double cockers

[Blastmaster]

Three police officers have met for lunch and are walking back to their cars when a Lamborghini zooms by. The first officer says, "Wow, I bet he's running at least 120 miles an hour! I wish I'd had my radar on." The second one says, "He was going at least 150 miles an hour. Too bad I wasn't running radar!" The third officer says, "I don't need radar to know he's breaking the law and the driver knows it too."

 

My point: People who are double firing know they're doing it as well as the Lamborghini driver knows he was speeding. Why do some feel the need to be "running radar" in order to enforce it?

 

If the Lamborghini and police officers were on the Autobahn, then a no call I would think.

 

I get your drift however.

 

Double firing with minimal split time for pistols is no different that the sxs shooters shooting both barrels near simutaneously when KD's are placed practically side by side. I don't hear any whining about that.

Stage writers and stage setup crew seem to like it that way for SG targets for the last couple years.

[Tracker Mike SASS #38824]

Your forgetting that this very rule is unfair to gunfighters. We have to slow down so that each shot can be counted.

 

Do you ever hear anyone telling too handed shooters to slow down?

 

How many times have you heard people who spot for the speed demons of this sport say they couldnt keep up with the shooters. That the shooters were so fast you just couldnt tell.

 

So if you want to make it fair and say gf's cant run all out then you should make the same rule and say two handed shooters have to slow down too.

 

Im not even close to being a good gunfighter yet i can run ten shots two separate sweeps, on a row of five targets, that are staggered distances front row and back, in the high three to mid four second range. Or high two to mid three seconds on a big dump target.

 

No i do not double cock except on drawing. My left hand has not healed enough to keep up with my right so sometimes it the shots fire really close. Am i intending to confuse anyone. No!!! Im just trying to push myself. In a normal match, not a speed run its not an issure i shoot with tons of space between shots

 

 

+1 I very much agree - the faster two handed shooters are just as much of a challenge. In fact at a match this weekend, one of the faster two handed shooters was only showing four shots on a timer on a couple of fast stages. We checked because we had spotters at the end of the shooting sequence that were not sure that 5 shots were fired - checked the timer and pistols at the line. All the pistol rounds were fired. We were running some larger close targets too expedite the match before it got too hot - so it was a speed shooters delight. I have always contended this is not just a gunfighter issue. With that said, I am ok with the existing gunfighter rules - understand their intent. However, I just get irritated at the focus on gunfighters on this topic when the same problems occur at times with the fast two handed shooters.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

If a stage calls for 1, 5, 2, 4, 3, 3, 2, 4, 1, 5 and the top 20 two-handed and duelists shooters in the world shoot the stage, a decent spotter could tell if the targets were hit...or missed...in the correct order. A double firing gunfighter would be shooting 1 and 5 together, 2 and 4 together, double tapping 3, then 2 and 4 together, and finally 1 and 5 together. While it might be relatively easy to determine if there was a miss (or two) during the double tapping of target 3, minus the independent eye movement of certain lizards, it'd be hard to tell if target 5 was hit (or missed) if a spotter was looking at target 1. I know, we could have six spotters for double firing gunfighters. Three for the left hand and three for the right.

 

You'd think this is a new rule that is adversely affecting gunfighters who are having to retrain themselves because when they started shooting gunfighter double firing was okay. Raise your hand if that is the case. I wasn't around to see gunfighter introduced as a category, but I would be surprised to find that this rule wasn't close behind the introduction of the category if not in affect from the beginning. Can someone surprise me?

 

The rules clearly allow double cocking, but they are equally clear (to me at least) on double firing.

 

How does a TO know when a double firing gunfighter has had a squib?

[Marcus Hooker, SASS #29384]

This weekend at a monthly shoot as the TO I made this call on a GF. After reading this thread, I will never do that again. If the spotters don't call it - then BOD to the shooter. And YES, when I see that shooter next I will tell him I made a mistake.

 

Regards,

Marcus Hooker

[stepnmud#33546]

Thankyou Marcus. We can all(me too)learn sometimes.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

How does a TO know when a double firing gunfighter has had a squib?

 

Anyone, anyone? Does anyone know the effects?

 

[Trailboss (Santa) Dave]

Why do we have to worry about gunfighters firing to fast when others can fire just as fast or faster. If it becomes a rule to show 10 shots on the timer for gunfighters it would have to the rule for any other categories as well.

 

I can think of many fast guns who would have to slow down under this rule.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

I remember when we were trying to introduce Gunfighter. A pard used to eagerly await stages that used only one pistol, so he could ask if he could load two with three in one and two in the other and shoot it "gunfighter."

 

When the category first was being tested, many clubs had pretty strict requirements because of concerns about safety. Some required several months of shooting duelist. Some required that the shooter demonstrate proficiency in a test.

 

The guns were required to be shot alternately from the beginning. For a time many clubs required only alternative and some didn't even allow switching leads. Later SASS rules clarified those issues and gave more freedom.

 

The requirement to NOT shoot at the same time was there as long as I remember and it is a fair request. Some "gaming" is fine and a good part of the game, but when folks start to actually press and break the rules, it is no longer acceptable to me at least.

 

And if you shoot such doubles, expect to be given extra misses as there is only so far to give the "benefit of doubt" to the shooter when they have chosen to push the rules to the edge and even break them.

 

I think it is a very sad day when folks want to push such limits and too often the reponce by those making the rules hurt no only the rule breakers but all of us. A classic example of that is when folks tried to shoot the wrong targets to gain an advantage. In 2001, the rules were changed to make that not merely a procedure but count as misses as well. In so doing the rules and definitions of misses and procedures werre mixed and are still mixed to this day. And several pages of rules were added including the "miss flow chart". I have always believed that that one poor response had continued to add so much confusion for shooters and match officials.

 

So, I ask:

Please do not allow a few people who choose to cheat or "nearly cheat" to degrade this great game of ours.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Anyone, anyone? Does anyone know the effects?

 

I KNOW I KNOW I KNOW! VOODOO RULES! did I get it right? huh, huh, huh? did I? what did I win?

 

This will be enforced about as often as the footwear rule.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Adding:

 

At many ranges it is quite common for the timer to pick up shots from adjacent stages. Also, sometimes the timer does not pick up all shots. And timers vary from brand to brand and from condition to condition. So asking to use the timer ass the final judge is going where we do not need to go, is not feasible at many locations and is merely a "red herring" for those that want to do something that has been ruled illegal.

 

As others have stated, we may have to go to painting targets between shooters. And that was one of the changes that hurt other disciplines. Or would you like to see matches stretched out for several hours and multi-day matches stretched for an additional day when folks can barely afford to come as is?

 

As to fast two handed shooters, the are now often penalized with extra misses since shpotters cannot keep up. Generally the top shooters understand and know that such goes with the game. But some foks are now trying to "bully" others into the "benefit of the doubt. Let's not go there nor set up situations that encourage such activities.

[evil dogooder]

So, I ask:

Please do not allow a few people who choose to cheat or "nearly cheat" to degrade this great game of ours.[/size][/font]

 

So are you saying that a gf outshooting a timer is cheating and degrading the game or someone double cocking? Not trying to pick a fight just want to make sure i understand your statement

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I'm thinking Marauder qualified that statement by addressing the issue of double firing in one of his previous paragraphs on that post.

 

He wasn't talking about the timer but rather the action of the shooter who is purposefully and willingly doing the double discharge.

 

Marauder also stated that using the timer is a bad idea (my words) to determine a penalty for double discharges.

 

Atleast that is the way I read his post.

 

 

..........Widder

[Tracker Mike SASS #38824]

What Marauder said - +1 I can also remember when most clubs (in my area anyway) wanted to see you shoot double duelist for a match before allowing someone to start shooting gunfighter. Not so sure that is still the case. I have been at this sport for a bit over 10 years (only a couple of years at gunfighter) and seem to always remember the no double discharge rule being in effect. It is there for an obvious reason and it works for me. The couple of times I have been dinged it was probably deserved. As my Dad used to tell me - if it hurts don't do it. Discussions such as this can only help so more folks know the rule and hopefully properly enforce it.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Seems fairly simple. There is no requirement to record each and every shot. Just the last one. So ... Trying to use the timer to police anyone is a waste of time.

It doesn't matter if one does or doesn't double cock. The rule says you can't fire simultaneously. If the spotters state they can't hear two separate shots, it's a penalty. PERIOD.

I have run into a couple of shooters who thought it was fun to double cock and fire simultaneously on double tap targets. P and five misses the first time and "put you're guns in the car the second time."

I've also seen several U Tube clips of a gunfighter shooting closely spaced double tap targets fireing simultaneously. Cute. Lots of wows and applause and cheers from the spectators. Not Acceptable. P and five misses.

Same penalty you get for firing a double barrel simultaneously at a double tap target.

Don't attempt to justify not assessing a penalty because the "timer" doesn't show it. The timer doesn't count. The spotters do.

 

Coffinmaker

[Trueno del Diablo, SASS#22364L]

 

Same penalty you get for firing a double barrel simultaneously at a double tap target.

Don't attempt to justify not assessing a penalty because the "timer" doesn't show it. The timer doesn't count. The spotters do.

 

Coffinmaker

 

The RO1 manual says double tap shotgun targets are bad stage design, but I'm not aware of any penalty for actually doing it.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Oops

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

This will be enforced about as often as the footwear rule.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Whatever the prize is, it's yours.

 

 

For anyone who is having difficulty understanding how to identify double discharging: You obviously haven't seen it. When you see it (hear it), you'll know it. You won't need any fancy electronic dee-vices.

 

 

 

 

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

...

This will be enforced about as often as the footwear rule.

...

For anyone who is having difficulty understanding how to identify double discharging: You obviously haven't seen it. When you see it (hear it), you'll know it. You won't need any fancy electronic dee-vices.

 

At EoT 2011, the call was made on a FCGF shooter who inadvertently pulled both triggers on a DT target.

Both hits were observed by the spotters (fresh paint...first stage of the day)

Shooter was assessed a "P" for discharging both revolvers at the same time.

[Madd Mike #8595]

Your forgetting that this very rule is unfair to gunfighters. We have to slow down so that each shot can be counted.

 

 

what is the fix

if you allow both pistols to be fired at the same time

 

counters can NOT KNOW THE TARGET order that was just fired

 

hence

shooter gets benifit if the doubt

and NEVER gets a P or shooting targets out of order (for the rest of time)

 

that means

paper targets or new paint for all gunfighters before they shoot

right???????????????//

 

you guys are gunna help to make gunfighter class go away, iffen yer not careful

 

or please

please

please

post your solution here and now, so it can be looked into

and addressed

[Jacknife]

The solution is to not fire both handguns at the same time. See, that weren't too hard, was it?

[evil dogooder]

Mad mike if you read my post you would see i dont double cock and dont condone people trying to cheat or find loopholes around the rules. Personally i think people who try to find loopholes are worse than people who cheat.

 

I dont tell people how to shot so im not going to say dont double cock. As long as someone is safe and isnt going against the rules i dont care how they shoot.

 

But the plain simple fact is shooting as fast as you can with both hands will sometimes sound as one.

 

Also as been said by others two handed shooters are shooting fast enough to not get 10 shots to registor.

 

So is it your opinion that its ok for them to go all out but not gfs? Or should we check the timer every time and if you dont have ten shots you get a penalty? Everybody not just gf. I mean that would be the fairest choice after all. That would really make you a lot of friends with the fast crowd.

 

If its about the spotters, then if someone cant keep up with the shooters they should cowboy up and ask to be relieved by someone who can. For either two handed or gf shooters.

I know who shoots fast at the clubs i am with. If i cant keep up i have no problem admitting it. Ill back of spotting and shag brass or man a table or do something else productive. There is no shame in admitting it.

 

 

If wanting a fair consideration for gf's is going to make it go away what does that say about the sport?

 

What i dont understand is what about gf's shooting fast scares everybody so much. Its been proven that its just as safe as any other category.

[Jacknife]

evil, show me a two handed shooter that can shoot two shots at one time, not close, but at the same time. As in pullin both triggers at same time. It can't be done.

 

As far as not getting some shots to register, some of that is due to the position of the timer, or the position of the fingers of the operator.

[Rex M Rugers #6621]

I have a question about the scenario in Colorado Coffinmaker's post #50. Where the shooter double-taps firing both pistols at same time on one target for a double-tap , and is awarded a P plus five misses ; if he hit the targets why would he get the misses added ???? I am under the impression that a P does not cause a miss , seems like that is in the R.O. stuff somewhere.

I must live a sheltered life , never have seen this kind of situation at any match that I have attended , and that has been no tiny number over the last 17 years.

Let 'er Buck , Rex

[Jacknife]

REx, if a person does not know the rule to cover what has just happened, they seem to like to make one up for the offense. Even if no offense was committed, hell penalize em for something.

 

It amazes me the number of people here that seem to never read the rules or the RO manuals. Or at least remember what they have read if they do read em. Easier to get here and ask than to read.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

REx, if a person does not know the rule to cover what has just happened, they seem to like to make one up for the offense. Even if no offense was committed, hell penalize em for something.

 

It amazes me the number of people here that seem to never read the rules or the RO manuals. Or at least remember what they have read if they do read em. Easier to get here and ask than to read.

 

You noticed that, too, did ya??

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

...Please do not allow a few people who choose to cheat or "nearly cheat" to degrade this great game of ours.

Not sure what you mean by "nearly cheat." See my response to Evil Dogooder.

 

...

As to fast two handed shooters, the are now often penalized with extra misses since shpotters cannot keep up. Generally the top shooters understand and know that such goes with the game. But some foks are now trying to "bully" others into the "benefit of the doubt. Let's not go there nor set up situations that encourage such activities.

I shot with a really fast two-handed grip shooter who I "thought" missed three several times. Yet, I only gave him one miss all of those times. Twice, I thought he only loaded and shot nine rifle on a 10 rifle stage. I only counted one of them as misses because I was certain he did not engage a somewhat difficult target. Sorry to say, I suspect him and hope I never shoot with him again. One thing, he never argued a call; he seemed to have a relative to do that for him.

 

I shot with one shooter who only missed two the whole match and argued both of them. I've heard it's a pattern with him. He thinks he doesn't miss. One of the counters told him he didn't appreciate the bullying or something similar. Bravo!

 

I've also shot with Badlands Bud, who is "faster than fast," many times and never felt this way about him.

 

I'm not sure what the point of my little rant is. Maybe it's "Counters pay attention and don't be bullied out of your call."

 

The solution is to not fire both handguns at the same time. See, that weren't too hard, was it?

Yes! Jackie that is good advice.

 

Mad mike if you read my post you would see i dont double cock and dont condone people trying to cheat or find loopholes around the rules. Personally i think people who try to find loopholes are worse than people who cheat.

 

But the plain simple fact is shooting as fast as you can with both hands will sometimes sound as one.

 

Also as been said by others two handed shooters are shooting fast enough to not get 10 shots to registor.

 

So is it your opinion that its ok for them to go all out but not gfs?

Hi Evil,

 

I don't understand this at all. Can you give some examples of "loopholes?" I see nothing wrong with "legally and intelligently" finding ways to "cut corners." I have no clue what you mean without examples.

 

My opinion is that no one is worse than a cheater.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[evil dogooder]

evil, show me a two handed shooter that can shoot two shots at one time, not close, but at the same time. As in pullin both triggers at same time. It can't be done.

 

As far as not getting some shots to register, some of that is due to the position of the timer, or the position of the fingers of the operator.

 

 

I agree with you. It cant be done. I dont think a gunfighter should purposely pull both triggers at once.

 

I personally dont consciously think at all when shooting. Its all muscle memory. So its not like i sit there and go. Hmmmm i can mess with the spotters so im going to pull both triggers at once. Or i can get ahead by doing it. I finish too far back in the pack for it to make any difference at all. Plus it goes against my morals. I play this GAME in the atmosphere of a time where honor ment something and i strive to live by honor and integrity. I dont care what anyone else thinks of it. If i push the rules i have to look at myself in the mirror with the that repulsive feeling of lack of integrity. So i shoot by the rules as i know them i don't double tap my sxs or pull both triggers purposely. If on a speed test i fire so fast it sounds like one shot i give myself a pat on the back. Just because its so rare and cool for me to do. I will not shoot in a match that way. I wouldnt even if the rules said it was ok.

[evil dogooder]

Also as for two shots with one sound fired two handed look at bob mundeen sp? Or other trick shooters. Its been done quite a few times

[Jacknife]

You noticed that, too, did ya??

 

Yep, bout the time I got thru reading post 1.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

I have a question about the scenario in Colorado Coffinmaker's post #50. Where the shooter double-taps firing both pistols at same time on one target for a double-tap , and is awarded a P plus five misses ; if he hit the targets why would he get the misses added ???? I am under the impression that a P does not cause a miss , seems like that is in the R.O. stuff somewhere.

I must live a sheltered life , never have seen this kind of situation at any match that I have attended , and that has been no tiny number over the last 17 years.

Let 'er Buck , Rex

Dear PWB,

 

Please forgive me for being blonde, bratty, old, or something else.

 

What if the pistols are to be dumped on one or two target(s) and they are freshly painted. GF comes up and folks only hear five shots and there is only one hit spot on one/each target?

 

I hear five shots and see one hit on the/each target, as it doesn't move...

 

No answer required. I just thought how complicated this is all getting.

 

I'd like to "sock it to the 'cheater' with 8 misses and a SOG (running for cover now).

 

Folks please don't let stuff like my fantasy scenario take our game down.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[evil dogooder]

What i mean miss Allie Mo by loopholes is that someone who goes and looks for something isn't EXACTLY word for word written in the rules and goes well since it isnt exactly the same its ok to do. Does that make sense or did i just confuse you more?

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

What i mean miss Allie Mo by loopholes is that someone who goes and looks for something isn't EXACTLY word for word written in the rules and goes well since it isnt exactly the same its ok to do. Does that make sense or did i just confuse you more?

Still need examples. I'm blonde dontchaknow...

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Dear PWB,

 

Please forgive me for being blonde, bratty, old, or something else.

 

What if the pistols are to be dumped on one or two target(s) and they are freshly painted. GF comes up and folks only hear five shots and there is only one hit spot on one/each target?

 

IMO...that would completely remove any "benefit of doubt" regarding how many misses.

 

I hear five shots and see one hit on the/each target, as it doesn't move...

If you're a spotter, call what you hear & see.

 

No answer required. I just thought how complicated this is all getting.

 

I'd like to "sock it to the 'cheater' with 8 misses and a SOG (running for cover now).

Don't forget the "P".

 

Folks please don't let stuff like my fantasy scenario take our game down.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Yu know folks, this taint rocket science! Rules say you can't fire both revolvers at the same time, period, if spotters and TO can't pick out two seperate shots, badda bing it's a P, and if spotters cuddn't see both hits on targets, badda bing bing bing, it's a miss for each shot the spotters dint see hit tha/a target.

 

Cheyenne, who's shot GF for 10 yrs now, Culpepper

[Blastmaster]

Yu know folks, this taint rocket science! Rules say you can't fire both revolvers at the same time, period, if spotters and TO can't pick out two seperate shots, badda bing it's a P, and if spotters cuddn't see both hits on targets, badda bing bing bing, it's a miss for each shot the spotters dint see hit tha/a target.

 

Cheyenne, who's shot GF for 10 yrs now, Culpepper

 

Spotters gotta 'know' it is a miss to call a miss..... or somethin like that....or so people keep telling us at the beginning of every match.