BJT Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Every now and then a stage writer feels the need to have an odd number of shotgun targets. This causes double shooters some heartache as it makes them less competitive to 97 shooters. If you feel the need to have 5 shotgun knockdowns, simply require a minimum shot count of six and the stage returns to shotgun neutral. Just sayin BJT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuno Massey, SASS # 66948 Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Every now and then a stage writer feels the need to have an odd number of shotgun targets. This causes double shooters some heartache as it makes them less competitive to 97 shooters. If you feel the need to have 5 shotgun knockdowns, simply require a minimum shot count of six and the stage returns to shotgun neutral. Yes, and please set them in pairs with about 18 to 24 inches between them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 You pick your guns and you take your chances..... Let's make every stage 10-10-4 . Let's make every stage either direction. Let's make every stage gunfighter friendly...say double tap the targets. Let's see how vanilla we can make everything........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I fail to see a problem in search of a solution. SxS shooters will load two rounds 3x whether there are 5 or 6 targets...won't they?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Non-issue. That same double shooter is at an advantage if the odd shotgun target is missed the first time. Fillmore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I fail to see a problem in search of a solution. SxS shooters will load two rounds 3x whether there are 5 or 6 targets...won't they?? They make up for slower reload times by shooting the second shot faster...eliminating the second shot takes away the chance to even things up with the 97. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Yes, and please set them in pairs with about 18 to 24 inches between them. six on three targets with double taps allowed would be more preferred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying W Ramrod Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Unless the '97 shooter has huge hands, they'll have to go to the belt at least twice, by that time, I'm done with my sxs and moving on. Everyone knows '97 shooters grab 4 at the start 'cause the get lost on a second grab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I like odd numbers... They let me fire both barrels at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I really don't think that idea would work. For one thing, the same guy that writes stages like that would have to be the same guy who would increase the minimum number of shots. He would be better off just doing some research and finding out just how much the practice is disliked and then simply not do it. I always grumble about it, but can manage to deal with it..... just barely. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constable Nelson #11784 Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I'm a SXS shooter.. in a nation of SXS shooters... ..and I LOVE odd numbers of shotgun targets.. Let's me really let rip because.. as I always load two (and believe ever loading just one to be a poor tactic)..I know I have an extra shot there ready to go... Don't understand why any SXS shooter would NOT like "odds". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I just enyou shooting--the more the merrier cr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I'm a SXS shooter.. in a nation of SXS shooters... ..and I LOVE odd numbers of shotgun targets.. Let's me really let rip because.. as I always load two (and believe ever loading just one to be a poor tactic)..I know I have an extra shot there ready to go... Don't understand why any SXS shooter would NOT like "odds". I guess that it wouldn't really matter..... in nation of SXS shooters... would it. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 You pick your guns and you take your chances..... Let's make every stage 10-10-4 . Let's make every stage either direction. Let's make every stage gunfighter friendly...say double tap the targets. Let's see how vanilla we can make everything........ +1. I shoot a double. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ol Number4 Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 The odd number just means me, as a SXS shooter, gets at least one "hail mary". I love em" Ol' #4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rattler Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 They make up for slower reload times by shooting the second shot faster...eliminating the second shot takes away the chance to even things up with the 97. Did anyone even read Phantoms post?? He is absolutely right!! I've been saying this,and proving it to people for years!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey Mushman Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Phantom is right (choke) and it really doesn't bother me when only a couple stages have an odd number. I did have the opportunity to shoot a 6 stage match that had an odd number on all six stages - that did annoy me just a bit. Don't need a rule against it, just a little common sense. Harvey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I don't think a 97 has an advantage over a whole match. Too many ways for the gun or operator to choke. So they fly through one stage. Just keep a loading and firing yer old reliable SXS and wait fer em to choke or the gun to lock up.... Lemme be clear, when it all works, a fast '97 run is a thing of beauty. But there are about 500 MORE ways a 97 can bite ya than a SXS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cartwheel, SASS# 57342 Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I say SxS have advantage on a 5 SG string because of loading 2 shells this gives you an extra shot with virtually no time addition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 They make up for slower reload times by shooting the second shot faster...eliminating the second shot takes away the chance to even things up with the 97. +2 Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355 Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Uh, just switch shot guns on that stage. It means more practice but you do get to buy and another gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Uh, just switch shot guns on that stage. It means more practice but you do get to buy and another gun. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E. Law Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 They make up for slower reload times by shooting the second shot faster...eliminating the second shot takes away the chance to even things up with the 97. +3 this is exactly the problem with odd numbered shots. The SXS may have faster split times but they normally don't make up nearly as much time as going to the belt for shells. I have no problem with 5 SG on a stage. Just even the match out somewhere with a stage that has 6 SG targets each 3 pairs spread apart several feet with each target pair spaced close together. Now the match is evened out. I'm a fast SxS shooter, all things considered, very fast, but when a very fast 97 shooter gets up and they're 4 SG targets in a row, he has the advantage, everytime! Unfortunately for SxS shooters most stages are set up just that way. I also understand that when things go wrong with a 97 they go REALLY wrong, but that to can happen to us all. Just my 2 shots worth, JEL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I'm a fast SxS shooter, all things considered, very fast, but when a very fast 97 shooter gets up and they're 4 SG targets in a row, he has the advantage, everytime! Unfortunately for SxS shooters most stages are set up just that way. I haven't been around long enough to know so this may be my chance to find out. I've HEARD that a stage with two shotgun targets favor the SXS, a stage with four shotgun targets is a toss up between SXS and '97 and a stage with more than four favors the '97. From what I've seen, I tend to think target placement/order of engagement has more to do with it than just the number of targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I haven't been around long enough to know so this may be my chance to find out. I've HEARD that a stage with two shotgun targets favor the SXS, a stage with four shotgun targets is a toss up between SXS and '97 and a stage with more than four favors the '97. From what I've seen, I tend to think target placement/order of engagement has more to do with it than just the number of targets. This +1 The good 97 shooters around here will grab something between 4 and 6 shells and most of the time will not have to go back to the belt at all, while the good SxS shooters grab em 2 at a time, but because of the split times between shots (.2 or so for the SxS) both styles average out around 1 second per round for the first 4. After that the 97 has a clear advantage as a fifth target for a SxS usually requires a load of two and a time of 1.7 or so for that single shot and a 97 adds about 1 second for the same target. That said if the targets are relatively close together 1 1/2 - 2 feet the split times for a SxS closes the gap pretty well and you will get some flack from the 97 shooters. Personally I don't care whether it is even or odd numbers for the SG as I think over the course of 6 stages (or more) there are bigger time cuts to be made in transitions and "glitches" in your guns which tend to even out the SG differences. Regards Gateway Kid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Lee Goode Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I haven't been around long enough to know so this may be my chance to find out. I've HEARD that a stage with two shotgun targets favor the SXS, a stage with four shotgun targets is a toss up between SXS and '97 and a stage with more than four favors the '97. From what I've seen, I tend to think target placement/order of engagement has more to do with it than just the number of targets. This +1 The good 97 shooters around here will grab something between 4 and 6 shells and most of the time will not have to go back to the belt at all, while the good SxS shooters grab em 2 at a time, but because of the split times between shots (.2 or so for the SxS) both styles average out around 1 second per round for the first 4. After that the 97 has a clear advantage as a fifth target for a SxS usually requires a load of two and a time of 1.7 or so for that single shot and a 97 adds about 1 second for the same target. That said if the targets are relatively close together 1 1/2 - 2 feet the split times for a SxS closes the gap pretty well and you will get some flack from the 97 shooters. Personally I don't care whether it is even or odd numbers for the SG as I think over the course of 6 stages (or more) there are bigger time cuts to be made in transitions and "glitches" in your guns which tend to even out the SG differences. Regards Gateway Kid +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I don't care how many they set up, I'll shoot at 'em til they're down or I run out of shells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sun Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 +3 this is exactly the problem with odd numbered shots. The SXS may have faster split times but they normally don't make up nearly as much time as going to the belt for shells. I have no problem with 5 SG on a stage. Just even the match out somewhere with a stage that has 6 SG targets each 3 pairs spread apart several feet with each target pair spaced close together. Now the match is evened out. I'm a fast SxS shooter, all things considered, very fast, but when a very fast 97 shooter gets up and they're 4 SG targets in a row, he has the advantage, everytime! Unfortunately for SxS shooters most stages are set up just that way. I also understand that when things go wrong with a 97 they go REALLY wrong, but that to can happen to us all. Just my 2 shots worth, JEL John E, Come to the '97 side.......I'll loan ya one. CS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I haven't been around long enough to know so this may be my chance to find out. I've HEARD that a stage with two shotgun targets favor the SXS, a stage with four shotgun targets is a toss up between SXS and '97 and a stage with more than four favors the '97. From what I've seen, I tend to think target placement/order of engagement has more to do with it than just the number of targets. I agree with what fantum said but practice and a great shotgun helps overcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 The "problem" is well on its way to resolving itself. You see fewer and fewer 97s used in CAS as folks take up or go back to the 2row. Various reasons, one of which is that all the 97s there are is all there will ever be and folks are realizing they are too valuable for WBAS to use in regular CAS. I shot a 2row the first 3 years in CAS as that's the only sg I had. Then I started shooting and collecting 97s for about a decade. For the last several years I have gone back to the double as have many many others. Once a year or so I will break out an 87 just for grins but mostly just use doubles for CAS. All my 97s are too valuable for that other too much fun game of WBAS to use for CAS. Now I've got the eyeballs peeled for Model 12s. Hope to get a few before the WBers bid 'em up too high like the cowboys did for 97s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Before SASS came along, you could buy a 97 for $1.98 just about anywhere. The only value they have is to the Cowboy Action Shooter, and 99% of those guns have been mutilated to the point that they are totally worthless to anyone else. It is a fact however that the source for them has dried up considerably, and as tough as the old work horse is, they are starting to wear out. Now that the Chi-coms have stopped making the reproductions, things are indeed moving toward the SXS. There are a good deal of folks who believe that the 97 shouldn't have even been allowed in the CAS game. Now... the problem starts all over again. I don't see any high quality SXS out there that are directed toward CAS. The pool of BSS and SKB is getting smaller, which has driven their price up to the sky! I'm amazed that someone has not started producing a "Quality" SXS directed toward the CAS game. Yes, yes, I am very aware of the Stoegers.. they are certainly a functionable gun, but are not the highest in quality. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dang It Dan 13202 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Yeah, it is a great technique IF you can get the shells between your fingers before the camera rolls. I was around when Billy was trying to make that work. Usually more shells hit the ground than the target. It was fun to watch him get mad. Just sayin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E. Law Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I haven't been around long enough to know so this may be my chance to find out. I've HEARD that a stage with two shotgun targets favor the SXS, a stage with four shotgun targets is a toss up between SXS and '97 and a stage with more than four favors the '97. From what I've seen, I tend to think target placement/order of engagement has more to do with it than just the number of targets. I've heard this to, but how often do you see stages with only 2 SG targets on it? I've personally have not see very many (except a certain regional a few years ago) and when I have most people don't like it including me (same regional again). As for 4 targets breaking even or a being a "toss up"? Unless the pairs are seperated the SxS is again at a disadvantage to the 97 shooter who can pull 4 and have a good smooth (not perfect) run. Going to the belt a second time is approx. 1.5 secs for a fast shooter, the SxS shooter has to have everything go perfect (and how often does that happen) in order to get close in makeing up for that amount of time. As for 6 or more shots, again benefit to the 97 for less times to the belt. Again, if they split the target pairs up so the shooter has to swing the barrel a bigger distance between them they will be pretty even, but if you have 4, 6, or more right in a row then the advantage goes to the 97. I'm not complaining and I will not switch (I love shooting my SxS) I'm just stating what I believe and have seen. Also, overall (from my experience) most big matches I have been to make a good attempt to "even" the target placements for the different SGs across the entire match. JEL Now throw in someone like "Fireball" and that dang blasted (super fast) 87 of his and we have yet another issue to deal with! I love watching him shoot that thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E. Law Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 John E, Come to the '97 side.......I'll loan ya one. CS Ahhhhhh NEVER!!!! Your "force" is not that strong! But thanks for the offer. JEL Cypress, I can feel the SxS shootier in you, come back from the 97 side.....The Saga continues! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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