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rawhide teddy01

wrong full arrest

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KW, did the young trooper ask for match information, or any other documentation you might have had proving your purpose?

 

Are SASS sanctioned matches "NRA approved".....whatever that means? And what is a pistol license? Is that a concealed carry permit?

 

Either way, the entire experience you've been subjected to is upsetting to me and it sure makes me appreciate my home state that much more as well as the fact that we still have separate states at all these days.

 

It's just a damn shame that such a beautiful state has such @$#! laws that apparently aren't even properly taught to the enforcers. Looks more and more like I may never see the state of New York. :angry:

sass it is not sactioned match i wish it was it would be lot easier .state trooper did not care if I was coming or going from he was'nt sure you are rigth I am still having nigthmares and I realy don 't know what I am going to face fine or jail time communist New york mfrs that's all .

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sass it is not sactioned match i wish it was it would be lot easier .state trooper did not care if I was coming or going from he was'nt sure you are rigth I am still having nigthmares and I realy don 't know what I am going to face fine or jail time communist New york mfrs that's all .

 

 

Hire an attorney, you can't afford not to!

 

Public Defenders are a hit or miss proposition. In some jurisdictions around here they are as good as anyone, in others, well...... Even the best PD's are overworked in most jurisdictions.

 

Hire an attorney.

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Your story should be on FOX news. Call them.

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I'm sorry but that is simply not correct.

Refusal to consent to a search does NOT constitute probable cause.

Here's some case law

United States v. Alexander, 835 F.2d 1406, 1409 (11th Cir. 1988); People v. Miller, 496 P.2d

1228, 1232 (Cal. 1972); State v. Ripperger, 514 N.W.2d 740, 746 (Iowa Ct. App. 1994); State v.

Zelinske, 779 P.2d 971, 975 (N.M. Ct. App. 1989); State v. Gressel, 554 P.2d 1014, 1016 (Or. 1976)

(en banc); State v. Gilmour, 901 P.2d 894, 896 (Or. Ct. App. 1995); State v. Brown, 825 P.2d 282,

284–85 (Or. Ct. App. 1992); State v. Butler, 641 P.2d 655, 657 n.1 (Or. Ct. App. 1982); Whitehead v.

State, 698 A.2d 1115, 1118–19 (Md. Ct. Spec. App. 1997); State v. Gibbs, 31 N.W.2d 143, 147 (Wis.

1948).

 

Now, that being said, it doesn't mean that an overzealous young officer won't go ahead and conduct the search. But it does mean that what he finds will be inadmissible.

 

Bob that,s what they were trying to make me believe I know better then that, They were also saying if you don't consent LEOs could hold you till they could get dogs there or search warrant, one even made a statement something like if a LEO sees you are nervous or scared that is enough to show PC to search your vehicle. I also am aware of the fact that if LEOs look in your windows and see something suspicious or illegal that does give them PC.

 

I are an expert too, I stayed at a Holiday Inn one night but it weren't last night and I watch Cops every Saturday night :lol: :lol: :lol::D

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EGG and Badlands I have had this discussion (argument) about probable cause on here with a few people. According to some, LEOs can basically do what ever they want when it comes to searching your vehicle and if you refuse to allow LEOs to search your vehicle, LEOs then have probable cause to search because you refused. If the OP talks the same way he writes I can see a LEO taking advantage of the situation to search and arrest the OP

 

 

WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

 

Standing on your Constitutional rights can NEVER be construed as probable cause for a search, even in a vehicle. EVER. You can bet your bottom dollar that should an LEO ever consider my silence as "probable cause," he/she and the department and "municipality" or state will certainly find itself on the receiving end of a lawsuit.

 

However, our compadre admitted to having guns in the vehicle. I don't know about NY's shi**y law, but I can see where the trooper thought that might be probable cause. Get an attorney. Best yet, get a New York Civil Rights Attorney....after successfully defending the criminal action, SUE THE BA$TARD$!!

 

Buena suerte, amigos

eGG

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Bob that,s what they were trying to make me believe I know better then that, )Good for you) They were also saying if you don't consent LEOs could hold you till they could get dogs there or search warrant,(If they have reasonable suspicion, but you'll never get a warrant on just that) one even made a statement something like if a LEO sees you are nervous or scared that is enough to show PC to search your vehicle. (NOPE) I also am aware of the fact that if LEOs look in your windows and see something suspicious or illegal that does give them PC. (YUP)

 

I are an expert too, I stayed at a Holiday Inn one night but it weren't last night and I watch Cops every Saturday night :lol: :lol: :lol::D

 

There are significant differences between probable cause and reasonable suspicion.

Probable Cause is the strongest and can lead to an arrest, reasonable suspicion is weaker and may lead to probable cause depending on the circumstances. 4th Amendment cases are incredibly numerous.

Constitutional law is one subject you really need to be good at to be an effective officer. Otherwise you're likely to be embarrassed in court, and maybe sued. Unfortunately some officers are weak in that area

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It is my understanding from a friend in LE from NY that the 'pistol licence' NY requires is a licence to own a pistol, not a concealed carry permit. Down here in NC, we do not have 'pistol licences' in the sense that NY means, so I don't know what we're supposed to bring with us through NY. (And neither does my NY LE friend, there is apparently no provision that covers someone from a state that doesn't issue pistol licences.)

That would pose a problem for us Vermonters also as the state Constitution is are permit for ownership and to carry open or concealed our choice. Adios Sgt. Jake

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Dear Monco I called rigth away. they gave me phone # for the Attorney nra told me

if he is intrested they may help me with funds thank again this the best post so

ketucky Wrangler#7647

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Dear Monco I called rigth away. they gave me phone # for the Attorney nra told me

if he is intrested they may help me with funds thank again this the best post so

ketucky Wrangler#7647

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Well,

I got a couple of Stoooopid questions. :rolleyes:

#1 There are 19 SASS Clubs listed in the SASS info for NY. Why haven't any of those Pards spoke up on their laws while traveling. I damn sure know the Texas laws.

#2 Do they get out of state shooters to the TWO big matches listed? If Yes how do they get there. :unsure:

Wyandot in the dark on this one.

In Texas the LEO would have wanted to admire the guns. Would have said Have a nice day Sir.

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KW,

You are quite welcome and I wish you the BEST of luck getting through this mess without much if any additional pain. From what you told us, I don't feel that you deserved this kind of treatment and I almost feel as if the injustice was done to me. In a way, it was done to all of us.

I suppose your ill experience is a good lesson to all of us when transporting firearms across state borders. Especially states with overly restrictive firearms laws. We must be prepared and follow their laws to the letter or avoid those states altogether.....which is my plan because according to your story, you went out of your way to obey their laws and were still arrested.....all for a failure to signal when changing lanes on a highway.

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NYS is brutal. Hwe doesn't say if he was upstate or in NYC area, (makes a difference), but the only legal way a non-resident can transport handguns TO A MATCH IN NY is if you have the match schedule and it is an NRA sanctioned match (see Heluva Rukus instructions for this). Peaceable journey rules are very sketchy when NYS is concerned. If there was any ammo in the box, yer sunk. if the box was within reach of the driver, yer sunk. If the trooper doesn't know the law, yer sunk.

Be advised he's potentially facing a multi-count (one per gun) felony here, which is no joke. Contact NRA and use a lawyer they recommend who does this work IN NYS.

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NYS is brutal. Hwe doesn't say if he was upstate or in NYC area, (makes a difference), but the only legal way a non-resident can transport handguns TO A MATCH IN NY is if you have the match schedule and it is an NRA sanctioned match (see Heluva Rukus instructions for this). Peaceable journey rules are very sketchy when NYS is concerned. If there was any ammo in the box, yer sunk. if the box was within reach of the driver, yer sunk. If the trooper doesn't know the law, yer sunk.

Be advised he's potentially facing a multi-count (one per gun) felony here, which is no joke. Contact NRA and use a lawyer they recommend who does this work IN NYS.

 

Thanks for the info.

What a shame that this can happen in any State to a good person.

Next question. If he posted Bond to the State ( NOT A Bondsman) can he forfeit that bond and be OK? That takes place with a lot of out of State Violations. That way you do not have to go to court

The fine has already been set with the bond at the Court.

Felony is not good that gets ya time in the "Big House"

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Once upon a time, I heard that there was a US Federal law that basically stated that all citizens had a right to carry firearms in their vehicles provided they were unloaded and in a locked container.

In that same story, I heard that the law was structured so as to trump state and local law.

 

If this really exists then it sounds like this case has no basis.

 

Has anybody ever heard of an out of state traveller actually serving time for carrying firearms in a locked container?

I have heard of cases where people were charged and convicted of having a pistol as a carry weapon.

 

 

 

It might well be a part of the Firearm Owner Protection Act see the link.

See the "Safe Passage" Provision.

FOPA

 

Lightning Lee pointed this out earlier in post 29. (I must of missed it)

I doubt that the New York City police academy would teach this particular law.

New York State would seem to be more likely to learn it.

 

Also see the NRA ILA article on the FOPA.

NRA ILA on FOPA

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Kentucky Wrangler is a legitimate, old-time, leather/holster/saddle maker and gunsmith. His English proficiency and finances are meager. He is not the world's best businessman or marketer. I've been to his home in San Antonio to pick up my repaired 1897 and I know he was waiting on the cash to pay for his fuel to EOT in 2011. His was the first tent on the left as you came from the parking lot. I bought a nice pair of chinks from him there. I've seen his vendor tent at Tin Star Ranch Christmas shoot, 2011 Texas State Championship (where I met him), and Oakwood Jail Break this year. Some think he is from Turkey, but it's actually Armenia. He built saddles in Kentucky for several years before moving to Texas. Nice guy. The guns he had confiscated were, I assume, his demo guns for the holsters that he builds. He shot cowboy action years ago, but what he says about the stroke is probably true. I noticed a pronounced limp the last time I saw him.

 

He is just a person of limited means. The point that boils my blood is that the authorities, in this case NY, our public servants who we all work to fund, are now and then prone to slap the hell out of a normal law abiding citizen for no good reason. Even though that slap might be illegal and egregious, few individuals will stand up and fight back.

 

This could be you next time, or worse me. If it were the 1870's, I think I'd be out at the barn saddling up to ride to help him.

 

Any of you legal beagles - attorneys, prosecutors, judges have any ideas or could make any calls?

 

Anybody willing to start and be in charge of a legal defense fund? I'll kick in money. I didn't really need that new hat anyway.

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I too would pitch in to any defense fund to fight this egregious injustice. Seems the worst mistake our pard made was to dare to travel to such an unjust jurisdiction. No wonder so many citizens have such a negative view of such gestapo. I would not go there on a bet.

 

That trooper is in serious need of a remedial class in the Constitution and basic human decency. I arrested lots of scrotes packin' but I sure never arrested a single ordinary citizen for it. Stuff like this really chaps my hide.

 

Thank God I live in Texas where all citizens even New Yorkers have the right to have as many loaded pistols as they like right there in the passenger compartment with them.

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Folks, NY State law specifically says one may NOT transport a handgun into or within the boundaries of the state without a valid NYS pistol (possession) permit. Non-residents cannot get such a permit, nor can half the NY residents of counties where judges simply refuse to grant permits.

 

At one time there were signs at the state line warning "minimum 1 yr in prison".

 

A congressman can't help. Dan Rostenkowski's secretary got busted with a .32 in an airport, (checked baggage given back to her when she was bumped on a connecting flight" Christmas Eve she went to jail in albany NY dispite DR attemting to get it dropped (sheriff refused). I worked for the two-way radio shop then, and watched it all unfold, tearful lady trying to get her boss to help, etc, as I was wiring up a station in the airport.

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The shame of it is if Wrangler would have been stopped in one of NY's neighboring states Vermont,separated by most of Vermont's length by a very large lake. He if pulled over for not signaling a lane change by a trooper would have most likely not been asked if he had any firearms. In fact he could have had a loaded handgun in the vehicle or on his person,only separated by a very large lake.

The other shame any of us could be in Wranglers position,there but for the Grace.... Adios Sgt. Jake

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Folks, NY State law specifically says one may NOT transport a handgun into or within the boundaries of the state without a valid NYS pistol (possession) permit. Non-residents cannot get such a permit, nor can half the NY residents of counties where judges simply refuse to grant permits.

 

At one time there were signs at the state line warning "minimum 1 yr in prison".

 

A congressman can't help. Dan Rostenkowski's secretary got busted with a .32 in an airport, (checked baggage given back to her when she was bumped on a connecting flight" Christmas Eve she went to jail in albany NY dispite DR attemting to get it dropped (sheriff refused). I worked for the two-way radio shop then, and watched it all unfold, tearful lady trying to get her boss to help, etc, as I was wiring up a station in the airport.

 

Guess that means a lot of us will never be attending a SASS shoot in NY.

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I am really mad!!!! I can see the NYSP laughing to himself and to his buddies. "That'll teach them f--kin' Texans about gun control. Ha, Ha."

 

Do you really think he'll turn in those finely ingraved firearms to the proper authorities? My bet is, some of those guns will get lost.

 

Are they callin' down the thunder?

 

Sorry, I'm just so upset! If there is a legal defense fund set up, the Ghosts will surely help!!!

 

Ghost

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Guess that means a lot of us will never be attending a SASS shoot in NY.

There is a specific allowance for tranport to and from NRS Sanctioned matches, (Heluva Rukus, NYS SASS championships, is NRA-Sanctioned. The reqirem,ents are simple but they mean it. Boxed gun, away from drivers compartment, ammo not in case, gun unloaded, and only for like 48 hours before and after the match, and one must have a match schedulw or preoof of registration or some kind of documentation to show where yer going and when the match is (a chronicle would suffice if that's all ya got). What they don't say is one can travel through to get somewhere else, or take more than the specified amount of time.

Even with an "unconditional" NYS permit, issued upstate, I couldn't legally take my stuff through NYC, or through New Jersey when enroute from NY to FL by way of CT. Lets don't even talk about hollow point ammo in NJ (they lock ya up for ever for a box of corbons)...

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Guest Tennessee Stud, SASS# 43634 Life

Lawyer up... just as fast as you can, my friend.

 

They are so tied up... they don't like to prosecute "to the fullest". Call their bluff....

 

Forget 'bout them guns... hell. Lotta money... but not worth a day of yore life.

 

(This is NOT legal advice... just what I WOULD DO.)

 

 

Move on, you can't beat 'em.

 

ts

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You guys might want to check out FOPA. This law changed the GCA. Thus it changed the federal laws pertaining to firearms transportation.

 

It is the real answer to this problem.

 

 

Now lets get to the federal regs as they are stated at this time.

 

From atf-p-5300-4.pdf from the ATF website. This is the 2005 edition of the laws.

Federal Law on Firearms Transportation

Look to roughly page 25. but search by section 926A gets you there.

 

Title 18 Section 926A

§ 926A Interstate transportation of firearms.

 

Notwithstanding any other provisions of any law or any rule or regulation of a

State or any political subdivision therof, any person who is not otherwise prohib-

ited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be

entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may

lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully

possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is

unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily

accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such

transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compart-

ment separate from the driver’s compartment, the firearm or ammunition shall be

contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

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NYS is brutal. Hwe doesn't say if he was upstate or in NYC area, (makes a difference), but the only legal way a non-resident can transport handguns TO A MATCH IN NY is if you have the match schedule and it is an NRA sanctioned match (see Heluva Rukus instructions for this). Peaceable journey rules are very sketchy when NYS is concerned. If there was any ammo in the box, yer sunk. if the box was within reach of the driver, yer sunk. If the trooper doesn't know the law, yer sunk.

Be advised he's potentiallfacing a multi-count (one per gun) felony here, which is no joke. Contact NRA and use a lawyer they recommend who does this work IN NYS.

Hi jack I did not have ammo I display holsters hand guns WERE in truck bed and locked in bin. I BELIVED PICKED ON ME BEUCUSE I HAVE SIGIN SAYS COWBOY ACTION SHOOTING DEALER.

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EGG and Badlands I have had this discussion (argument) about probable cause on here with a few people. According to some, LEOs can basically do what ever they want when it comes to searching your vehicle and if you refuse to allow LEOs to search your vehicle, LEOs then have probable cause to search because you refused. If the OP talks the same way he writes I can see a LEO taking advantage of the situation to search and arrest the OP

 

I have never heard of this. LEO can pull some shaddy nonsense in order bypass the 4A and claim 'probable cause' (ask me how I know), but not consenting to a search is not probable cause in and of itself. Never ever consent to a search.

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Hi jack I did not have ammo I display holsters hand guns WERE in truck bed and locked in bin. I BELIVED PICKED ON ME BEUCUSE I HAVE SIGIN SAYS COWBOY ACTION SHOOTING DEALER.

 

Was the sign on the outside of your truck?

If it was, perhaps this is a learning opportunity to not tell the world that you have guns in your vehicle.

 

The fewer visible indications that you have guns in your vehicle the BETTER!

Don't give THEM the reason to stop you.

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There is a specific allowance for tranport to and from NRS Sanctioned matches, (Heluva Rukus, NYS SASS championships, is NRA-Sanctioned. The reqirem,ents are simple but they mean it. Boxed gun, away from drivers compartment, ammo not in case, gun unloaded, and only for like 48 hours before and after the match, and one must have a match schedulw or preoof of registration or some kind of documentation to show where yer going and when the match is (a chronicle would suffice if that's all ya got). What they don't say is one can travel through to get somewhere else, or take more than the specified amount of time.

Even with an "unconditional" NYS permit, issued upstate, I couldn't legally take my stuff through NYC, or through New Jersey when enroute from NY to FL by way of CT. Lets don't even talk about hollow point ammo in NJ (they lock ya up for ever for a box of corbons)...

 

 

US Federal Law Title 18 Section 926A trumps NY law! See my post 61 for the text.

 

Any FFL has a copy of this book.

It can also be seen online on the ATF web page.

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Yep Sounds like the LEO would now have probable cause.

LEO ask if you have guns. Ya have to tell the truth. Not good to Lie to LEO. He sees you are some kind of a gun shooting sport dealer. Ya say no. I think he would have probable cause with the sign being there.

A real shame for sure. Having Texas plates probably didn't help any. Makes a person glad to live in Texas. Have also seen this Gentleman's Great work

WJ

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Kentucky Wrangler is a legitimate, old-time, leather/holster/saddle maker and gunsmith. His English proficiency and finances are meager. He is not the world's best businessman or marketer. I've been to his home in San Antonio to pick up my repaired 1897 and I know he was waiting on the cash to pay for his fuel to EOT in 2011. His was the first tent on the left as you came from the parking lot. I bought a nice pair of chinks from him there. I've seen his vendor tent at Tin Star Ranch Christmas shoot, 2011 Texas State Championship (where I met him), and Oakwood Jail Break this year. Some think he is from Turkey, but it's actually Armenia. He built saddles in Kentucky for several years before moving to Texas. Nice guy. The guns he had confiscated were, I assume, his demo guns for the holsters that he builds. He shot cowboy action years ago, but what he says about the stroke is probably true. I noticed a pronounced limp the last time I saw him.

 

He is just a person of limited means. The point that boils my blood is that the authorities, in this case NY, our public servants who we all work to fund, are now and then prone to slap the hell out of a normal law abiding citizen for no good reason. Even though that slap might be illegal and egregious, few individuals will stand up and fight back.

 

This could be you next time, or worse me. If it were the 1870's, I think I'd be out at the barn saddling up to ride to help him.

 

Any of you legal beagles - attorneys, prosecutors, judges have any ideas or could make any calls?

 

Anybody willing to start and be in charge of a legal defense fund? I'll kick in money. I didn't really need that new hat anyway.

Thank you Kentucky wrangler

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Guest Paniolo Cowboy SASS #75875

I'm sorry but that is simply not correct.

Refusal to consent to a search does NOT constitute probable cause.

Here's some case law

United States v. Alexander, 835 F.2d 1406, 1409 (11th Cir. 1988); People v. Miller, 496 P.2d

1228, 1232 (Cal. 1972); State v. Ripperger, 514 N.W.2d 740, 746 (Iowa Ct. App. 1994); State v.

Zelinske, 779 P.2d 971, 975 (N.M. Ct. App. 1989); State v. Gressel, 554 P.2d 1014, 1016 (Or. 1976)

(en banc); State v. Gilmour, 901 P.2d 894, 896 (Or. Ct. App. 1995); State v. Brown, 825 P.2d 282,

284–85 (Or. Ct. App. 1992); State v. Butler, 641 P.2d 655, 657 n.1 (Or. Ct. App. 1982); Whitehead v.

State, 698 A.2d 1115, 1118–19 (Md. Ct. Spec. App. 1997); State v. Gibbs, 31 N.W.2d 143, 147 (Wis.

1948).

 

Now, that being said, it doesn't mean that an overzealous young officer won't go ahead and conduct the search. But it does mean that what he finds will be inadmissible.

 

+1

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Yep Sounds like the LEO would now have probable cause.

LEO ask if you have guns. Ya have to tell the truth. Not good to Lie to LEO. He sees you are some kind of a gun shooting sport dealer. Ya say no. I think he would have probable cause with the sign being there.

A real shame for sure. Having Texas plates probably didn't help any. Makes a person glad to live in Texas. Have also seen this Gentleman's Great work

WJ

 

Sorry Jim,

 

It's not illegal to lie to the police. Some states do require CCW permit holders to notify the police when they are carrying (if stopped), but if its not one of these few states, just say no! It's none of their business what you have in your car. So, unless they have probable cause (and if your a law abiding citizen they don't) they cannot search. It doesn't matter what bumper stickers you may have on your vehicle, that's not probable cause!

 

B.S. Like this ordeal KW is going through makes me sick! Stuff like this makes me embarrassed to be a cop.

 

JEL

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