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Easy to forget here, but we can't post load data. YES, IT'S A STUPID RULE :excl:

PM inbound.......

LG

 

TOUCHÉ!

 

So, the cartridges are annealed W-W shells, CCI 215 primers, a coffe filter wad (at base of shell) followed by xx grains of Swiss 2fg powder, a 45 cal card wad, compressed 1/8 inch, with a Buff Arms Swaged Creedmore bullet sized at 0.459 and very slightly taper crimped (to remove case mouth belling).

 

The resulting OAL is ~2.772 and the bullets do not rest upon the forcing cone when loaded. A cartridge with an OAL of 3.055 will have two grease grooves visible and will be bumped up against the forcing cone. Therefore I have considerable freebore when loaded this way.

 

I shall see what the groups look like at a humble 50 yards later today or tomorrow morning.

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Today, just before it started raining I got 11 rounds in. One fouling shot and two groups of five on paper. The additional pictures are in this link: BPCR Set 1.

 

As the story goes, I shot using sand bags and at 50 yards. I put 4 long breaths down the barrel with the blow tube between each shot. Shot 5 rounds in each group. The groups were not good, but at least all were "on paper" and there were no keyholes. The lack of keyholes was a major improvement that I believe are due to the bullets used. You will see in order:

  1. The home made drop tube
  2. First dry patch after one fouling shot
  3. The first group. Note 3 hits in a 1/2 inch spot and over all group size of 5 inches
  4. Second dry patch after the 6th shot
  5. The overall target I used
  6. Third dry patch after the 11th shot when I got home
  7. The lube star on the muzzle, partly wiped off at the 8/9 o'clock area by the carrying case foam

I'll pan lube and size some bullets at 0.457 to repeat the process and see what I get for group sizes for next week. Hopefully i wll not have to switch brass. I don't much like to change multiple components in this kind of learning/grouping process.

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STOP with the dry patch deal.

Your "fouling-out" the bore, bigtime.

All the dry patch does is to remove the lube from your last shot.

USE a blow tube ONLY for now. Use the BT after EACH shot! 4-5 deep breaths EACH time.

Swiss BP leaves a very hard and dry fouling that the blow tube makes soft and 'greasy'. This hard fouling is one of the reasons I don't like swiss BP. ;)

The picture of those 2 rounds show a "roll" crimp, NOT a taper crimp. You don't need/want a roll crimp for this.

https://picasaweb.google.com/dawilken/BPCRSet1?authkey=Gv1sRgCKuItuS_2-uXgQE#5783635854171205778

The lube star at the muzzle looks good. STOP THE DRY PATCH........

When was the last time you de-leaded the bore. Those groups are telling me it is heavy with lead.

Put the front rest under the rifle's forend ;)

Feel free to call if you like.

LG

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Hi there LG,

 

Thanks for the cpomments.

 

I can retry this without using a dry patch. Plus, since I have a bech rest, I will use it next time as well. BTW, I don't rest the barrel on the blocks.

 

I did use the blow tube as you describe (4 deep breaths EACH time).

 

As for deleading the bore, I have cleaned it and found no lead. I will clean it a second time as is my usual process in a day or two. I doubt I will find lead. I never do. Anyway, I have a friend with an electronic lead remover. I'll have to see if it will handle a 32 inch barrel. Otherwise, I may have to rig up something to my Lewis tool and pull it through to see what I get (or not) in the way of lead.

 

I did swap out the brass. I tried the drill/socket method you suggested and I have posted that picture. Take a look and tell me what you think. Annealed Brass

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Looks a little hot and to far down the case.

IF the case turns RED at all, IT's to hot.

Rest that bbl(forearm)on a bag. Why haven't you been doing that?

To get the lead out use Turpentine(pure gum spirit, ONLY)and a tight patch.

How are you cleaning the bore? With what?

STOP roll crimping your rounds. Use the size die to just close the case mouth so the round will chamber.

I still think you have lead in that bore and you just don't know it.

A tight fitting patch made from one of those lead-wipe-away cloths, works real well too.

LG

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Looks a little hot and to far down the case. IF the case turns RED at all, IT's to hot.

I guess I need a bit more pratice. I did not get red (not much), I was aiming to stop after 5 secods and I got sort of a dark rust color.

 

Rest that bbl(forearm)on a bag. Why haven't you been doing that?

Because I was resting the forearm on a padded shooting block at the range.

 

To get the lead out use Turpentine(pure gum spirit, ONLY)and a tight patch.

Do you suppose Kriol will work in lieu of Turpentine?

 

How are you cleaning the bore? With what?

I start with water and a patch and a 45 cal jag. Its a tight fit. To give you an idea of how tight ... a dry patch on the jag has to be pounded into the bore, a wet patch is a bit easier. I use a bore brush with a patch as well to scrub the bore. I will occaisionally send a ballistol patch down the bore. I send a couple of dry patches down every so often and start over again. I tend to let the barrel sit with Ballistol for a day or so.

 

STOP roll crimping your rounds.

I heard ya the first time.

 

I still think you have lead in that bore and you just don't know it.

A tight fitting patch made from one of those lead-wipe-away cloths, works real well too.

All I can say is, if there was lead in the bore, its very well hidden. I should have seen at least a few flakes.

 

Also......How do you compress the powder?

The powder is dropped down a 24 inch tube. Then I put in a card wad. Then I run the shell into a Buffalo Arms 45 Cal powder compression die to where the base of the bullet will stop. I find this stopping point and set the die to the best of my ability with a dial caliper. The match is as perfect as I can get it. My goal is to NOT hear any powder crunch when seating the bullet. None. Nada. And I do listen for it on each round because the internal capacity if each shell is just a bit different, sometimes requiring a tweak on the compression die. BTW, that is why I don't like switch out shells. Setting this die this way is a pain.

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Powder 'crunch' with BP is no big deal. Not like smokeless.

Put the flame tip 1/4"-5/16" from the case mouth.

Make a padded "V" block to help steady that round forend.

Don't think much of Kroil. Turpentine is a proven lead remover.

For cleaning, Windex multi-task with vinegar.

Don't be afraid to use a good 50 cal. Bronze bore brush.

Make a bore guide from an old case. Just drill out the primer pocket to let the rod slide.

LG

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Update: Turpentine did not cause any lead to wipe out. I doubt there is any lean in the barrel.

 

Anyway I updated my "annealing tool" forthe next time around. I put a cut down #45 spring in a 16mm socket to hold the shell from wiggling, then I put a 1/2 washer over the shell to deflect heat. I don't know how this will work but, it will be interesting.

 

Then I assembled more cartridges and added a photo of two samples. Note there in no crimp. The OAL is 2.892 +/-0.002 and I plan to test these either tomorrow or Sunday.

 

Cartridges Link

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Anneal only about 2/3 as far down as the pictures show.

Why do I see a flat spot on the bullet tips??

Otherwise all looks good.

Good luck,

LG

 

The bullets come with the flat spot already on them. These are not cast bullets. They are swadged lead. I believe the flat spot is a result of pushing the bullet out of the mold.

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Okay... The next groups were better but still not good for 50 yards. I attribute the improvement to the use of a bench rest, using a blow tube between shots and no crimp on the shells.

 

Note the verticle string on the second group of 5. Pictures with captions start here.

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Plot your order of hits on the target so I can see your CBS(First shot)

What is that thing you got it sit'n in? Get rid of it..........And repeat a second try....

Also, that case split because your not drying the chamber with a 'mop'.

LG

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Plot your order of hits on the target so I can see your CBS(First shot)

What is that thing you got it sit'n in? Get rid of it..........And repeat a second try....

Also, that case split because your not drying the chamber with a 'mop'.

LG

 

The "wet chamber" is a new one to me. I have not heard of that before. However, I'll pay attention to that. Mops are easy to come by.

 

I can plot the shots too ... next time out.

 

As for "What is that thing you got it sit'n in?" question ... are you referring to this picture? If so, that is a bench rest I am using. Last time out I tried shooting blocks which did not work so good. This rest was much steadier.

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You MUST hold the rifle yourownself to see what it really will do.

That thing is NOT a help. You have no control of the recoil, sighting, cheek-weld etc.

Reread post #69 about having the chamber dry.

Moisture in the chamber can split a case in half and damage the chamber!

Stay on it.......

LG

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You MUST hold the rifle yourownself to see what it really will do.

That thing is NOT a help. You have no control of the recoil, sighting, cheek-weld etc. ...

 

This, you will have to explain why. Specifically why would I want to introduce more human variable into the group size when I am seeking to determine the accuracy limits of the rifle itself.

 

On the black/white targets, I'll give in a try, maybe. The yellow dot fills the front globe insert rather nicely. I tried to photograph it but the picture did not turn out well at all.

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This, you will have to explain why. Specifically why would I want to introduce more human variable into the group size when I am seeking to determine the accuracy limits of the rifle itself.

 

On the black/white targets, I'll give in a try, maybe. The yellow dot fills the front globe insert rather nicely. I tried to photograph it but the picture did not turn out well at all.

 

The human touch(holding the rifle)is better than any machine, and in that "rest" you do not have the same contact or hold as if you were holding it yourownself.

You ever seen one of those things allowed at a match?

That rifle was built to be held by a person..........NOT a machine ;)

Go with the black targets....

Reload that ammo and try again.You want the target 'black' to take up 2/3 of the front sight insert.

Good source of info here.

 

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/

 

and here

 

http://www.bpcr.net/forum/

 

LG

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My .40 cal. Original Sharps made in 1875 has a bore of .398 and groove of .4067 ....

Still shoots great with 410 gr. paper patch bullets cast of 1-30 tin ta lead ...

The rate of twist is 1-16 ...

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Virgil - I'm back! I thought by know you were shooting overlapping center hits. But for whatever reason your still having issues

 

Any way, here is a trick I use when sighting in a rifle at 100 & 200yds ... put a 1" orange adhesive circle over the bullseye. Put you front sight square in the middle of the circle and pull the trigger

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Targets/PDRM2558.jpg

BTW - That's 14 out of 25 bullets in the ragged hole when I sighted the load in at 100yds

 

Specifically why would I want to introduce more human variable into the group size when I am seeking to determine the accuracy limits of the rifle itself.

The reason is shooting for accuracy is a combination the the person holding the rifle correctly - pulling the trigger correctly - ones sight settings and the quality of the reloads. If each of these is perfect, then it's the rifle. And if it is - sell it

 

Some shooters have not mastered one or more of these procedures ... and a frigging machine rest will not compensate for the negative items shooting in the Real World. So - shoot like the rest of us without a machine rest. The key to remember for accuracy is Practice - Practice - Practice!

 

Here's the bottom line - if I can shoot a 45-70 Uberti HiWall at 1000yds WITHOUT A MACHINE REST and hit a 16" circle - so can you. My friend, it doesn't happen overnight... Practice - Practice - Practice!

 

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ridgeway%20Oct%202007/PDRM2901-1.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ridgeway%20Oct%202007/PDRM2900.jpg

PS: I have subsequently reduced the size the bullseye to 10" and am putting lead splashes on it too ... NO MACHINE REST!

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ridgway%20May%202009/IMGP0224.jpg

Edit: A 10" target

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Virgil - here's an offer:

If you are coming to Purgatory, bring you rifle, your front & rear rifle rests, a box of reloads and a good set of eyes. I'll critique your reloads and shooting methods

 

Why? Because this thread is going nowhere!

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John Boy, I will eventually take you up on the offer. It will not be Purgatory in the Pines. For the past 2 years and the foreseeable future, lack of available time is a huge problem for me. I have work that keeps getting in the way. So, I'll be skipping Purgatory. Missed the last 2 monthly matches for the same reason. :angry: I have to blend in my hobbies with life and work.

 

So, basically in 3 weeks or so, I have had the opportunity to reload and shoot 22 rounds. That is it. It will take me a while.

 

Anyway, that ragged hole looks to be about 1 inch. Pretty good shooting for 100 yards. ;)

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Virgil, I looked at your targets. The best group was with the 459 as cast bullets. Obviously, they obturated in the grooves nicely, better than the small diameter ones you have played with. I see your using 63gr Swiss FFg. That's an anemic charge for a 500gr bullet.

 

Try this at your next range test but check the bore 1st because you may have leading. A brass brush and pure gum turpentine until the the bore is squeaky clean. When it is, you'll hear a different sound of the brush going down the bore

* Increase the powder charge to 2 batches of 68 & 70gr using the 459 diameter bullets

* With no crimp, seat the bullets out of the cases so they are touching the leading bore cuts. This will provide a better presentation of the bullet to the bore. You'll know they are seated out because thumb pressure will be needed to seat the round

 

And remember, unless you plan to shoot 45-70's the rest of your life with the rifle at 50yds, you'll never know the full accuracy of your reloads and shooting skills. You'll need to sight in at 100 & 200yds and shoot 300yd plus groups. Otherwise you wasted your money for a 45-70 and should have bought a 22LR LowWall

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I was thinking that it was time to decrease the freebore, John Boy. I'll see what powder charge and compression will be required to seat the bullet so it is touching the leading bore cuts.

 

I'll go over it with a brush again, and with Turpentine. Not one spec of lead showed up last time, but, I'll give it a go again and take pictures this time.

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VRH

One step at a time.

What you are talking about is called 'leade'

LG

 

Well, you know what I mean Lumpy Grits. I suppose I should not be reading too much into Hornady calling Freebore = Leade the same thing. It seems I may want to say I am decreasing "bullet jump" a bit. ;)

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So a conundrum ... John Boy or Lump Grits, using the bullets I have ...

 

If I position the bullet so it touches the lands, two of the 4 grease grooves are exposed and I have enough room to drop in 75 grains with 1/8 inch compression.

 

If I load the case with 70 grains and apply 1/8 inch compression, one grease groove is exposed and the bullet will have to jump somewhere around 1/8+ inch to hit the lands.

 

Which load do you suggest?

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