Short stroke mods vs parts

[Silver Shadow]

There have been several topics, regarding modified vs stock rifles and what rifles are used by top shooters, which have raised a specific question for me.

 

I have an Uberti 1866 that I feel ready to consider short stroking. My question is can any of you experienced toggle link shooters tell me, with some detail, what is involved in a short stroke modification of original parts. Toggle link replacement seems fairly straight forward, but I would like to make a decision on which will work best for me. Price is not a concern, but I am curious about strength/reliability of modified parts vs replacement toggle parts, and also are there any differences in "out of battery" concerns between the two? Also, aside from "do it yourself possibilities" and availability of repair/replacement parts, are there any other concerns that differ between the two methods?

 

I apologize if my searches did not indicate the passing of this horse, but if that is the case a link to a pertinent thread would be great.

 

Thanks

SS

[Shooting Bull]

The modification involves cutting, welding and changing the geometry of the action to acheive the shorter stroke. As you already know, changeing parts is just that. (Although it's not QUITE that simple, there is some fitting involved.) The biggest difference I see is that once the parts have been modified they can't go back. On the other hand, if you swap parts in, you can always swap them back out later.

[Snakebite]

I wrote a long winded dissertation here and then decided to just delete it. Don't want to make anyone mad.. so I'll just say this.

 

I prefer replacing the stock parts to wielding, bending, cutting etc. I have MANY reason, but will just leave it at that.

 

Be aware.... there is more to it than just dropping in the parts and calling it done... that is if you want the gun to be done right.

 

Snakebite

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

Would have preferred the long winded dissertation. I find that those fokes who get mad at someone else's opinions are always outspoken up with their own opinions! I do have two CCs and one JSs model '73s but have tried parts swap guns by a couple of makers that seemed just as smooth. After spending a bunch-o-bux, I can now say with confidence that action job money means a lot less than time spent practising!

[August West, SASS #45079]

Price is not a concern

 

Then, contact a reputable 'smith and commission him to prepare a gun for you.

[Silver Shadow]

Snakebite-Don't worry about me, I wouldn't ask a question if I didn't want to hear the answer. Your dissertation may have addressed more concerns than I have thought of, but I thank you for your response none the less. And as I recall I have appreciated many of your responses in other threads as well.

 

As I've pondered more on this subject, I think I can boil this down to my main concern: I've been able to take a close look at photos and illustrations of short stroke toggles both on and off the rifle. I have a pretty good understanding of what needs to happen and how comfortable I am with how they accomplish it, geometrically and mechanically speaking. I, however, have not been able to find any comprehensive information as to exactly what they are going to do to my rifle if I send it off to have the stock part modifications done, thus not being able to form my own opinion about how I feel about it. Unfortunately I'm not one of those guys that is comfortable with "who cares what they did, as long as it works". I don't want to infringe on anybody's trade secrets, but if somebody was willing to share a picture or illustration of the modifications, I would be grateful.

 

Silver "speaking of dissertations" Shadow

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Read the instructions for installing the short Stroke kit.

 

If you do not feel comfortable doing EVERYTHING that is involved, send the gun out to be done by someone who does.

 

You should think about installing new springs (I recommend the new Action Springs), a lightened carrier (I prefer the brass to the aluminum), a new firing pin and keeper filing, filing the receiver to a allow the rounds to feed smoother, and a coil or slick spring main spring.

 

An action job on a 66/73 is the whole thing along with a little love and tenderness to make it all come together.

 

Good luck to you.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

I have three 73s all with short stroke kits. One is a Codymatic with the mods he does to the existing parts. The second has a C&I store 3 rd gen short stroke kit. The third is the newest having a Pioneer Gun Works short stroke kit (not the shortest). All three guns have been worked over by top gunsmiths. All function as identical as possible. Bottom line they can all be made to work identically and shoot very well and fast if I do my job, but a good gunsmith is how they got that way. If you do not know how to do things like get the head space perfect then the short stroke kit should be installed by someone else. Just installing the short stroke kit is only the start, the rest of the action requires gunsmithing to make the rifle run at it's best.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

I'll begin by saying that any short stroke minus an action job is backing up...making the rifle much more difficult to lever. Having a rifle that is smooth and reliable is, IMO, the two MOST important things to have in a rifle.

 

I don't know the in's and out's of every gunsmith out there, but one of the most "famous" of the cut-it smiths is Cody Conagher. He actually does work on both the links AND the lever. They are smooth. I believe Jimmy Spurs accomplishes the short stroke similarly, but don't take that as the gospel. His guns are smooth as well. The Cowboys and Indians 4th generation short strokes were sold as kits, the kit included links AND a lever. With any gun that has been short stroked with both links and levers "adjusted" or manufactured to work together, in order to change the short stoke to another version, both parts must be replaced.

 

The "smoothest" short strokes are probably going to be the ones that are a bit longer (Conagher, Spurs, C & I 1st through 3rd generation for example). It makes sense. The shorter the stroke, the less leverage you have. The "smoothest" gun would actually be a gun that has not been short stroked, but has had a super-duper action job. The trick is finding the balance between short and smooth that you think is best for you. Note that I said "think." My opinion is what a shooter "thinks" is best for them IS best for them.

 

Personally, after having shot a Cody Conagher for years, I prefer a 4th generation C & I, which although is smooth, is NOT as smooth as the Cody rifle. The 4th generation is as short as is allowed. The 5th generation is equally short, but accomplishes the short stroke using links only. I'm told the Pioneer Gun Works Super Short Stroke is basically the same throw as a 4th and 5th generation C & I. When I'm levering, I"m not babying the lever, so I never notice the slight increase in resistance.

 

Can I shoot the 4th generation faster than I can a Cody Conagher? Probably not, but I like it and therefore...it is the best for me. The same will be true for you. Nothing we can write will tell you what is best for you. Only handling the different guns will determine what is "best" for you.

 

Once you find what feels best to you, ask the pard who let you handle it to take off the side plates. It's very easy and once the side plates are off, the 73's are an open book.

 

 

One of my shorter dissertations.

[BrimstoneJerome]

Snakebite-Don't worry about me, I wouldn't ask a question if I didn't want to hear the answer. Your dissertation may have addressed more concerns than I have thought of, but I thank you for your response none the less. And as I recall I have appreciated many of your responses in other threads as well.

 

As I've pondered more on this subject, I think I can boil this down to my main concern: I've been able to take a close look at photos and illustrations of short stroke toggles both on and off the rifle. I have a pretty good understanding of what needs to happen and how comfortable I am with how they accomplish it, geometrically and mechanically speaking. I, however, have not been able to find any comprehensive information as to exactly what they are going to do to my rifle if I send it off to have the stock part modifications done, thus not being able to form my own opinion about how I feel about it. Unfortunately I'm not one of those guys that is comfortable with "who cares what they did, as long as it works". I don't want to infringe on anybody's trade secrets, but if somebody was willing to share a picture or illustration of the modifications, I would be grateful.

 

Silver "speaking of dissertations" Shadow

 

http://cowboygunworks.com/new.html

 

I think this is what your looking for.

[Silver Shadow]

Buck-as always I do appreciate your willingness to provide well thought out and presented "dissertations".

 

I do appreciate the information you guys have shared. It may not have answered the question in the way I was imagining, but it was very helpful none the less. I think you have given me enough to make an informed decision. I would still like to see a "cut-it" style mod in person, or photo, but, unfortunately, I don't know any pards that have one. I've only been in the sport a short time and am still slowly getting to know a few people.(active participation at our club is rather small) I have shot a couple of larger matches, but spent most of my time trying not to do something stoopid. For me that leaves very little time to get to know people. Oh, and please don't confuse my greenness at CAS with a lack of knowledge on guns, also, I have been a mechanic and machinist for many years, so I fully understand your cautions on additional tuning and fitting for a harmonious outcome.

 

SS

[Silver Shadow]

http://cowboygunworks.com/new.html

 

I think this is what your looking for.

 

Exactly, Thank you Brimstone I new a Wire pard could come through for me, if anyone could.

 

Thanks

SS

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Who fixes them modified guns...when ya need quick fixin.

 

Ohhhhh...there are stories out there...

 

Good luck!

[Snakebite]

Who fixes them modified guns...when ya need quick fixin.

 

Ohhhhh...there are stories out there...

 

Good luck!

 

NOT ME!

 

Snakebite

[twelve mile REB]

Who fixes them modified guns...when ya need quick fixin.

 

Ohhhhh...there are stories out there...

 

Good luck!

 

JIM BOWIE that's who, if your at Winter Range or EOT

12

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

JIM BOWIE that's who, if your at Winter Range or EOT

12

 

Actually...it Jim whether I'm at WR or EOT...it's always Jim!!!

 

But...that's just me...

 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Although I don't know Jim Bowie or some of the other reputable smiths that attend these big matches, they truly earn and deserve my respect.

 

Its hard to pack up all your gunsmithin gear, tools, parts, etc.....and head out to a match knowing that you'll be busy 24 hours a day during these matches.

 

They encounter big jobs and small jobs.

 

They will meet strangers needing nearly impossible things accomplished BEFORE the 1st stage 'in the morning'. And in some cases, fixing something that somebody else broke.

 

So when you decide on that rifle and who to buy it from, ya best listen to the advice above and go with one of the gunsmiths that not only put out top notch products, but stands behind it and services that rifle in the manner you can TRUST!

 

 

..........Widder

[Anvil Al #59168]

I wrote a long winded dissertation here and then decided to just delete it. Don't want to make anyone mad.. so I'll just say this.

 

I prefer replacing the stock parts to wielding, bending, cutting etc. I have MANY reason, but will just leave it at that.

 

Be aware.... there is more to it than just dropping in the parts and calling it done... that is if you want the gun to be done right.

 

Snakebite

 

 

No cut and weld for me.

If something breaks. I don't want to have to wait and send it back for forth to get it fixed.

With mainly only the person that did the cut and weld to fix it.

 

Like the C&I SS Kits for me.

 

Most any good smith can fix what ever might happen. Parts easier to get that having to send gun off.

 

Can put the gun back to original if you want without any problems.

 

just don't see a down side to it.

 

Cut and weld. I can see the down side.

 

But that's just me.

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

Both of my two picks to do 73's cut and weld. One no longer works on them as he was tired of relying on Uberti's quality control. Neither gun has needed constant tinkering or "tuning" like some of the others I see. What I have are two rifles with custom made and moded parts that are built to shooter and gun specs. Some folks in this business want to sell parts. Some want to build guns. Take your pick.

[Colt McAllister]

Silver Shadow, Here is what you will end up with here on the wire. By the end of tonight you will get a dozen guys telling you go to this smith because (fill in the blank). Then you will get another dozen guys telling you to do this because (fill in the blank). Then you will get a seprate group telling you you need to do this because (fill in the blank). Some will be respectful and actually try to help. Some will be abrasive while trying to help. Most shoot guns by the smith they are recommending and that is what they know. Below are the 3 types of short strokes available along with some good and bad points for each. I suggest you handle and shoot as many different types of short strokes as you can before deciding. Some people shoot the longer short strokes better than the ultra short strokes just because the size of their hands. The opposite is also true.

 

 

1.Cut and weld short stroke.

 

This is done by cutting the lever up inside the gun and welding the top of it in a new position. This takes the slop out of the action. Then the factory lifter arm and factory links are altered to help accomplish correct timing.

 

Pro: Should end up very smooth because of the longer stroke

Pro: Springs can typically be left with more meat on them for longer life span

Pro: More forgiving to shoot because of the longer stroke

Pro: Parts are easy to work on as long as the smith understands the workings of the gun. "Assuming it was done close to right in the 1st place."

Con: Welder should know what they are doing "that is not always the case"

Con: Parts would have to be replaced if you took it back to stock (Nobody ever does this, who wants a stock rifle?)

 

2.Link Kit short stroke.

 

This is done by replacing the factory links and lifter arm. These parts take up the slop in the action.

 

Pro: A shorter stroke almost the shortest depending on what one you buy

Pro: All seem to be quality parts

Pro: Anyone and their brother can put one in (and they are). This creates a lot of work for gunsmiths

Con: These tend to stack up more than other short strokes do to the way they are timed

Con: Main spring needs to be ground ultra light to over come the physics of the kit. This will take life out of the main spring

Con: Something goes wrong during install a new part is needed. That can be expensive.

Con: Very unforgiving to shoot when it comes to the Ultra short kits because of how the gun needs to be timed

 

3.Cut and Weld combination with links short stroke.

 

This is done by replacing the factory links and lifter arm and cutting and welding the lever. A smith can use links that are not as severe of a short stroke a long with repositioning the top of the lever. This combo takes the slop out of the action.

 

Pro: This gives you the shortest stroke allowed by sass

Pro: This also tends to be smoother than the Ultra short strokes because of the physics up inside the gun

Pro: A little more forgiving when timing the action

Pro: Main spring can be left a little heavier to create the same smoothness. This will add life to the main spring.

Con: Welder and smith should know what they are doing.

Con: You will need to buy a lever if you want to bring it back to factory spec. (Why you'd want to I have no idea.)

Con: More specialized job that not as many smiths or parts replacer's understand

 

All of these can be extremely reliable and durable when done right. The reverse is true when done wrong.

 

All the smiths I know will stand behind their work. The good ones even pay for shipping to and from them if the repair is their fault.

 

If the gun is done by a good smith, don't give it to another guy to work on. Get it back to the original smith.

 

Stay away from aluminum carriers, after market mainsprings and some of the aftermarket lever and lifter arm springs.

 

Judge reliability by a shooter that can shoot their rifle 5,000-10,000 rounds a year for multiple years not the guy that goes to one or two monthly shoots a month and never practices.

 

I hope this helps,

 

I don't hear the stories I see the work on a regular basis. That is what I base my facts on.

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

Silver Shadow, Here is what you will end up with here on the wire. By the end of tonight you will get a dozen guys telling you go to this smith because (fill in the blank). Then you will get another dozen guys telling you to do this because (fill in the blank). Then you will get a seprate group telling you you need to do this because (fill in the blank). Some will be respectful and actually try to help. Some will be abrasive while trying to help. Most shoot guns by the smith they are recommending and that is what they know. Below are the 3 types of short strokes available along with some good and bad points for each. I suggest you handle and shoot as many different types of short strokes as you can before deciding. Some people shoot the longer short strokes better than the ultra short strokes just because the size of their hands. The opposite is also true.

 

 

1.Cut and weld short stroke.

 

This is done by cutting the lever up inside the gun and welding the top of it in a new position. This takes the slop out of the action. Then the factory lifter arm and factory links are altered to help accomplish correct timing.

 

Pro: Should end up very smooth because of the longer stroke

Pro: Springs can typically be left with more meat on them for longer life span

Pro: More forgiving to shoot because of the longer stroke

Pro: Parts are easy to work on as long as the smith understands the workings of the gun. "Assuming it was done close to right in the 1st place."

Con: Welder should know what they are doing "that is not always the case"

Con: Parts would have to be replaced if you took it back to stock (Nobody ever does this, who wants a stock rifle?)

 

2.Link Kit short stroke.

 

This is done by replacing the factory links and lifter arm. These parts take up the slop in the action.

 

Pro: A shorter stroke almost the shortest depending on what one you buy

Pro: All seem to be quality parts

Pro: Anyone and their brother can put one in (and they are). This creates a lot of work for gunsmiths

Con: These tend to stack up more than other short strokes do to the way they are timed

Con: Main spring needs to be ground ultra light to over come the physics of the kit. This will take life out of the main spring

Con: Something goes wrong during install a new part is needed. That can be expensive.

Con: Very unforgiving to shoot when it comes to the Ultra short kits because of how the gun needs to be timed

 

3.Cut and Weld combination with links short stroke.

 

This is done by replacing the factory links and lifter arm and cutting and welding the lever. A smith can use links that are not as severe of a short stroke a long with repositioning the top of the lever. This combo takes the slop out of the action.

 

Pro: This gives you the shortest stroke allowed by sass

Pro: This also tends to be smoother than the Ultra short strokes because of the physics up inside the gun

Pro: A little more forgiving when timing the action

Pro: Main spring can be left a little heavier to create the same smoothness. This will add life to the main spring.

Con: Welder and smith should know what they are doing.

Con: You will need to buy a lever if you want to bring it back to factory spec. (Why you'd want to I have no idea.)

Con: More specialized job that not as many smiths or parts replacer's understand

 

All of these can be extremely reliable and durable when done right. The reverse is true when done wrong.

 

All the smiths I know will stand behind their work. The good ones even pay for shipping to and from them if the repair is their fault.

 

If the gun is done by a good smith, don't give it to another guy to work on. Get it back to the original smith.

 

Stay away from aluminum carriers, after market mainsprings and some of the aftermarket lever and lifter arm springs.

 

Judge reliability by a shooter that can shoot their rifle 5,000-10,000 rounds a year for multiple years not the guy that goes to one or two monthly shoots a month and never practices.

 

I hope this helps,

 

I don't hear the stories I see the work on a regular basis. That is what I base my facts on.

 

Colt,

Very good info, But I must disagree with your opinion with your statement begining with Aluminum carriers ( i don't use one ) but know many people with thousands of round with no problems, and I strongly disagree with your opinion on aftermarket springs may they be main or lifter lever, again know of several examples of aftermarket springs with thousands of rounds and still going strong.

 

KK

[Colt McAllister]

Colt,

Very good info, But I must disagree with your opinion with your statement begining with Aluminum carriers ( i don't use one ) but know many people with thousands of round with no problems, and I strongly disagree with your opinion on aftermarket springs may they be main or lifter lever, again know of several examples of aftermarket springs with thousands of rounds and still going strong.

 

KK

 

I didn't say aftermarket springs aren't reliable, I just don't think they are the best way to go. As far as aluminum carriers goes, well I have a shoe box full of ones I pulled out because of feeding problems and yes I wore one out at EOT a few years ago. What happens is little divots start wearing on the surfaces of the carrier that scoops the empty off the the extractor. This allows the bolt to go farther and farther back in to the receiver with the empty still attached. Until it wears enough to stove pipe the empty at a 45 degree angle. This is because the bolt is so far back in to the receiver it can't raise up off the cartridge rim. When this happens on the 10th round presto chango you bought yourself a minor safety. The brass rim actually wears through the anodizing and the aluminum is butter soft after that. I've fixed some kit guns that do this right from the start. It usually starts up on quick multiple taps on a single targets because the shooter is running the gun faster at that point.

[Colt McAllister]

No cut and weld for me.

If something breaks. I don't want to have to wait and send it back for forth to get it fixed.

With mainly only the person that did the cut and weld to fix it.

 

Like the C&I SS Kits for me.

 

Most any good smith can fix what ever might happen. Parts easier to get that having to send gun off.

 

Can put the gun back to original if you want without any problems.

 

just don't see a down side to it.

 

Cut and weld. I can see the down side.

 

But that's just me.

 

 

 

90% of the time the parts that usually wear or break are altered the same on both kit and cut and weld jobs.ie extractors or springs. Unless the gun is a nightmare altogether.

[Marshal Harland Wolff, SASS #5019]

I prefer C & I link kits or the guns hat I build. I fixed enough bad cut weld/jobs over the last 18 years to have forms my opinions as such...now before I insult people who have posted on ts thread who build guns as well...at this posting, the guns that I have fixed were of many so called smiths but none have posted on ts thread as yet. As with any process, one needs jigs and clamps and such o keep things in proper alignment when welding levers back together. Those who do their cut/welds in this way generally have guns that run well over time and the who don't tend to screw up the geometry of the gun pretty badly and when I see the guns they have to start relplacing parts quickly. For the record, I am against bending the lever no matter who does it and how. But that's just my opinion. To each their own. For me, the link kit was a better option because it was a good quality part, quicker to install and polish, and the customer always got a good outcome and when I questioned several lever benders they said they got more labor $$ for doing it instead of making the customer pay for a more expensive part. My answer was always; if the link kit was better to use even if it was more expensive, why would not want to do the customer right; I usually got no answer. Y'all know where I stand. Enjoy the fire!

 

HW

[Snakebite]

I prefer C & I link kits or the guns hat I build. I fixed enough bad cut weld/jobs over the last 18 years to have forms my opinions as such...now before I insult people who have posted on ts thread who build guns as well...at this posting, the guns that I have fixed were of many so called smiths but none have posted on ts thread as yet. As with any process, one needs jigs and clamps and such o keep things in proper alignment when welding levers back together. Those who do their cut/welds in this way generally have guns that run well over time and the who don't tend to screw up the geometry of the gun pretty badly and when I see the guns they have to start relplacing parts quickly. For the record, I am against bending the lever no matter who does it and how. But that's just my opinion. To each their own. For me, the link kit was a better option because it was a good quality part, quicker to install and polish, and the customer always got a good outcome and when I questioned several lever benders they said they got more labor $$ for doing it instead of making the customer pay for a more expensive part. My answer was always; if the link kit was better to use even if it was more expensive, why would not want to do the customer right; I usually got no answer. Y'all know where I stand. Enjoy the fire!

 

HW

+1

 

I use to get a few levers that cracked where they had been drilled and an adjusting screw installed. The screw made fine tuning kinda neat, but it sure did create a weak point on the lever.

 

Snakebite

[Marshal Harland Wolff, SASS #5019]

+1

 

I use to get a few levers that cracked where they had been drilled and an adjusting screw installed. The screw made fine tuning kinda neat, but it sure did create a weak point on the lever.

 

Snakebite

 

Agreed. That's about the time I stopped putting screws in my levers too. We've now found ways around needing the screws too; tats a pretty cool thing too!

 

HW

[Dang It Dan 13202]

Well I am a proffessional rifle breaker. I can break a rifle almost faster than anybody in the Southeast (except maybe Cowboy Junkie). I have had almost every set up you can imagine, and I think all the top "smiths" have built at least one rifle for me at one time or another. In this respect I am qualified to comment on some of the set ups mentioned above.

 

Cut and Weld. One of the best rifles I ever had was a done this way but it was before the super short-stroke era. I would say the rifle was a Third-Gen set up. That is, it had the same approximate length stroke as the C&I Third-gen. The rifle lasted almost four years before it needed repair.

 

Kit guns. The attraction here was that (almost anyone) can achieve the shortest stroke possible with either of the two most popular kits availible today. BUT, as Colt mentioned you will need to do alot more to make them smooth and ultimately "shootable". This can be the maddening part. A super light main spring is a must BUT this may cause problems with light primer hits. Light primer hits will lead to having to either replace your firing pin extension with a lightweight version, or polishing and radiusing both the inside and outside of the factory unit. You also need to replace the firing pin with an over-length pin which has to be fit, and a lighter firing pin spring. The list goes on from there.

 

So what's the conclusion? That part is easy.....you will spend time and money to get a rifle to really function reliably no matter which direction you go. Don't be surprised to spend North of $700.00 to really get one "race-ready". Find a Smith that you like with a good reputation and let him tell you what he likes to do on the rifle and take notes. Talk to more than just one. Shoot everybody's rifle in the meantime but remember if you pick a Smith that is located across the Country you will spend big money sending it back and forth if there is a problem.

 

Just my .02 worth.