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Buckles / Trophies ... or shooting in YOUR category.


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Just some quick math on buckles/trophies.

 

All entry fees are figured at the Ala Carte prices. All ladies are figured at the SO/Spouse prices. All Juniors and Bucks are figured at the Buck prices. Entry numbers are based upon todays figure of 399 shooters, I'm guessing at the amount of vendors and guests.

 

Male entries...........284 X $200 = $56,800

Female entries..........93 X $180 = $16,740

Jr/Buck entries.........22 X $75 = $1,100

Vendors.................20 X $55 = $1,100

Guests..................20 X $35 = $700

 

Total...............................$76,440

 

The above figures are estimates only and do not include spectators, camping, parking, food/drink profits, etc.

 

 

29 Category winner buckles @ $200 each = $5,800

2 Overall winner buckles @ $300 each = $600

If everone else got a buckle @ $10 each = $3,700

 

Total....................................$10,100

 

The above figures are not based upon actual buckle cost as I have no idea how much buckles cost.

 

Special note; All businesses have overhead costs and profit levels. I don't know (and don't care to know) what SASS's are, but needless to say that they are not included in the above figures either.

 

Your buckle cost are way off. Slick has it right of buckle cost. EOT category winners buckles are under $100

With then buying so many. Slicks cost of being right at $85 bucks is right on.

Top 10 buckles they give out. Buy in bulk. $1.50

 

 

 

 

Then a buckle for 1st place and computer generated certificates for the rest in under populated categories.

 

Now I know I ain't been around as much as most of you all, but my favorite annual doesn't give anything but certificates for the top however many places, yet, it always sells out.

 

Top 10 buckles at EOT. Buy in bulk. $1.50 That's right. One Dollar and .50 cents.

Nice paper for a good certificate and ink for the printer will run you close to that. :o

 

 

OH. Slick is a MD of one of the better shoots around. HellFire.

Always gives nice buckles. Runs a great match.

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It is time for you to be a Match Director so you will learn to have a better appreciation on all the cost (plus everything else that doesn't cost but makes the match wheels turn) of putting on a match besides the cost of buckles.

 

Blastmaster

 

PS: I am sure there are times when the MD would just as soon forfeit the income from "8 very upset shooters" bidding for 2nd though 8th place buckles.

 

 

Blast master , I just happen to own a 30

acre shooting facility and probley one of the nicest cowboy ranges in the south. I host

several different kind of shooting events not just limited to cowboy action. During my annual match our club awards some of the nicest championship buckles three deep in every sass

category offered. And as far as not being aware of the extra cost, I can tell you I know were

every dollar is spent. Being the owners my wife and I pay every bill that comes with the

matches, put together every stage, set every target , get every award ordered, get all the

venders lined up, the food taken care of, port a johns , and the list goes on and on. But

you know why our matches keep growing and growing???? It's because we listen to what

the shooters want and we understand that the shooters come first. I'm not a multi million

dollar company, but we do put on one heck of a match with very nice awards and with out

making anyone mad or losing money.;). Have a great day sir

 

Slick

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just saying....

 

Blastmaster

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I can only speculate from his flawed MD economic 101 post that I responded to.

 

I can only speculate from your flawed logic...and flawed understanding of micro-economics...that you are incapable of saying that you perhaps were...wrong!

 

Now if you relied on a crystal ball...as I do...you would have known all about Slick...and that he KNOWS how to run a VERY successful match.

 

:FlagAm:

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BM, your always welcome to come shoot at our place. Maybe one day I can meet you and shake your hand, I'll even bring one of the extra "Hell Fire" annual buckles and give you ;). Have a great day, Slick. PS , sorry for the FLAWED post , did not mean to mess up your great post.

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Slick McClade,

 

I apologize.

 

I didn't know anything about you until your post #73 that come up an hour or so ago. The only thing I could go by was your brief post #55. I said I could only speculate on what was written in your post #55. I wasn't the only one that posted on your comment and goes to show not everyone knows you. Obviously my speculation was wrong. Sorry again.

 

Sounds like you put on a great match and have loyal followers.

 

 

 

Phantom,

 

You are just flawed.

 

Blastmaster

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BM, no need to apologize , still hope to get to meet you and shake your hand. Takes more than a few words to get me mad. And yes it's good to have friends, not followers, just plain good ole solid friends. ;). Slick

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Slick McClade,

 

I apologize.

 

I didn't know anything about you until your post #73 that come up an hour or so ago. The only thing I could go by was your brief post #55. I said I could only speculate on what was written in your post #55. I wasn't the only one that posted on your comment and goes to show not everyone knows you. Obviously my speculation was wrong. Sorry again.

 

Sounds like you put on a great match and have loyal followers.

 

 

 

Phantom,

 

You are just flawed.

 

Blastmaster

 

I may be flawed...no...I am flawed...most folks are. Must be lonely being perfect.

 

Cheers!

Phantom

:FlagAm:

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Slick,

 

I would love to go to your match. Sounds like a great time. But unfortunately it is about a 2 day drive for us. Would be about 17 hours. Maybe we can get there some time.

 

Sounds like you are definitely in it for the shooters.

 

Painted Filly

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Slick,

 

Yes we will see you at EOT. Don't think that we have ever met. Will try to meet up.

 

painted Filly

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Guest Half-a-Hand Henri

Great replys Pards, it's nice to hear how other's are feeling.

But... not one of you picked an "A,B or C". Makes a little hard to "tally" the votes. : )

I think what SASS is missing is that 5% wins 95% of the time. If you cater the organization to the 5%, you're gonna go broke pretty quick as the 95% will wonder off and do their own thing.

 

I know FCGF isn't a SASS Official category yet, but lets be realistic, it's got a lot more potential of becoming a category than "Cattle Baron (75+)" or "Grand Patron (80+)" When the heck are you gonna get 10 or more 80+ together for a shoot? No offense intended!

 

Offer the Category.

Recognize the shooter's...

... and they will come back, with friends!

It's "Build it, and they will come", Not "Offer it, then take it back because it's slow at first..."

 

Again, just my $.02...

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Guest Half-a-Hand Henri

You have a Cattle Baron category this year! That means that in five years, you will have a Grand Patron category. Our group is aging, and I, for one, want these guys to keep shooting with us. FCGF is a great category, and I bet it fills up. If not this year, rustle up your partners so that it happens next year. I'm already working to get the Lady FCGF at EOT 2013...who's coming?!

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You can CUT it any way you want; I really do not care about wood or a buckle, but as I have stated in other posts, AT LEAST recognize the category winner. I have enough wood on the wall and more buckles than I need, just recognize the category winner. If a match wants to adjust the 'winner' stuff based on numbers entered, fine...... but recognize the category. :wacko: IJAFG!

 

 

Yep

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Class with only eight shooters- Entry fee per main shooter -$200. Times 8= $1600 World Championship buckle (Lonestar Siversmith the actual buckles given away) -$85. Pewter winner buckles times 7 - $70(?) Profit for eight person class -$1445. Not honoring class with 8 shooters = 8 very upset shooters Profit = $0. 2013 EOT. Down 8 shooters. What's more important????? No one ask , but that's my 2 cents :)

 

 

You sir understand customer service.

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What about just giving a nice award to the winner of each category and not providing any loser awards. That would cut down on the cost. Hummmm? :blink:

 

Snakebite

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So if one shooter shows up for a category he should get some type of first place award? What exactly would that signify? If you're in it for the fun, then shoot and have fun, who cares about some inexpensive piece of metal or wood?

 

If you're the competitive type and want recognition how meaningful is being first out of three or four people, or even five or six at a WORLD Championship? BTW, that might be significant if you had to qualify to participate.

 

I have fun every match, regardless of where I place. I am also very competitive, I want to be first overall, category means nothing to me. So none of the choices offered by the OP work for me.

 

Too many categories. What's next, Senior B-Western Frontier Cartridge Double Duelist Outlaw?

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Just following some of the debates here, and I highly commend those clubs that do recognize all shooter legit categories at their matches that are above the monthly's.

Lets say a club puts on an above monthly match, Annual or above. For easy clarification, lets just put an arbitary number of limited to 200 shooters.

200 shooters X 100.00 application fee = 20,000.00

200 shooters Banquet/meals provided in the application, (using the charge for "extra" meal tickets as charged by many clubs from 25.00 to 35.00, lets say 25.00) 200 X 25.00 = 5000.00 to feed the shooters and pay providers.

29 categories, (lets pretend they are all filled to 5th place)= 145 buckles, thropies, etc.

29 1st Place Buckles (lets say 100.00) = 2900.00

29 X 4= 116 2nd to 5th place buckles @ 15.00 each=1740.00.

200 Shooters packet, lets pretend 15.00 was spent on each = 3000.00

20,000.00 input, minus 5000.00,2900.00,1740.00,3000.00= 7,360.00

Of course not figuring out the people that worked the match and fees were waived.

Unless I'm missing something, if so, we still have 7360.00 we can deduct from, and pretended there were no vendors at the match to charge and add to the 7360.00. MT

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Just following some of the debates here, and I highly commend those clubs that do recognize all shooter legit categories at their matches that are above the monthly's.

Lets say a club puts on an above monthly match, Annual or above. For easy clarification, lets just put an arbitary number of limited to 200 shooters.

200 shooters X 100.00 application fee = 20,000.00

200 shooters Banquet/meals provided in the application, (using the charge for "extra" meal tickets as charged by many clubs from 25.00 to 35.00, lets say 25.00) 200 X 25.00 = 5000.00 to feed the shooters and pay providers.

29 categories, (lets pretend they are all filled to 5th place)= 145 buckles, thropies, etc.

29 1st Place Buckles (lets say 100.00) = 2900.00

29 X 4= 116 2nd to 5th place buckles @ 15.00 each=1740.00.

200 Shooters packet, lets pretend 15.00 was spent on each = 3000.00

20,000.00 input, minus 5000.00,2900.00,1740.00,3000.00= 7,360.00

Of course not figuring out the people that worked the match and fees were waived.

Unless I'm missing something, if so, we still have 7360.00 we can deduct from, and pretended there were no vendors at the match to charge and add to the 7360.00. MT

Yep, and the Gun Club will want the lion's share, AND may be trying to decide between a SASS match or some other shooting discipline. There's just not much money in SASS at the local level, the margins are thin, there are limited time slots for matches and tons of other shooting disciplines who want those same slots.

 

I think we get a heck of a deal for what we pay.

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...

If you're the competitive type and want recognition how meaningful is being first out of three or four people....

 

What if the three were Lead Dispenser, Badlands Bud & Deuce Stevens? I can tell you that it would be "meaningful" to me.

 

I've been to some large matches that didn't have a huge Frontier Cartridge category... BUT, out of the few of us shooting BP... we had a very large and disproportionate number who finished the overall match up close to the top... thus, beating MANY hundreds of Smokeless shooters in the process! Sometimes the category size does not truly represent how meaningful the competition is.

 

But... as I said, there is only one winner... everyone else loses in order. :ph34r:

 

Snakebite

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Half a hand,

 

I was signed up for LFCGF for this year but with it just being me they are not going to offer it. You and me and 3 more we can have it this year but only 5 days to get it done.

 

Painted Filly

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Rose,

 

It makes me mad too. I am still trying to work on the number needed but time is running out. Buti will keep trying until the last minute. We have I think 3 categories with either 3 or 4 so there is a chance for them.

 

So don't lose hope yet!

 

Painted Filly

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What if the three were Lead Dispenser, Badlands Bud & Deuce Stevens? I can tell you that it would be "meaningful" to me.

 

Snakebite

it would be to me too. When's the last time there was a major match with three and only three shooters (of at caliber) in it? We're they alone in the category due to lack of interest, or because other shooters were 'choosing their category wisely?'

 

And don't all three of those guys shoot in age based categories? Has EOT had trouble filling the Cowboy/Wrangler/49er/etc. categories?

 

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with a variety of categories, I'm just not sure that awards for every combination are meaningful or feasible.

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...Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with a variety of categories, I'm just not sure that awards for every combination are meaningful or feasible.../quote]

 

I do understand, and actually agree with you... for the most part. I was just pointing out that sometimes the number of entries don't accurately represent how much competition is there. I've heard many guys over the years talk about how easy it is in the BP categories and that none of the really "Good shooters" are in those categories. Some of them have thought that it is an easy win.. so they jumped in for swim... only to be found floating face down after the match! Point being is that there are no EASY CATEGORIES, although under the present system, category shopping does take place.

 

I do indeed believe that there should be competition in order to declare someone a winner. I'm not so sure that just picking a number is the best way to decide whether or not there is any true competition. In a category that normally accounts for 20% of the entries, there might be more entries required than in a category that normally accounts for 10% or even for 5%. Seems like a variable scale might be applied. I don't have a specific system in mind, but If you are required to have as many FCGF shooters as you do for Cowboys, Seniors, or Silver Seniors etc, just to qualify, it could get a little difficult.

 

This is one of the reasons that I like the Senior Games system of breaking everyone down into 5 yr bites.

 

Snakebite

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I do understand, and actually agree with you... for the most part. I was just pointing out that sometimes the number of entries don't accurately represent how much competition is there. I've heard many guys over the years talk about how easy it is in the BP categories and that none of the really "Good shooters" are in those categories. Some of them have thought that it is an easy win.. so they jumped in for swim... only to be found floating face down after the match!

Snakebite

LOL, I shoot in matches with Silver City Rebel a couple of times a month. Anyone who thinks there aren't any good shooter's in BP categories will feel differently if they have to do that! After over a year of shooting (smokeless) I've finished ahead of him once, and he had an atypically bad match while I had an unusually good one.

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LOL, I shoot in matches with Silver City Rebel a couple of times a month. Anyone who thinks there aren't any good shooter's in BP categories will feel differently if they have to do that! After over a year of shooting (smokeless) I've finished ahead of him once, and he had an atypically bad match while I had an unusually good one.

 

You got that right... I've shot against Johnny. He is tremendous.

 

Snakebite

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I have avoided posting, but, here are my thoughts; 1. I was just told that I can't shoot my category, 2. What happens if I get there and my category is back? Will I get to change to my preferred category? Probably not, it makes me want to cancel my reservations and save my vacation for a match where the shooters are appreciated.

 

I think, and this is just my opinion, that all SASS legal categories should be honored! I don't give a tinkers hoot if I get one of their cheesy little buckles, been there got that! SASS makes enough money off us to honor all the categories, and if I win something then I can buy my own!! I just want to shoot what I am accustomed to shooting!

 

Sorry for venting but it's how I feel!

 

Chula Kat

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I have avoided posting, but, here are my thoughts; 1. I was just told that I can't shoot my category, 2. What happens if I get there and my category is back? Will I get to change to my preferred category? Probably not, it makes me want to cancel my reservations and save my vacation for a match where the shooters are appreciated.

 

I think, and this is just my opinion, that all SASS legal categories should be honored! I don't give a tinkers hoot if I get one of their cheesy little buckles, been there got that! SASS makes enough money off us to honor all the categories, and if I win something then I can buy my own!! I just want to shoot what I am accustomed to shooting!

 

Sorry for venting but it's how I feel!

 

Chula Kat

 

 

Vent away.

 

What catagory do you want to shoot in?

 

two handed? there is one.

 

Costuming? can dress up anyway.

 

One handed? surely you can, but that may be the iffy one.

 

Gunfighter?? would they let you shoot with the men?

 

BP? you can shoot BP in the other catagories.

 

If you are not going for a cheesy buckle, then it shouldn't matter, so long as you can shoot your style.

 

For me, just let me shoot two handed, smokeless in any age base or otherwise catagory you want to place me in and I will be happy. Keep the buckles,ribbons, paper, wooden planks, etc is my personal feeling.

 

I see your point about canceling and saving your vacation time. There is a shoot I can not make this year (work scheduling crunch) that I've like to go to.... I still have my four days of vacation plus I just purchased a new CCW for myself in place of the expenditure on travel, food and motels for that match.

 

Shoot out of town match?? or new gun???? decisions. I drowned my sorrows with a new gun. ;)

 

Blastmaster

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I see a parallel between this discussion and the discussions about caliber choice and mouse phart loads.

 

There have been a bunch of threads on the Wire in which some folks complain that the game is somehow cheapened when a shooter chooses a small lightly loaded cartridge. Others point out, correctly I believe, that a competitor's choice of load and caliber is up to the competitor alone...as long as it is a legal caliber and is not producing squibs, it is nobody's business but the competitor's what he shoots. To quote a common statement, "Why should it matter to you what someone else shoots?"

 

Those who complain that there should be no award for only one person shooting in a category are like those who complain about light loads. Folks, it is none of your business what category someone else chooses. If you don't want to see someone getting an award for being the only shooter in a category, then you enter that category and take it away from him by beating him. If you think an award is only meaningful when there are ten shooters in a category, then exercise your right of choice by choosing such a category.

 

Shooters should have the right to shoot in any legal category they choose, and to receive recognition for doing so. Someone's choice of category, just like their choice of calibers and loads, is their business alone and not anyone else's.

 

Imposing your definition of what constitutes meaningful competition on anyone else but yourself just ain't right.

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I see a parallel between this discussion and the discussions about caliber choice and mouse phart loads.

 

There have been a bunch of threads on the Wire in which some folks complain that the game is somehow cheapened when a shooter chooses a small lightly loaded cartridge. Others point out, correctly I believe, that a competitor's choice of load and caliber is up to the competitor alone...as long as it is a legal caliber and is not producing squibs, it is nobody's business but the competitor's what he shoots. To quote a common statement, "Why should it matter to you what someone else shoots?"

 

Those who complain that there should be no award for only one person shooting in a category are like those who complain about light loads. Folks, it is none of your business what category someone else chooses. If you don't want to see someone getting an award for being the only shooter in a category, then you enter that category and take it away from him by beating him. If you think an award is only meaningful when there are ten shooters in a category, then exercise your right of choice by choosing such a category.

 

Shooters should have the right to shoot in any legal category they choose, and to receive recognition for doing so. Someone's choice of category, just like their choice of calibers and loads, is their business alone and not anyone else's.

 

Imposing your definition of what constitutes meaningful competition on anyone else but yourself just ain't right.

 

 

Good day Mr. J-Bar,

 

Interesting cooralation.

 

Point(s) noted & taken.

 

Blastmaster

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