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Jeff Quinn's take on shotgun home defense loads


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I use 00 buckshot.

 

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

 

I especially like the quote:

"Unless you expect to get attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot."

 

In accord:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.40%20S&W

 

Here, they suggest if you must use birdshot for fear of over-penetration, have buckshot after the first shell or two in case the birdshot doesn't work.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

 

Your guy does have a great beard, though. :lol:

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I use 00 buckshot.

 

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

 

I especially like the quote:

"Unless you expect to get attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot."

 

In accord:

http://ammo.ar15.com...x.htm#.40%20S

 

Here, they suggest if you must use birdshot for fear of over-penetration, have buckshot after the first shell or two in case the birdshot doesn't work.

http://www.firearmst...om/briefs10.htm

 

Your guy does have a great beard, though. :lol:

 

Jeff is a pretty good authority on the subject. With my daughter in our home I just can't risk shooting through a wall and hitting her. So #4 will remain as is...as evidenced in the video it will work fun for the common invader. Black-ops, armor clad guys are a different story I bet :blink:

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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I have been saying this for years, seeing actual bodies where people were shot on the streets at close range.

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Inside a house a common STS or AA target load is all yer ever gonna need. I know a guy who took a 20 ga load of #8s THROUGH a solid wood entry door and lived, but just barely, and needed a liver transplant. That was at point blank range and he deserved it, as he was kicking in the door with ill intent when he got shot. Trust me, he went down RIGHT NOW.

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Of course opinions are like ---- everyone has one or in some cases several. Some people need to have the biggest and the most powerful regardless of the application. Some people carefully consider what they want to accomplish and apply the needed remedy. In the early 80’s a group of people of which I was a part concluded that as parents shooting though several interior walls probably wasn’t a good idea. If you consider the force involved with an 11/8 oz. of lead traveling at between 900 and 1000 feet per sec. the blunt trauma alone is sufficient to incapacitate most intruders. Even when a vest is worn the force of the impact will take most intruders off their feet. The proof, next match watch that 25 lb steel shotgun knockdown as its being thrown around by the various shotgun loads. I have no argument with anyone that wants more but I will argue that in a confrontation between 0 and 30 feet the shotgun with target loads is wholly sufficient to stop the problem.

12

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I personally have been keeping game and target load in my shot gun

for home defiance for about 20 years now. :huh:

 

Thank God I have never needed to use it . -_-

 

But the proof is in the pork ribs LOL :lol:

Game load will Giter Done ! :o

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As has been said, opinions are cheap!

 

I have "discussed" this issue with others. In most cases people won't believe that shot loads (I prefer number 4 field loads) are a good compromise for interior defense.

 

No matter how much I try to explain it, they just don't seem to recognize the risk of shooting loved ones who are on the other side of four sheets of drywall, or a neighbor who is on the other side of two sheets of drywall, two sheets of backing and a couple of thin strips of vinyl siding.

 

All they "know" is that buckshot is the minimum needed (and some say they prefer a rifle). Thanks to Jeff Quinn for ruining some nice meat to make a point!

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If I was a bad guy, simply the *sound* of a 97 being racked would be sufficient impetus to get me headed in the other direction.

 

OO

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Of course opinions are like ---- everyone has one or in some cases several. Some people need to have the biggest and the most powerful regardless of the application. Some people carefully consider what they want to accomplish and apply the needed remedy. In the early 80's a group of people of which I was a part concluded that as parents shooting though several interior walls probably wasn't a good idea. If you consider the force involved with an 11/8 oz. of lead traveling at between 900 and 1000 feet per sec. the blunt trauma alone is sufficient to incapacitate most intruders. Even when a vest is worn the force of the impact will take most intruders off their feet. The proof, next match watch that 25 lb steel shotgun knockdown as its being thrown around by the various shotgun loads. I have no argument with anyone that wants more but I will argue that in a confrontation between 0 and 30 feet the shotgun with target loads is wholly sufficient to stop the problem.

12

 

Actually Reb. this is incorrect. The laws of physics state that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. IOf you fired a round that would knock somebody down, you also would get knocked down by the recoil. What you perceive to be "KNOCKDOWN" is nothing more than a spasmodic reaction of the human body to the shot and/or being off balance at the time of the impact. Shotgun targets do not actually get knocked down. They are set a specific distance from the topple point and the inertia of the shot load pushes the target backwards and the energy is transferred in a non linear fashion, actually rotational as it swings on the hinge's axis, and it continues past it's very own balance point...

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As has been said, opinions are cheap!

 

I have "discussed" this issue with others. In most cases people won't believe that shot loads (I prefer number 4 field loads) are a good compromise for interior defense.

 

No matter how much I try to explain it, they just don't seem to recognize the risk of shooting loved ones who are on the other side of four sheets of drywall, or a neighbor who is on the other side of two sheets of drywall, two sheets of backing and a couple of thin strips of vinyl siding.

 

All they "know" is that buckshot is the minimum needed (and some say they prefer a rifle). Thanks to Jeff Quinn for ruining some nice meat to make a point!

 

And even a rifle is iffy - after all, we KNOW that the 30-30 is a mouse phart load that can just barely stop a rabbit and is useless on something like deer. Heck, even the 30-06 is only good on small deer at under 100 yards. Anything past that you need at least a .300 Ultra-mag.

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Shotgun targets do not actually get knocked down. They are set a specific distance from the topple point and the inertia of the shot load pushes the target backwards and the energy is transferred in a non linear fashion, actually rotational as it swings on the hinge's axis, and it continues past it's very own balance point...

 

You sure you were a Marine?

 

:lol::lol::lol:

 

 

Chick

 

PS - great information! Thanks for posting it!

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I've said this before and sorta got slammed for it, but it is my feeling that MOST people do not want to be shot. A few will ignore warnings and keep coming. Most of those will stop at the sight of a gun. A few will ignore the gun and keep coming. Most of those will stop when a gun is fired at them, a few will ignore the gun shots and keep coming. Most of those will stop if actually shot. A few of them will keep coming in spite of being shot. The percentage of folks that will keep coming after being shot must be extremely small, but they are out there.

 

So like everything else, the choice of a self-defense firearm is always compromised.

 

I admit being surprised by the penetration power of the STS load. I've always been a student of the Box O' Truth. It's good to see an alternative point of view and demonstration.

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We did extensive testing on shotgun loads for use in apartment and motel room entry by our SWAT teams. We found that #8 shot at room distances(12 to 14') would do the job on a human adversary but would either not penetrate two layers of sheetrock with insulation in between or would lose all impetus upon going through. Shot rarely made it all the way through. This was after hundreds of rounds of testing. I also will not argue with Sgt. Smokepole's observation on physics but I have seen what a load of 00 buck will do to a suspect. He did a 180 degree flip and was dead right there. The officer who fired the shot was still standing........for whatever reason. :)

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Well people, You can just do a google search on "shotgun wound pictures" and you will see all the effectiveness your stomach can stand. <_<

 

No way...the meat example in the video is food for me. Thanks.

 

GG

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And even a rifle is iffy - after all, we KNOW that the 30-30 is a mouse phart load that can just barely stop a rabbit and is useless on something like deer. Heck, even the 30-06 is only good on small deer at under 100 yards. Anything past that you need at least a .300 Ultra-mag.

 

 

This must be related to the super deer and elk phenomenon. Used to be you could kill one of those with a .30-30 or .30-40 Krag. Heck, Great Grandpa killed deer with a .32-20. But the deer and elk today require at least a .300 magnum, with some elk requiring the .375 caliber and beyond to reliably take down.

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Federal HiBrass 2.75" #4 Birdshot Turkey loads. I've seen what it does to a 4x4 post from 7 paces: I'm not worried about a pizza box. And it won't be an overpenetrator like buck, rifle, or pistol round. Important in a SoCal 'hood where the neighbors know if I've had Taco Bell for lunch. However, the shotty lives with a bandoleer of 50 rounds ranging from #4 to 3" slug - in case the going gets weird.

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We did extensive testing on shotgun loads for use in apartment and motel room entry by our SWAT teams. We found that #8 shot at room distances(12 to 14') would do the job on a human adversary but would either not penetrate two layers of sheetrock with insulation in between or would lose all impetus upon going through. Shot rarely made it all the way through. This was after hundreds of rounds of testing. I also will not argue with Sgt. Smokepole's observation on physics but I have seen what a load of 00 buck will do to a suspect. He did a 180 degree flip and was dead right there. The officer who fired the shot was still standing........for whatever reason. :)

 

I find that interesting. Our team did similar tests using mocked-up walls (2 sheets of 1/2" drywall separated by 2x4's on 16 inch centers and we found that ALL standard birdshot loads penetrated both layers of sheetrock and then blew craters up to 6 inches deep in a block of wet newsprint on the far side. We didn't do HUNDREDS of loads, only a couple dozen. I have photos of some of our tests around here somewheres. In other words, we found the exact opposite of your tests: we did NOT feel that using birdshot gave us any safety advantage. I'm convinced a child sleeping on the other side of a standard interior wall would be just as dead from a "stray" blast of birdshot as she would from a load of buckshot.

 

YMMV. The difference between your tests and ours was that we didn't put fiberglass insulation between the layers of sheetrock, perhaps. We did not do so because insulation is not normally used in interior walls of homes and apartments.

 

Based on our findings, we concluded there was no "safety" advantage to using birdshot. Contrariwise, there is certainly no reason to believe birdshot will do more damage to a violent felon than standard police-issue 00 buck, as recommended by FBI and other ballistics experts. As such we continued to load our shotguns with Federal 00 Buckshot until our department replaced all our squad shotguns with .223 carbines.

 

Personally, I have seen some nasty birdshot wounds and have no doubt you can kill someone with it. But my personal defense shotgun is loaded with #1 buckshot(hardened shot, not standard soft shot... if I can't get hardened #1, I use 00 buck) followed by slugs based on what the law enforcement ballistics experts say.

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From using a shotgun to hunt with and from his results birdshot at close range is something you don't wanna' mess with. On the other hand the penetration of buckshot & slugs is just as devastating at close range and way more at longer ranges.....so it all goes back to the application or where you live.

 

Notice how many times he said "if you are worried about over penetration"......to me that was key that birdshot is only better under those circumstances whereas buckshot & slugs "will" do both.....longer and close.

 

Either way when a bad guy v 12 ga at close range (loaded with any size shot)the odds are always heavily slanted……lol

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I find that interesting. Our team did similar tests using mocked-up walls (2 sheets of 1/2" drywall separated by 2x4's on 16 inch centers and we found that ALL standard birdshot loads penetrated both layers of sheetrock and then blew craters up to 6 inches deep in a block of wet newsprint on the far side. We didn't do HUNDREDS of loads, only a couple dozen. I have photos of some of our tests around here somewheres. In other words, we found the exact opposite of your tests: we did NOT feel that using birdshot gave us any safety advantage. I'm convinced a child sleeping on the other side of a standard interior wall would be just as dead from a "stray" blast of birdshot as she would from a load of buckshot.

 

YMMV. The difference between your tests and ours was that we didn't put fiberglass insulation between the layers of sheetrock, perhaps. We did not do so because insulation is not normally used in interior walls of homes and apartments.

 

Based on our findings, we concluded there was no "safety" advantage to using birdshot. Contrariwise, there is certainly no reason to believe birdshot will do more damage to a violent felon than standard police-issue 00 buck, as recommended by FBI and other ballistics experts. As such we continued to load our shotguns with Federal 00 Buckshot until our department replaced all our squad shotguns with .223 carbines.

 

Personally, I have seen some nasty birdshot wounds and have no doubt you can kill someone with it. But my personal defense shotgun is loaded with #1 buckshot(hardened shot, not standard soft shot... if I can't get hardened #1, I use 00 buck) followed by slugs based on what the law enforcement ballistics experts say.

 

Thanks Doc. That's what I wanted to hear. I was going to build my own "wall" and take it to the range, but I haven't had the spare time to build my "wall". My house certainly has no insulation in the interior walls and that's an important distinction.

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Almost 48 years ago I saw first hand what a load of birdshot will do to the human head at a little less than 30 feet...

The load in question was 1 1/8 oz. 7 1/2 Imperial Field load ,the man shot was in his 50s and was shot by his son age 14 in the back of the head after being mistaken for a rabbit .... The dad was squating in some grass to relieve himself,I saw what was about to happen a split second before the impact and shouted "NO" ,,,, but to late...

There was a hole bigger than my fist and the man's shreaded face was hanging over his chin .... There was zero doubt that he died instantly flopping forward onto his face and chest ....

This is the image that I to this day see flash before my eyes when I see some-one get careless with gun saftey ....

I have also seen a Criminal that was wearing a down jacket shot with 1 1/8 0z. of #6 shot at about 22 feet ,,, there was an inch and half hole in the front of his chest and about a 2 inch hole in his back and feathers everywhere ....

 

So Nobody will ever be able to convince me the birdshot won't do the job at home defence ranges !!!!

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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lead 4 shot will penetrate a duck at 40 yards. Lead 2 a goose. This I have seen many times in the field. Even at longer than room distance, the old lead shot will penetrate. Plus you have a 30" margin of error. A face or thigh shot would put a serious hurt to anyone intent upon harming you. This is also a way to defeat body armor since the legs and thighs are usually exposed.

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A hole in the galvanized steel roof from #7 1/8 - 8 shot last weekend.

It'll dang sure mess you up. :blink:

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I find that interesting. Our team did similar tests using mocked-up walls (2 sheets of 1/2" drywall separated by 2x4's on 16 inch centers and we found that ALL standard birdshot loads penetrated both layers of sheetrock and then blew craters up to 6 inches deep in a block of wet newsprint on the far side. We didn't do HUNDREDS of loads, only a couple dozen. I have photos of some of our tests around here somewheres. In other words, we found the exact opposite of your tests: we did NOT feel that using birdshot gave us any safety advantage. I'm convinced a child sleeping on the other side of a standard interior wall would be just as dead from a "stray" blast of birdshot as she would from a load of buckshot.

 

YMMV. The difference between your tests and ours was that we didn't put fiberglass insulation between the layers of sheetrock, perhaps. We did not do so because insulation is not normally used in interior walls of homes and apartments.

 

Based on our findings, we concluded there was no "safety" advantage to using birdshot. Contrariwise, there is certainly no reason to believe birdshot will do more damage to a violent felon than standard police-issue 00 buck, as recommended by FBI and other ballistics experts. As such we continued to load our shotguns with Federal 00 Buckshot until our department replaced all our squad shotguns with .223 carbines.

 

Personally, I have seen some nasty birdshot wounds and have no doubt you can kill someone with it. But my personal defense shotgun is loaded with #1 buckshot(hardened shot, not standard soft shot... if I can't get hardened #1, I use 00 buck) followed by slugs based on what the law enforcement ballistics experts say.

Our tests were done at 12-14 feet with insulation between the panels as would normally be found in motels and apartments. Standard 7 1/2 and 8 shot performed as I stated. I've been retired 13 years and the testing took place at least 25 years ago so I don't have pictures. Even with the disparity in our test results I don't believe buckshot would be any safer. In fact, I know it won't.

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Years ago we had a drunk fire a load of 6 shot into the ceiling of his apartment. Drunk upstairs in bed awoke and thought he was bleeding from the rectum(close). Shot column traveled about 6 feet penetrating the drywall ceiling, sub floor and carpet, the box springs and finally the mattress. From there the majority of the shot entered the upstairs drunk's gluteus maximus to an average depth of 1 inch, along with an assortment of debris. After seeing what an assortment of shot and bullets can and cannot do I don't think you can count on any ballistic projectile performing as expected. Personally I don't use a shotgun for home defense preferring to rely on a .40 Gold Dot to end any problems. At bedroom distances you don't need "the spread" of a shotgun. A well placed .40 or 2 or 3 should solve your problems. I can't offer pictures but have seen enough penetration tests to have the opinion that Gold Dot ammo does not overp enetrate any more than anything else after, and this is important, after and unless it has passed through a bad guy's body.

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Years ago we had a drunk fire a load of 6 shot into the ceiling of his apartment. Drunk upstairs in bed awoke and thought he was bleeding from the rectum(close). Shot column traveled about 6 feet penetrating the drywall ceiling, sub floor and carpet, the box springs and finally the mattress. From there the majority of the shot entered the upstairs drunk's gluteus maximus to an average depth of 1 inch, along with an assortment of debris. After seeing what an assortment of shot and bullets can and cannot do I don't think you can count on any ballistic projectile performing as expected. Personally I don't use a shotgun for home defense preferring to rely on a .40 Gold Dot to end any problems. At bedroom distances you don't need "the spread" of a shotgun. A well placed .40 or 2 or 3 should solve your problems. I can't offer pictures but have seen enough penetration tests to have the opinion that Gold Dot ammo does not overp enetrate any more than anything else after, and this is important, after and unless it has passed through a bad guy's body.

 

Go with whatever you're most comfortable with...

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Actually Reb. this is incorrect. ... Shotgun targets do not actually get knocked down. They are set a specific distance from the topple point and the inertia of the shot load pushes the target backwards and the energy is transferred in a non linear fashion, actually rotational as it swings on the hinge's axis, and it continues past it's very own balance point...

 

Soooo... in other words... they get knocked down.

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Personally I have #4 birdshoot for our defense needs and surrounding area...yours may vary.

 

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

Gunner, I thought Birdshot was a #12 shot which is very fine and #4 is a great

heavy shot for Turkeys & Geese. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Happy trails

QDG

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