wide lans

[John Boy]

I guess I will pan lube and resize some 1881s down ...

Virgil, maybe I missed something in the thread, but what bullet is a 1881? Never heard of a 45-70 bullet by that number. Are these store bought or from a mold? The bullet details would be appreciated - Thanks Kindly

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

Virgil, maybe I missed something in the thread, but what bullet is a 1881? Never heard of a 45-70 bullet by that number. Are these store bought or from a mold? The bullet details would be appreciated - Thanks Kindly

 

Hey John Boy, I don't cast. Its a Seco 1881 and Buff Arms sells them.

[John Boy]

Thanks Virgil - Got it! I don't shoot any Saeco molds

[Cremony]

Telescopic lens is best for most things. The thing to do is frame your picture before you shoot it. This will give you the highest resolution with the least trim for whatever you are shooting

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

Telescopic lens is best for most things. The thing to do is frame your picture before you shoot it. This will give you the highest resolution with the least trim for whatever you are shooting

 

Like with a peep / globe sight?

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

So I full length re-sized my 45-70 shells and also sized some bullets to .457 and found the neck tension of the assembled cartridge to be loose enough to still turn the bullet by hand. Ya think maybe I need to anneal the cases?

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

What's the dia. of your expander?

Annealing is worth a try.

LG

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Annealing the case mouth just makes the case mouth softer and less likely to develop cracks as you crimp every loading cycle (each crimp you apply and remove by firing work hardens the brass, leading eventually to cracks).

 

Annealing will not make the case mouth any smaller, or tighter on the slug. Since you can rotate the slug by hand now, the crimp you are applying is not enough by itself to hold the bullet firmly and the neck is not tight on the bullet below the crimp. If you want or need the bullet not to rotate, you will need to get a non-standard size expander button for your die, one that leaves the inside diameter of the neck of the round at about .456. Thus, probably a .455 or .456 expander diameter will be needed. Your existing expander button probably mikes out at .458 or maybe .457.

 

You can have the die manufacturer make you a new expander button for not much money.

 

Good luck, GJ

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

There is no reason to use a 'crimp' on a single -shot rifle. Just close the case mouth so you can chamber the round.

Annealing gives you more uniform neck tension with far less case-neck "spring back" from the size die.

You want the neck I.D. about .001"-.002" smaller than the bullets O.D.

LG

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

What's the dia. of your expander?

Annealing is worth a try.

LG

I have a Lymann 3 Die 45-70 set. There is no expander ball, only a decapping pin.

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

Annealing the case mouth just makes the case mouth softer and less likely to develop cracks as you crimp every loading cycle (each crimp you apply and remove by firing work hardens the brass, leading eventually to cracks).

 

Annealing will not make the case mouth any smaller, or tighter on the slug. Since you can rotate the slug by hand now, the crimp you are applying is not enough by itself to hold the bullet firmly and the neck is not tight on the bullet below the crimp. If you want or need the bullet not to rotate, you will need to get a non-standard size expander button for your die, one that leaves the inside diameter of the neck of the round at about .456. Thus, probably a .455 or .456 expander diameter will be needed. Your existing expander button probably mikes out at .458 or maybe .457.

 

You can have the die manufacturer make you a new expander button for not much money.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Hmmm, I was thinking that the brass had work hardened and was springing back a thou or two (what LG suggested). Also, I barely taper crimp ... only enough to take the very very slight flare out (that I put in so I could start the bullet).

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

I have a Lymann 3 Die 45-70 set. There is no expander ball, only a decapping pin.

 

You don't/CAN'T expand the case mouth in the sizing die on straight wall cases like you do with bottleneck....

You have an expander in the second die.

LG

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Hmmm, I was thinking that the brass had work hardened and was springing back a thou or two (what LG suggested). Also, I barely taper crimp ... only enough to take the very very slight flare out (that I put in so I could start the bullet).

 

Rather than guessing, why not measure? After expanding in the second die of your set, check the ID of the neck. If it is not a couple thousands smaller than the bullet diameter you are using, sure, the neck will not be able to grab the slug snugly.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

I do have to say, the bullets would fit in after sizing and before belling the case neck. So the problem is not the expander ball in the 2nd die. I will go through the motions of checking the expander die/ball and ID before, and after each die. I'll post it back here probably after Sunday. Thanks for the idea and TTFN

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I do have to say, the bullets would fit in after sizing and before belling the case neck. So the problem is not the expander ball in the 2nd die.

VRH - then that almost certainly is a bad sizing die. It should take the neck area down to smaller inside diameter than the diameter of the slug! Otherwise an expander button in the second die does not have any way to make the inside diameter uniform and a snug fit. I'd first check that you are running the case FULLY into the sizer. If you are, then get another sizer die immediately.

 

Good luck, GJ

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Is this a full lenght or neck sizing die? With Lyman, make sure it's the "short" series die and not the "long" series. It will say what it is on the die-body.

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/dies/blackpowder-cowboy-dies.php

Is the base of the die just touching the shell holder when the press's ram is all the way up/extended?

LG

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

This could be a combination of two issues. I have Lyman 45-70 Govt die set. This is different from the cowboy dies you linked to LG.

 

The shell holder does indeed touch the base of the sizing die. The re-sized shells are right on the edge with an inside diameter of 0.456 after sizing, although some re-sized shells measure larger. The expander die makes no difference in the inside case neck diameter (except it does bell the case mouth.

 

I did not have this problem with bullets sized to .458 so, I think I will anneal the case necks, re-size the shells, then see if I am happy with the inside diameter results.

 

I'll be back.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

...The expander die makes no difference in the inside case neck diameter (except it does bell the case mouth)......

OK, there's your clue. As suspected, the sizer die is not tight enough in the neck to bring the neck inside diameter down to where it needs to be. You HAVE to see the expander button bump up the diameter at least a thousandth or 2, or the sizer die is just plain too loose. (yeah, Lautrec drew me that picture) .

 

You have a bad sizer die. You may fix things for one or two loadings by softening the neck area, but you are not fixing the real problem. ALL cases, hard neck or soft, should be down small enough after sizing that you give the expander die and button something to work with.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

 

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

Thanks, Garrison Joe. It maybe, in the end, I buy a replacement sizer die. The next question is which one? Guess I'll see what is available besides Lyman.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Whos brass you using? R-P is thicker than WW.

Hard brass will have "springback" and this maybe what your seeing.

Aneal the case mouths and see what happens.

I use Lyman dies('lite' fl size)for both my .45-70 & .45-90 Shiloh Sharps rifles as Lyman dies don't over-work the cases like other do.

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

I be using W-W head stamped brass. I have some R-P but I don't use it.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I'm not sure you have a bad BRAND of dies. I think you have a bad DIE. I'll bet even if you got another Lyman Full-length sizer die, you would get better results. Can you perhaps find someone to borrow a sizer die from? Or take a hand full of brass to their shop and size and bell a few on their dies?

 

Doing that, and applying a good caliper to the brass as you work from station to station, and comparing to what your dies are doing, will almost certainly tell you where the problem lies. If both loading setups are leaving the brass too large in the neck, then maybe it is the hardness of the neck. I've never had hardness cause neck sizing problems, though.

 

Good luck, the mystery continues, I think.

 

But, if you want to anneal a few case necks, do it. MEASURE what results you get after you soften a few...curious minds want to know what is really going on instead of just guessing about what could happen.

 

Thanks, GJ

[John Boy]

Let's back up and put some numbers together:

* The Saeco bullet is a nominal diameter of 459

So I full length re-sized my 45-70 shells and also sized some bullets to .457

* Why would the bullets be resized down to 457 when ...

The re-sized shells are right on the edge with an inside diameter of 0.456 after sizing,

Just take the as cast Saeco's at a nominal 459 into the resized cases at 456 and you have a round with a neck tension of 0.003 which is on the money.

 

Stop resizing the Saeco's to 457!

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

Hi John Boy, the groove diemeter of the rifle is .456 so I am playing with bullets sized to .457 to see of they shoot better that bullets sized to .458 and .459 which is what I was using.

 

So, back to the experiment.... The inside diameter of the shells after sizing was about .456, and they were trimmed to ~2.002.

 

I annealed the shells.

 

Then I resized the shells and they grew to ~2.004 in length, so, I trimmed them back to 2.002. I guess I could knock them back to 2.000 next go-round. The inside diameter was now about .452+/-.002 and this was interesting.

 

I ran them through the expander die and the inside diameter is now ~.455 wich will gine me 0.002 of neck tension. Good enough for Govt work right now.

 

Soooo, back to the work shop to load some cartridges for Sunday so I can get my elevation and windage set.

[John Boy]

Virgil - Dave Gullo, aka Mr Buffalo Arms, is a Master top ranked BPCR match shooter. He advises to have a neck tension of 0.003 to 0.004. Proper obturation of the bullet in BPC rounds is a major accuracy factor

I'm offering that your trying to get better accuracy with a neck tension of 0.001 is what is used for smokeless reloads.

 

What is the distance and group sizes for the bullets sized to 458 or 459?

 

Here is a target shot with a groove of 455 and a Postell base diameter of 459 (0.004 neck tension). That's 14 bullets out of 25 in the ragged holes ... http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Targets/PDRM2558.jpg

 

My normal neck tension for this rifle is 0.003 and the rounds shoot out to 1000yds accurately

 

PS: Also instead of this expander plug issue - a full length sizing die squeezes the neck to 457. So with your cases, just run the cases down to the length of your seated bullet and forget about using an expander plug - if thats what you desire

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

I be using W-W head stamped brass. I have some R-P but I don't use it.

 

Why?

All I use is R-P for my .45-70s.

LG

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

Why?

All I use is R-P for my .45-70s.

LG

Because I have 500 pieces of WW brass and far fewer shells, from a few boxs of commercial ammo. I may use the R-P someday. I just don't have a reason to switch over yet.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Because I have 500 pieces of WW brass and far fewer shells, from a few boxs of commercial ammo. I may use the R-P someday. I just don't have a reason to switch over yet.

 

R-P is thicker wall than WW.......

LG

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

Virgil - Dave Gullo, aka Mr Buffalo Arms, is a Master top ranked BPCR match shooter. He advises to have a neck tension of 0.003 to 0.004. Proper obturation of the bullet in BPC rounds is a major accuracy factor

I'm offering that your trying to get better accuracy with a neck tension of 0.001 is what is used for smokeless reloads.

 

What is the distance and group sizes for the bullets sized to 458 or 459?

 

Here is a target shot with a groove of 455 and a Postell base diameter of 459 (0.004 neck tension). That's 14 bullets out of 25 in the ragged holes ... http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Targets/PDRM2558.jpg

 

My normal neck tension for this rifle is 0.003 and the rounds shoot out to 1000yds accurately

 

PS: Also instead of this expander plug issue - a full length sizing die squeezes the neck to 457. So with your cases, just run the cases down to the length of your seated bullet and forget about using an expander plug - if thats what you desire

 

John Boy, I understand about neck tension. I am focused on working with shallow lands and finding the bullet size that works best in my rifle with all other characteristics held constant. I will move on to other tweaks over time. So, are you saying, bullet size matter not here?

[John Boy]

The current barrel bore and groove slugs out to Uberti specs of .450 and .456,

I am focused on working with shallow lands

Shallow grooves - not lands Virgil ... your rifle has a groove depth of 0.006. You call this shallow? I think not!

If you haven't you should slug the Uberti bore. My slugged Uberti HiWall bore measures 449/456 which is close to the factory reference

 

So, are you saying, bullet size matter not here?

Virgil, go back and read my last post slowly. A BP loaded bullet has to be able to obturate into the grooves to prevent gas stripping and the subsequent result - barrel leading and a BP bullet that is 0.001 over groove diameter will most likely not provide proper obturation - thus poor groups

 

So - give them a try and send me a PM or email for the groups produced and at what yardage you shot them at...compared to the 458 and 459 bullets Let me know also what a couple of the bullet bases look like that you dug out of the berm. If the bases are rounded - you have gas stripping. They should look as sharp as the day they were cast. Also whether or not there is any kind of leading in the barrel. Further, the depth cuts of the grooves on each of the diameters shot

 

Good Luck! And I say this based on shooting over 1000 BP rounds annually for the past 10 years - with bullets cast from multiple 45-70 molds with multiple diameters in multiple alloys. Accordingly, I'm finished with this thread

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

So, here is waht I am going to do. I will photo journal the components and process of attempting to get MOA accuract out of a Uberti High Wall rifle useing black powder. This will be the link BPCR Set 1 that will contain the images.

 

Now some basic notes: The rifle bore and groove depth on spot on with manufacturer specifications on 0.450 and 0.456 respectively. This was the case when I slugged the rifle when it was purchased some years ago, and surprisingly, this was the case when I re-slugged the bore tis evening.

 

Do I think 0.006 overall groove depth shallow. Yes I do, and that is based on previous experience with a Pedersoli Rolling Block that had 0.450/0.458 dimensions and would shoot 1.5 inch groups at 100 yards with Elephant powder. That was about 12=15 years ago when I was something of a novice. I also used a scope and bullets sized to 0.458.

 

So, here is what I have now. In the images you will see the rifle is equiped with Montana Armory sights. These are really nice. The front globe has a spirit level. I will also start my shots at 50 yards given the iron sights on the rifle and my age, which is average for a SASS participant.

 

Notice also the images of the bullets I now have on hand for this experiment. The are Buffalo Arms Swaged Creedmore bullets sized to 0.459 and weigh in at 510 grains unlubed. notice the base of these bullets are like mirros! This is better than any cast bullet I have ever seen, and the quality has cased me to abandon the cast bullets I had on hand. I suppose I can use them for initial fouling shots.

 

Later tonight, I will pan lube these bullets with SPG, then load 12 cartridges. Unfortunately, I am unable to purchase CCI BR-2 primers so I will be using Federal 215 primers for this initial set.

 

I'll be back.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

What do you do for fouling control between each shot?

LG

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

My current plan is to fire one fouling round. Then dry patch to see how clean the bore is. After that, I may either use a blow tube, dry patch, combined dry patch & blow tube or the desperate act of a patch between shots. Optimally, a blow tube but it will really depend on how clean the bore is after the shot.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Forget the 'dry' patch. Waste of time.

4-5 DEEP breaths and make sure the chamber is DRY.

Make sure you have de-leaded that bore or it will only get worst. Turpentine(gum spirits)is good for this.

Look for the lube 'star' at the muzzle.

LG

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

I'll see how the blow tube works out, Lumpy Grits.

 

In the mean time, I added pan lube photos and powder, weight and drop tube photos in the here link: BPCR Set 1. Note that with these bullets, I can put in xx* grains of Swiss 2fg with 1/8 inch compression.