Widder, SASS #59054 Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Shooters Handbook, Page 23, item #24: basically states that a dropped round ".........may not be recovered until the shooter completes course of fire". Two questions: 1. may not be recovered by 'whom'? the shooter or anyone? 2. is the 'course of fire' defined as the LAST shot being fired by the shooter? Here is why I ask: I have witnessed a couple times where a shooter would shoot the SG last and drop a shell on the table during the shooting string. Then AFTER the last shot has been fired, the shooter would attempt to pick up his live round from the table but the TO would quickly tell them 'DON'T PICK THAT UP' because a penalty will be assessed. Can someone clarify these for me. Best regards ..........Widder
Count Sandor, SASS #74075 Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 ROI 10-second penalties Retrieving a dropped "dead" round. Doesn't say anything about when, so I also tell shooters "no, don't do that!" As RO, I retrieve the round as part of my duties. CS
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 I think the intent of the rule was to prevent bending over with "uncleared" (aka "loaded") guns. As we all know, yer not "cleared" until ya reach the ULT and are checked, so no, you ought not retrieve dropped rounds till yer off the line and cleared. Others may retrieve em as directed in stage instructions such as "brass may not be picked until the shooter completes the stage" OR "rifle brass may be picked once the shooter is down range", etc. Otherwise, leave em be and as a shooter, once you lose control of a round, it is GONE until you get to the ULT and yer cleared. When SG is last, my personal habit, if I have a live round left, is NOT to shuck shells as normal, but to break the gun open the pull em with my fingers, returning the loaded shell to my belt and the empty is tossed.
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Hey Widder......It USED to be that if the shooter RETRIEVED the dropped round at ANY time it was a 10 sec Minor Safety Penalty.....now it's only DURING the course of fire.....Once the last round has gone down range the shooter may retrieve said dropped round. Of course they still have to maintain safe muzzle direction and such..... Page 19 RO1 24. Ammunition dropped by a shooter in the course of loading or reloading any firearm during a stage or "ejected" is considered "dead" and may not be recovered until the shooter completes the course of fire. The round must be replaced from the shooter's person or other area as required by stage description, or if the round is not fired it is counted as a missed shot. For example, if a round of shotgun ammo is dropped while loading, the round must be replaced from the shooter's person or other area as required by stage description or counted as a miss. No attempt may be made by the shooter, or any other person, to pick up the dropped round for use on that stage. Shooters trying to recover a dropped round prompts loss of muzzle direction control. Once the dropped round leaves the shooter's hand or control, it is considered to be a dead round. Stop the shooter if he tries to recover the dead round. It is a 10-second Minor Safety Violation if the shooter retrieves the round during the stage. Question 1.....can't be recovered by ANYONE for use on that stage...... Question 2.....if you are no longer firing a firearm you have completed the course (of fire) right....I don't see how it could by anything other than the last shot fired. Stan
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted June 7, 2012 Author Posted June 7, 2012 Stan, that is what I thought. Thanks. But if you read the post by Count Sandor, you'll see that he (and I've seen others) have a belief that its a 10 second penalty, even if the shooter has completed the course of fire. I hope this thread can help alot of folks understand this rule alittle better. That was my intent. (STAN: I hope to be in Florida on the 2nd Saturday of July. I hope to shoot at some club close to Naples. Bring the AMIGOS and lets have a blast. More later) ..........Widder
Springfield Slim SASS #24733 Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 You can't retrieve you own brass so I figure a dropped live round falls into the same category. I always believed the reason for this was so you wouldn't bend down and sweep people in the process. If the round is right there at hand level on a table I'm not gonna have a fit is someone grabs it as they leave the table, no point being a hardA$$..
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Hey Widder......It USED to be that if the shooter RETRIEVED the dropped round at ANY time it was a 10 sec Minor Safety Penalty.....now it's only DURING the course of fire.....Once the last round has gone down range the shooter may retrieve said dropped round. Of course they still have to maintain safe muzzle direction and such..... Page 19 RO1 24. Ammunition dropped by a shooter in the course of loading or reloading any firearm during a stage or “ejected” is considered “dead” and may not be recovered until the shooter completes the course of fire . The round must be replaced from the shooter’s person or other area as required by stage description, or if the round is not fired it is counted as a missed shot. For example, if a round of shotgun ammo is dropped while loading, the round must be replaced from the shooter’s person or other area as required by stage description or counted as a miss. No attempt may be made by the shooter, or any other person, to pick up the dropped round for use on that stage. Shooters trying to recover a dropped round prompts loss of muzzle direction control. Once the dropped round leaves the shooter’s hand or control, it is considered to be a dead round. Stop the shooter if he tries to recover the dead round. It is a 10-second Minor Safety Violation if the shooter retrieves the round during the stage. What Stan said...note the "bolded" statements.
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted June 7, 2012 Author Posted June 7, 2012 Another 'well earned' thanks to PWB. ..........Widder
Rowdy Yates, SASS #141 Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 What Stan and PaleWolf said. Course of fire – from the beep of the timer once the shooter has signified “ready” to last the shot fired.
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Stan, that is what I thought. Thanks. But if you read the post by Count Sandor, you'll see that he (and I've seen others) have a belief that its a 10 second penalty, even if the shooter has completed the course of fire. I hope this thread can help alot of folks understand this rule alittle better. That was my intent. (STAN: I hope to be in Florida on the 2nd Saturday of July. I hope to shoot at some club close to Naples. Bring the AMIGOS and lets have a blast. More later) ..........Widder I agree with you Widder,,,,, a lot of folks only look at the SUMMARY of the penalties........BUT.....it is important to look at the detailed explanations to make the proper call. I don't know if you noticed but whenever one of the Rangemasters at TLS had to make a call they had a big orange book that contained the Shooters Handbook, RO1 and RO2. Anything questioned was pointed out in writing to the shooter. There were a few instances where upon reading the detailed explanations the original ruling was overturned in favor of the shooter. Being able to go off of memory is a wonderful thing....to remove all doubt by showing it to someone in writing is even better. Stan P.S. I'll have to see about Naples.....having just gotten back from EOT....doubtful for me.
Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355 Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 I could see how someone would want the live round back at a "lost brass" match. On the monthly matches, we leave the live ammo for the brass picker. The shooter always gets their live ammo back at the unloading table. I would like to know the interpretation of "when" as well.
Eastern Tenderfoot, SASS# 15682 Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 some might consider the course of fire completed when all firearms are cleared and shown to be safe.
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 some might consider the course of fire completed when all firearms are cleared and shown to be safe. Some might be wrong....... Stan
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 I could see how someone would want the live round back at a "lost brass" match. On the monthly matches, we leave the live ammo for the brass picker. The shooter always gets their live ammo back at the unloading table. I would like to know the interpretation of "when" as well. some might consider the course of fire completed when all firearms are cleared and shown to be safe. SEE POST #9.
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 The definition Rowdy has in Post 9 comes from the RO1 Page 29.......by the way Stan
Eastern Tenderfoot, SASS# 15682 Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Sorry for the confusion, see post #7 Pale Wolf Page 19 ro 1 10 second minor Safety if the shooter retieves the round during the stage. Question is the course of fire and the Stage one and the same ?? What is the loading to unloading table referred as ?? I got it looked it up loading to unloading is considered the Fireing Line. again easy to misunderstand some of the rules.
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Sorry for the confusion, see post #7 Pale Wolf Page 19 ro 1 10 second minor Safety if the shooter retieves the round during the stage. Question is the course of fire and the Stage one and the same ?? YES What is the loading to unloading table referred as ?? I got it looked it up loading to unloading is considered the Fireing Line. again easy to misunderstand some of the rules. Ref: RO1 "GLOSSARY OF TERMS" (pp. 29-30)
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