Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Just last week a stage writer wrote a 5 target shotgun setup. My good pard Doc Noper shot the stage considerably better than I did and I ended up getting him by a full second because I grabbed my 97' from the cart and grabbed 5 shells and landed it. Doc is one of the best SxS shooters in the game today but regardless of how flawless of a run he had he could not beat a 97' in that instance (his run including the shotgun was excellent). The stage writer heard a few grumblings he told everyone to quit whinning,in fact his words were "double shooter whaaaayy". He's done five target arrays before and I can tell you the only reason he does it is to tick people off. Pretty good way to say thanks to your paying customers huh. The only way that two targets pose any advantage to a SxS is if it's the last gun. If not any advantage is lost in the clearing of the shells and the restaging/transition to next gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sun Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Ahhhhhh NEVER!!!! Your "force" is not that strong! But thanks for the offer. JEL Cypress, I can feel the SxS shootier in you, come back from the 97 side.....The Saga continues! My "force" is directly proportioned to the time of day. I tried to visualize me with a SxS........all I could see was a monkey with a football. CS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E. Law Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 That's kinda funny. Over the past few weeks you've been showing everyone that monkey/football thing with ALL of your guys! JEL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Just last week a stage writer wrote a 5 target shotgun setup. My good pard Doc Noper shot the stage considerably better than I did and I ended up getting him by a full second because I grabbed my 97' from the cart and grabbed 5 shells and landed it. Doc is one of the best SxS shooters in the game today but regardless of how flawless of a run he had he could not beat a 97' in that instance (his run including the shotgun was excellent). The stage writer heard a few grumblings he told everyone to quit whinning,in fact his words were "double shooter whaaaayy". He's done five target arrays before and I can tell you the only reason he does it is to tick people off. Pretty good way to say thanks to your paying customers huh. The only way that two targets pose any advantage to a SxS is if it's the last gun. If not any advantage is lost in the clearing of the shells and the restaging/transition to next gun. Deuce; I'm absolutely sure that same guy is doing matches at one of my clubs too! He just can't seem to stop himself even though folks are fed up with his attitude. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal TKD, Sass # 36984L Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I shoot a SXS and do in a fairly rapid manor. Personally it has never bothered me if there are 4 or 5 targets. Yes it is slower depending on the shooting order of the guns and target placement. Our stage writer has not done odd number shotgun targets. My only complaint would be that they don't write double tap shotgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Deuce; I'm absolutely sure that same guy is doing matches at one of my clubs too! He just can't seem to stop himself even though folks are fed up with his attitude. Snakebite I'm sure he's a nice guy. Maybe he just needs a break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I'm sure he's a nice guy. Maybe he just needs a break. Or he doesn't like a vanilla match. I admit that I rarely write an odd-numbered shotgun stage, but I have before, and I've never heard a single complaint. I understand IF the guy is writing them every single month. It is impossible to write a perfectly level match. Some stages are an advantage to right handers, gunfighters, 97 shooters, people good at trap, etc. I just try to even it out as best as I can. That is all anybody can ask for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I do it on occasion merely to get away from yhr 10-10-4 routine. I have only heard one person really complain. At first I thought he was kidding. Fillmore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Or he doesn't like a vanilla match. I admit that I rarely write an odd-numbered shotgun stage, but I have before, and I've never heard a single complaint. I understand IF the guy is writing them every single month. It is impossible to write a perfectly level match. Some stages are an advantage to right handers, gunfighters, 97 shooters, people good at trap, etc. I just try to even it out as best as I can. That is all anybody can ask for. Lots and lots of ways to keep a match interesting before going to odd number shot gun. To each his own but when I have to rely on odd number shotgun targets to spice up my stage design I'll pass off the duty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Lots and lots of ways to keep a match interesting before going to odd number shot gun. To each his own but when I have to rely on odd number shotgun targets to spice up my stage design I'll pass off the duty. +1 If just having odd number SG targets is all you can do to change things up. Then you are already in a bad way. Just don't get how having an different number in the round count really spices up anything. It can be done with movement, target placement, gun order; Changing the number of rounds I shoot really don't do anything for me. Can not ever remember coming home and saying. "WOW. That was great today. We shoot 5 SG on a stage, and 8 rifle on another. WOW. It really made it more fun." Now I have came home talking about the fun movement, or different sweeps and target placement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 "WOW. That was great today. We shoot 5 SG on a stage, and 8 rifle on another. WOW. It really made it more fun." Now I have came home talking about the fun movement, or different sweeps and target placement. Now don't be an old cranky pants. I shot a stage in December that was Christmas themed, and the shotgun fallers were shaped like a Christmas tree -- yep, five fallers. The rifle targets and pistol targets were arrange the same. Ya danged old Scrooge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 If ya want to have an odd number. Then put movement in between. Shoot two, move, shoot two, move, shoot one. Then ya kind of leveled it back up. AND ADD the FUN into it. Not that the shooting one at the end is adding any fun. But the movement would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Now don't be an old cranky pants. I shot a stage in December that was Christmas themed, and the shotgun fallers were shaped like a Christmas tree -- yep, five fallers. The rifle targets and pistol targets were arrange the same. Ya danged old Scrooge. Now what was really fun about that? The 5 targets. Or the fact they was a Chistmas Tree at Christmas time?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Now what was really fun about that? The 5 targets. Or the fact they was a Chistmas Tree at Christmas time?? I guess I have fun, no matter what is thrown at me. If a stage doesn't please everybody, well... I don't know of much in life that does please everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 As for 4 targets breaking even or a being a "toss up"? Unless the pairs are seperated the SxS is again at a disadvantage to the 97 shooter who can pull 4 and have a good smooth (not perfect) run. Going to the belt a second time is approx. 1.5 secs for a fast shooter, the SxS shooter has to have everything go perfect (and how often does that happen) in order to get close in makeing up for that amount of time. Just on the surface that SEEMS backwards. Wouldn't the SxS shooter have the advantage with targets closer together? Carried to the extreme, dumping all four shots on one target, the SxS shooter can just do two double taps. The split times between shots one and two then shots three and four MIGHT make up for having to go to the belt one extra time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie MacNeil, SASS #48580 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Or y'all could just shoot Classic Cowboy, then you wouldn't have to worry about whether to shoot a double or a '97... Wait a minute, on second thought, I don't need any more competition in Classic. I get my hiney kicked often enough as it is. So please disregard the above statement... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Paint me squarely in the double row camp. Yea, my times are slow... but it ain't because of my shootin', unless I want it to be. I've raced against pumps for 26 years in this game. Very few have beat me out to 16 rounds. Tho' I do have to wean myself off BP shells and clean my chambers before I start. That 16 SG run was a challenge deal, shot mano y mano, all KDs, and both of us ran it clean... but... I was done with my SG on the table, while he was loading his last shell into the pump. T'weren't really that close. Much ka-ka about nothing. I've seen more bobbles, dropsies and plain ol' fumblin' with '97s than I ever see with doubles. Most shooters (IMO) would be well served to put up their '97 and grab a double and practice... just a little bit. It is all about technique. Learn how to grab and hold two, keep the stock on your shoulder, and never remove your strong hand from the wrist of the gun. The only work I've had done to my double is to polish the chamber, and use smooth sided AAs or Blue Magic hulls. I've been accused of havin' ejectors on my double... plain ol' box stock (except those polished chambers) Stoeger Coach Gun. Frankly, the '97 or the double has no clear advantage as far as equipment is concerned... it's the technique and skill the shooter possesses. Give me a couple of days to practice... (something I haven't done in 18 years), time to load up some of my Blue Magic hulls, and I'll run my double against anyone with their '97. (Not saying they won't beat me... but hey, we'll have fun laughin' about it afterwards)! :ph34r: Oh yeah, WHINER buys the beer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E. Law Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Just on the surface that SEEMS backwards. Wouldn't the SxS shooter have the advantage with targets closer together? Carried to the extreme, dumping all four shots on one target, the SxS shooter can just do two double taps. The split times between shots one and two then shots three and four MIGHT make up for having to go to the belt one extra time. In the extreme...?? Yeah, I think the SxS would win out in that dump kind of stage. The splits would be so close because you wouldn't be aiming just slamming the trigger that you would definitely get the advantage. Maybe even if the targets were staged pretty close. However, the average line of 4 in a row (nice even seperations between targets like we normally see)The split times will be closer while the going to the belt time still stays the same. How many times have you seen the SxS shooter miss that second and fourth targets trying to keep that split times down only to miss by under or over swinging the muzzle? The split times between fast 97 and SxS shooters (on targets) is maybe only .15 maybe .2 sec. more per shot. Multiply that by 4 and you get .8 seconds. Not close to the 1.5 sec to go to the belt again. (NOTE: Before people start correcting these times with their own... don't bother! These are scientific examples. They're just educated guesses from my observations during practice with my pards) I know there are fast 97 shooters and fast SxS shooters. At any given time one can be faster than the other. That said, I think the 97, on average, has an overall edge with the way the targets are usually placed in your average matches, again that's just IMHO! I'm not complaining, I'm just stating my opinion, which ain't worth much so YMMV. Eitherway, I'm still gonna shoot. I always try to run my SxS as fast as I can. Sometimes it works out for me and I win (or finish well), Sometimes I don't. JEL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 All I'm gona add is this: Our good wire Pard, BJT, is sitting out in California having a nice smile on his face because he has created a good thread that's got all you fellers all worked up over SxS vs. 97. AND, he has proudly managed to steer the conversation away from those evil double cockers..... I tip my hat to the man out on the Left Coast. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sun Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 That's kinda funny. Over the past few weeks you've been showing everyone that monkey/football thing with ALL of your guns! JEL More like a monkey with a football AND a yoyo. CS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 How many times have you seen the SxS shooter miss that second and fourth targets trying to keep that split times down only to miss by under or over swinging the muzzle? FAR too many times........................and I was always the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E. Law Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 FAR too many times........................and I was always the shooter. Boy I resemble that remark way to closely JEL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E. Law Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 More like a monkey with a football AND a yoyo. CS I thought the YoYo was just part of the stage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sackett, SASS #22531Life Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Disclaimer: I started with a 97 (16 ga)and an LC Smith SxS. Number of rounds does not matter to me, the more the better for all shooting. The 97 was faster till it "broke". retired the LC Smith. Got out and cut my Browning BSS, retired the 97. In my humble experience the 97 does not load faster. (I can palm 4 rounds from either side) The issue is the shooter and practice if you have a Good SxS or a Good '97. I still use the ole'97 (solid frame) for WB it is fun and I got lucky at a BP Regional and won the '87 speed run with a Good, tuned '87. When we had 18 SG rounds at Bordertown some years back it was FUN and Fast and HOT, but in the end I did not see an advantage to the gun it seemed to go to the Shooter! Bottom line for me is that the SxS does not cost me anything, time wise, and I am less worried it will "break" in the middle of a string. The piece of mind is worth it every time.(IMHO) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I use a 97 now but my hands are too small to grab 4 but I can grab 3. Any target arrangement that doesn't have 3,6, or 9 targets puts me at a disadvantage. Fillmore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 I practice with both (97 & sxs) I carry both on my gun cart then apply my skills accordingly to the stage design mileage will vary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 I thought the YoYo was just part of the stage Failure to do the yo yo will earn you an SOG penalty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel "Doc" Eells Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 I fail to see a problem in search of a solution. SxS shooters will load two rounds 3x whether there are 5 or 6 targets...won't they?? I shoot a double and have for years. Prior to the double, I shot a 97. As Pale Wolf said, I am gonna load 2 rounds 3 times whether shooting 5 or 6 targets. Either way, I am making the same number of trips to the belt as the 97 shooter. No problem! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korupt Karl Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Haven't been in the sport as long as some, but when I started the majority shot the 97 and then Evil Roy switched over to the S X S and soon after a lot of people followed....saying that a S X S was somewhat simplier and that one trainwreck with the 97 and you were in trouble. For awhile a lot of shooters carried both shotguns and took the one that a stage favored. I'm still shootin the 97 but I'm playing with the double from time to time. After the Evil Roy switch the majority of stage writers went to even number targets to at least make it an even playing field for both shooters.....it's a shame that some of the early stage writers still hold onto the anti-gunfighter stages by setting up split pistols on multiple stages. (sorry, I just had to put that in) KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Ringer Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 I don't see a problemo. I like a mixture of stages. Not every stage will be friendly to every style of shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tennessee Stud, SASS# 43634 Life Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Every now and then a stage writer feels the need to have an odd number of shotgun targets. This causes double shooters some heartache as it makes them less competitive to 97 shooters. If you feel the need to have 5 shotgun knockdowns, simply require a minimum shot count of six and the stage returns to shotgun neutral. Just sayin BJT Well... the answer is to multiply the shotgun targets by pie (3.14159)... and simply divide by 2. And then.. shoot them targets accordingly.... TAH!! DAH!!... case closed. ts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Well... the answer is to multiply the shotgun targets by pie (3.14159)... and simply divide by 2. And then.. shoot them targets accordingly.... TAH!! DAH!!... case closed. ts Works for me...I LIKE pie!...the mo' the betta! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.