitely help. A bigger focus on sets that can be done with 2 guns would probably be the best thing to do. Having a hobby that cost lots of money is not the problem; it is the large upfront initial cost. I can convince my friends to drop maybe a grand or a little more to start, which gets you a shotgun or rifle and a used pistol and leather. At that point let the fun get them hooked and they WILL buy the rest later.

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We need more young shooters! The only way this will happen is a new and younger Wild Bunch
REALLY? Yes, younger shooters might be in the game for a longer period... or... like a lot of younger folks, their attention span might just as quickly move to the next thing. Naw sir, as far as a "younger" WB... I figure anyone that plays this game is young at heart. Some of us are lucky enough to be young in body as well... but a youthful attitude is harder to acquire. You might try getting the KNOW the WB before you spout off such nonsense.
Ball in the founders court not ours
I've seen Wild Bunch members come and go. Every SINGLE one of them has worked their butts off for the good of the sport, yes, it's a business, but from what I know of them, 1st, foremost and always, it's a PASSION to continue to have fun doing what they love. Because come what may, THEY were going to play this game! The fact that they invite the rest of this rabble come play with them is what still astounds the hell outta me! Sittin' back on our haunches, thinkin' someone else is going to do the work is failed thinking.

 

Rant off... need to let the BP get back under control.

 

 

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We make things work. I dont shoot every month, we dont go to movies or out to eat much but to us its worth it. Reloading helps a lot. We have a family night where everybody rotates between watching my son and the single stage presses. We crank out a few hundred rounds and have supper.

I started doing this because i loved the guns. Then i talked my dad into going to a few shoots. He bought his first handgun ever, and its a colt clone. :)

My wife has now shot twice and we're working on my mother. My cousins 14yr old son is coming up in a few weeks to try it. Now my brothers boys want to try. So does my brother but not sure how that will work they just moved to an hour from billings. 13 hours away.

My son wants to shoot really bad but hes only two so its going to be a few years till sass for him.

Some of my softball buddies asked me to shoot trap with them, i agreed as long as they try sass for at least one match. They all love shooting my cowboy guns. So i tried a little test. I looked up some stage layouts. Some from the nineties with all kinds of goofy stuff and some with the up close and personal very little movement. Out of the fifteen guys asked two said they would prefer the up close, eleven said they wanted to shoot the silly stuff because it looked more entertaining. Two didnt care either way.

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There is no one size fits all. Never had been, never will be.

 

Even something that is one size fits most won't work for every club and every range.

 

I shoot regularly with two clubs.

 

The first only has two berms to play on, so we have two posses and shoot two stages on each berm. We do fun stuff and have good movement, but with sometimes 30 folks on each posse you have to keep stage design reasonable or we'd be there all day, and in the summer heat, that wouldn't be good. I honestly think that if we had more berms to play with, that we'd increase the number of folks at each match.

 

Second club now has 13 berms to play with. We do fun things as well, but like the first club, there are lots of folks who show up. With an average over 100 folks, running 5 or 6 posses thru 5 or 6 stages takes time, the more complicated the stages, the more time. In my opinion, it might be time to look at running two separate 5 stage matches to keep posse sizes down. With loads of permanent props, it would be almost impossible to have mirror image stages on different bays.

 

Each club has to decide what they want to do with the facilities they have and how to best cater to the shooters in their area.

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We make things work. I dont shoot every month, we dont go to movies or out to eat much but to us its worth it. Reloading helps a lot. We have a family night where everybody rotates between watching my son and the single stage presses. We crank out a few hundred rounds and have supper.

I started doing this because i loved the guns. Then i talked my dad into going to a few shoots. He bought his first handgun ever, and its a colt clone. :)

My wife has now shot twice and we're working on my mother. My cousins 14yr old son is coming up in a few weeks to try it. Now my brothers boys want to try. So does my brother but not sure how that will work they just moved to an hour from billings. 13 hours away.

My son wants to shoot really bad but hes only two so its going to be a few years till sass for him.

Some of my softball buddies asked me to shoot trap with them, i agreed as long as they try sass for at least one match. They all love shooting my cowboy guns. So i tried a little test. I looked up some stage layouts. Some from the nineties with all kinds of goofy stuff and some with the up close and personal very little movement. Out of the fifteen guys asked two said they would prefer the up close, eleven said they wanted to shoot the silly stuff because it looked more entertaining. Two didnt care either way.

 

 

A very pleasent read. Good Post!!; Good observations too!! ;)

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but I am open to all suggestions

 

Are you REALLY open to ALL suggestions?

 

I am very hesitant to start down this path, but, besides a few rule changes not much about this sport has really transformed over the last 15 years or so. I don't want to get into the "target size/distance/slicked up guns - bit", I am talking about REAL change in the sport and perhaps making it more challenging, safety oriented, and respected amoungst the shooting community. Changing it in a way that will attract the next generation, but add enough variety to keep the folks we have.

 

Here is an example: Stage DQ. No where that I know of in any other action shooting sport does this exist. If you break the 170 in USPSA or IDPA you are match DQ'd - that's it, have a nice day. Why do you think that is? - safety. The fact is that we water-down gun safety in our sport in order to keep folks from having their feelings hurt so we invented the "Minor" Safety and the Stage DQ. When you are talking about loaded guns is their really a "minor" safety infraction? No. By holding our shooters to the lowest common denominator we do them a disservice. Every other action shooting sport holds their competitors to a higher standard and every one seems to be able to get there, except us.

 

Here's another: Shooting on the move or allowing movement with cocked gun. Again, every other action shooting sport does this but again, not us. Not only can it be done safely, it would add a whole new dimension to our game. Those who can will, those who can't don't have to. BUT if you bring this up you get a violent reaction from the "if you don't like our game then don't shoot it" crowd. The same crowd that is content watching the game as a whole stagnate and deteriorate.

 

Last One: Power Factor. Watch the reaction of another action shooter when you tell him/her that our power factor is 60. If they don't laugh out loud, you will know what they are thinking by the way they roll their eyes. With the exception of BP, our power factor is a joke. The minimum for a minor caliber for USPSA is 125, over twice what ours is. You can make the argument that women and junior shooters can't shoot a 125 PF, and I would agree to a point, but 60? Really?

 

So, Mike, here are some suggestions. I am not picking on you, but you just happen to utter the "I am open" line. The fact is, most here and on the range are NOT open to change. If you don't believe that, just try to take away a catagory and see what you get.

 

Again, I will pay my money, shut up and shoot. My days of trying to change anything are done but I would quietly support any change that would reshape the sport to make it more attractive for the next generation, but I don't really feel like picking up the battle flag and running at the enemy lines any more.

 

Regards.

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Somewhere back a few posts, someone asked how we get younger, less financialy able folks to join our ranks. A little latitude in costuming, without abandoning the guidelines is one way of encouraging their participation. My son, Hatfield, resisted shooting cowboy for several years because he didn't like to dress up so much. When he did start joining me I told him to wear his jeans and a button up shirt, (which I loaned him) an old derby hat that we found laying around, and a pair of black motorcycle boots he'd had for years.

 

I borrowed a realy raggedy old right hand crossdraw holster rig, and let him shoot my .45 Blackhawks, one of my '97s, and my gunsmith loaned him a 20" '66 to shoot his first match. He had a good time, made a few friends, and didn't shoot again for three or four months. "Yeah, it was fun, but I'd rather have my own stuff," he explained.

 

"We'll work on that, just be patient," I replied.

 

Over the past couple of years, he has helped me with my struggling vending business, so I have paid him back with a gun here and a shirt there and he has worked off the costs of his outfit. There has been an occasion or two where he was the beneficiary of my good fortune. I got a deal on a nice race ready rifle that he now uses. I won a new Vaquero at a match last year then found a mate to it on one of the online auctions for way below retail price. He's still using that '97 which I built out of spare parts from my parts drawer for less than $100.00. Now he's waiting on delivery of his new custom holster rig from one of the top leather makers that he worked a deal with where no money changed hands, and he built his own top dollar custom hat while working in my tent.

 

So, he's shooting a Codymatic '66, two new 5 1/2 inch stainless .38 cal New Model Vaqueros, and a nice Winchester solid frame '97, all of which cost less than $1,350.00. He is wearing, (or soon will be) a primo shooting rig, nice clothes, a fine hat, and he worked a deal for a great set of boots too.

 

Yes! I helped him do all of this and there were several lucky breaks involved. He also worked hard to make this happen. Maybe one of the keys to building the youth movement in our game is to find young people who'd be interested but can't quite swing all of the expenses, and those of us who are able can find ways to lend a hand, either monitarily, or by helping them find ways to get outfitted and such.

 

One more thing I've seen is groups or clubs that promote and support the kids, (buckaroos, buckarettes, and juniors) with coaching and money for travel. The Georgia Young Guns program is impressive. They do fund drives and the like to help send their young shooters to major matches and their young state champions to EOT.

 

You don't have to be made of money to help make these things happen. You just have to be willing to put forth the effort instead of standing back and wringing your hands and saying,"What can we do? Oh, what can we do?"

 

By the way! Hatfield's son is already wanting to play, and he's only four years old!! :lol:

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Are you REALLY open to ALL suggestions?

 

I am very hesitant to start down this path, but, besides a few rule changes not much about this sport has really transformed over the last 15 years or so. I don't want to get into the "target size/distance/slicked up guns - bit", I am talking about REAL change in the sport and perhaps making it more challenging, safety oriented, and respected amoungst the shooting community. Changing it in a way that will attract the next generation, but add enough variety to keep the folks we have.

 

Here is an example: Stage DQ. No where that I know of in any other action shooting sport does this exist. If you break the 170 in USPSA or IDPA you are match DQ'd - that's it, have a nice day. Why do you think that is? - safety. The fact is that we water-down gun safety in our sport in order to keep folks from having their feelings hurt so we invented the "Minor" Safety and the Stage DQ. When you are talking about loaded guns is their really a "minor" safety infraction? No. By holding our shooters to the lowest common denominator we do them a disservice. Every other action shooting sport holds their competitors to a higher standard and every one seems to be able to get there, except us.

 

Here's another: Shooting on the move or allowing movement with cocked gun. Again, every other action shooting sport does this but again, not us. Not only can it be done safely, it would add a whole new dimension to our game. Those who can will, those who can't don't have to. BUT if you bring this up you get a violent reaction from the "if you don't like our game then don't shoot it" crowd. The same crowd that is content watching the game as a whole stagnate and deteriorate.

 

Last One: Power Factor. Watch the reaction of another action shooter when you tell him/her that our power factor is 60. If they don't laugh out loud, you will know what they are thinking by the way they roll their eyes. With the exception of BP, our power factor is a joke. The minimum for a minor caliber for USPSA is 125, over twice what ours is. You can make the argument that women and junior shooters can't shoot a 125 PF, and I would agree to a point, but 60? Really?

 

So, Mike, here are some suggestions. I am not picking on you, but you just happen to utter the "I am open" line. The fact is, most here and on the range are NOT open to change. If you don't believe that, just try to take away a catagory and see what you get.

 

Again, I will pay my money, shut up and shoot. My days of trying to change anything are done but I would quietly support any change that would reshape the sport to make it more attractive for the next generation, but I don't really feel like picking up the battle flag and running at the enemy lines any more.

 

Regards.

Very good, I'm 110% in agreement, and also the fallout that may occur. No matter how you look at it, "Action" is the middle name, but finding some, is a rarity in our game.

Good post! MT

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I let this run 4 pages just to see if anyone would answer MONEY. Apparently no one else thinks that a vacuum exists here that is aching to be filled. Look at the facts:

 

Our youth, who have the most to gain from a lifetime of skills learned from CAS must find almost any other shooting sport to apply all that practice into an income. Holy Terror comes to mind and with her is the young at any age Evil Roy and :wub: Wicked Felina.

 

They've managed to bring young HT (Randi Rogers) up right, she's thru college and off into an incredible career in shooting....other disciplines.

 

I'll bet that ER make more money from SASS than does the WB. Not so behind the scenes WF and he have parlayed the golden years of SASS into a profitable business with sponsorships, training,etc. Has anyone else? Maybe a few gun retailers, but no one on the level of ER and crew.

 

Why? Because when we're all braggin that there ain't no money in it.. guess what? Our best and our brightest and our youngest have to go find other endeavors around the shooting sports to make a living. Who loses? We do... we lose in the respect others have for CAS and the publicity that only money and sponsorship can bring.

 

Now before you all start with a "money is the root of all evil" rant I'd advise that you check your address... this is the USA. :FlagAm: $ hasn't 'ruined' any other sport, but other sports with 1/2 or even 1/8 of the participants enjoy far more visiblity than does CAS/SASS. Every other sport has a pro and amateur ranking as well... play however you like.

 

The ideas that Dang It Dan put up are ideas that when someone comes in to close the vacuum that SASS has created will put CAS over the top. I doubt that it will be SASS.

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Are you REALLY open to ALL suggestions?

 

Here's another: Shooting on the move or allowing movement with cocked gun. Again, every other action shooting sport does this but again, not us. Not only can it be done safely, it would add a whole new dimension to our game. Those who can will, those who can't don't have to. BUT if you bring this up you get a violent reaction from the "if you don't like our game then don't shoot it" crowd. The same crowd that is content watching the game as a whole stagnate and deteriorate.

 

Last One: Power Factor. Watch the reaction of another action shooter when you tell him/her that our power factor is 60. If they don't laugh out loud, you will know what they are thinking by the way they roll their eyes. With the exception of BP, our power factor is a joke. The minimum for a minor caliber for USPSA is 125, over twice what ours is. You can make the argument that women and junior shooters can't shoot a 125 PF, and I would agree to a point, but 60? Really?

 

So, Mike, here are some suggestions.

 

Regards.

 

I believe that western three gun offers a lot, and I dont see it growing,

I agree, some of those changes would make sass more fun, SASS/CAS has become boring at our local level, the cowboy and action is gone, just shoot really fast is in voge, however I dont really think those good suggestions would help the next gen, or they would already be in W3G

 

same $$ start up fees, less clothes requirments perhaps

 

I think that SASS/CAS has peaked, that is why everyone (WB, clubs and members) must work harder to keep some life going.

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...less clothes requirments perhaps...

Hi Mike,

 

No, no, no.... :(

 

So sorry to pick on one part of your message...

 

It is just that the minimum requirements are so basic that I did not have to buy anything but a hat. I wore jeans, a long sleeve shirt, and cowboy boots to many of the matches I attended during my first year. If I weren't a "clothes horse" and just "chomping at the bit" :rolleyes: to get in costume, I could have got by with that for a long time.

 

This reminds me of, what I think is, a sweet story. There was a shooter at the Chabot Gun Club Cowboy matches who shot there for many years and only had one costume for monthly or annual matches. One year, he somehow (I think it was rigged :) in a nice way) won a coupon for a new costume from one of our vendors. He really seemed happy and looked great when I saw him in the new costume. The moral of the story is that what you shoot in doesn't really matter and who knows some day something could happen to enable you to get more costumes. It could be that you win something or finally have more money or just decide to get something different.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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... I did not have to buy anything but a hat.
And, as you well know, you did not HAVE to buy that! Only required in CC and B-W. Mike, I agree with Allie, the costuming requirement is so minimal, that it doesn't make sense to relax that. Next, we'll have folks showin' up in hawaiian shirts and bermuda shorts... oh, wait... saw that already... pass the SUNGLASSES, please! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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