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Buckles / Trophies ... or shooting in YOUR category.


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You're way off target. I see it at state and regional matches all the time. People jumping catigories so they are guarenteed a plaque. So I know they'd do it for a buckle and or one of those little wire trophies they hand out.

 

 

Yep!!

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You're way off target. I see it at state and regional matches all the time. People jumping catigories so they are guarenteed a plaque. So I know they'd do it for a buckle and or one of those little wire trophies they hand out.

I dont know whos off target, me or you. Let me clarify. Im being a smart a$$, making fun of those who shoot categories that guarentee them a prize no matter how they actually perform. I think you misunderstood my intentions or Im way off target.

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I dont know whos off target, me or you. Let me clarify. Im being a smart a$$, making fun of those who shoot categories that guarentee them a prize no matter how they actually perform. I think you misunderstood my intentions or Im way off target.

 

I got it!!!!

 

but then again...I'm reeeeeal schmart!

 

:mellow:

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I dont know whos off target, me or you. Let me clarify. Im being a smart a$$, making fun of those who shoot categories that guarentee them a prize no matter how they actually perform. I think you misunderstood my intentions or Im way off target.

 

Your right! I didn't relize you were making fun of that. I guess I didn't see the sarcasm in the font. Looks like we are preaching to the chior then.

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This is the World Championship. If it is an approved category, then there should be a World Champion buckle for every approved category that has shooters. No ifs, ands or but about it.

 

CS

 

I haven't seen a better solution yet. I agree completely.

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Bones McCracken:

I understand your frustration. There are many folks who are disappointed that the particular category they prefer is not available at all matches. I've looked at many potential category systems, and finding one that satisfies everyone is just not going to happen. IMO, this is the most difficult task that SASS faces. You are a GF.. are you aware that more time has been spent dealing with the GF category than ALL the other categories combined? Yet, it doesn't appear that the BP version of this category is going to meet the current requirements at the World's Championship.

I believe that the VAST majority of those who play the game are not overly concerned about getting a high dollar award. IMO, this category "Scramble" will forever be a problem as long as the "Road block" of expensive awards exist. If you are a winner and want a nice buckle... then buy one! I believe that the current TG voting system will never allow any meaningful changes to be made. The only way I see it happening is for the WB to mandate changes, or for the MD to implement them.

As for category shopping... there are many folks who will shoot in ANY category that they can get into if they think it will increase their chances of a win. That will never change as long as shooters are allowed to move around in age based categories.

At this year's EOT, they are attempting to cast seeds to see if any of them will grow. This is an effort to get something moving in the long and painfully slow category standoff. The membership is never going to come together and agree on a category system.

Too many cooks ruin the stew.

 

Snakebite

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Sass should just include a feel good ribbon in every shooters bag. Maybe it should say Greatest (fill in your category) ever. Non sass folks who see it wont know the difference.

 

Lets say the ten worst 49ers in the world show up to EOT. Because of whatever they are the only ten who make it. One is dubbed world champion 49er even though he may have placed way down on the overall, All because the good 49ers didnt make it this year. If you can be proud of that, well then your probaly that kid that was always picked last cause you sucked.

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Snakebite, I agree with your words, and I'll add a few. The WB own this fun enterprise, company, business, whatever you want to call it. I retired a few years back after over 30 years in sales and marketing and never saw a company successfully compete for their customers' $$ by taking a vote on what to do. The WB has made us all feel involved with TG votes, etc.. But, what they need to do now is decide a marketing direction that will continue to attract new participants and keep the old ones coming back. Perhaps the WB needs some help in the marketing area, perhaps not. Maybe they need to tweak SASS direction a bit, maybe not. However when you look at the demographics, the attendance at the big hoorah events, and keeping your customers coming back they should just make the changes needed and get on with it. Doing some of the things they are doing 'to see if it bears fruit' may not be the best way. All of will never agree on a correct path, but if the WB does not change some things and make a few decrees, the sport ----- and their business ---- could decline to the detriment of our fun. We all have ideas, but saying the WB cannot do something cause it was voted on and can't come up for X more years is just silly if something needs to be revisited and implemented.

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You know you are going to get Options D, E and F!

 

Here are mine:

 

D. Have all sanctioned categories at EOT no matter how few people are in them. BUT, any category that doesn't have 5 or 10 (or whatever number they want) at EOT gets put on probation. Any category that failed to meet the number two years in a row gets deleted.

 

E. Revise the category system to reduce the number of categories, basing them on Shooting Style, Propellant, Dress/Accoutrements and then use a flexible subdivision by age that can be expanded and contracted based on the number of shooters. This would allow shooters to ALWAYS sign up and stay in their category. There should be no question that the category exists and will be available at a shoot. The only adjustment that would be made would be how many age-based sub divisions of each category would be created.

 

I will leave F to someone else!

 

I'll take F:

 

Any significant multi-day match worth the trip should recognize every category winner.

 

Give a prorated pay back of the entry fee as deep as you can afford. Handing out greenback American dollars will put a smile on lots of faces.

 

If you must give out trinkets, make sure that first, second and thrid places are different from 4th through N?

 

There are a world of options out there besides buckles. Conchos, pendants, earrings, money clips even bottle openers with western styling.

 

My two bits,

Olen

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Just some quick math on buckles/trophies.

 

All entry fees are figured at the Ala Carte prices. All ladies are figured at the SO/Spouse prices. All Juniors and Bucks are figured at the Buck prices. Entry numbers are based upon todays figure of 399 shooters, I'm guessing at the amount of vendors and guests.

 

Male entries...........284 X $200 = $56,800

Female entries..........93 X $180 = $16,740

Jr/Buck entries.........22 X $75 = $1,100

Vendors.................20 X $55 = $1,100

Guests..................20 X $35 = $700

 

Total...............................$76,440

 

The above figures are estimates only and do not include spectators, camping, parking, food/drink profits, etc.

 

 

29 Category winner buckles @ $200 each = $5,800

2 Overall winner buckles @ $300 each = $600

If everone else got a buckle @ $10 each = $3,700

 

Total....................................$10,100

 

The above figures are not based upon actual buckle cost as I have no idea how much buckles cost.

 

Special note; All businesses have overhead costs and profit levels. I don't know (and don't care to know) what SASS's are, but needless to say that they are not included in the above figures either.

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Olen, we have come all this way and survived all this time w/o prize money. I'm just guessin' but I'm gonna say 90% of us not to mention the Wild Bunch theyownselves are dead set against prize money.

 

Get that idea outta ye haid pard, it ain't ever gonna fly.

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OK, here goes, against my better judgement, I'll reply.

 

Hey Bones, go to EOT, shoot FCGF. When you get back home send me your mailing address and I'll send you a dang buckle. How's that for service! :lol:

 

 

Regards,

 

Zack (who's hoping you have a sense of humor) McGee

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I'll take F:

 

 

 

Give a prorated pay back of the entry fee as deep as you can afford. Handing out greenback American dollars will put a smile on lots of faces.

 

 

 

 

My two bits,

Olen

The day SASS, CAS, starts handing greenbacks out to winners, will be the day when the fun factor goes, and dog eat dog begins. And also when the SASS Wire becomes and is SASS.

MT

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Just some quick math on buckles/trophies.

 

All entry fees are figured at the Ala Carte prices. All ladies are figured at the SO/Spouse prices. All Juniors and Bucks are figured at the Buck prices. Entry numbers are based upon todays figure of 399 shooters, I'm guessing at the amount of vendors and guests.

 

Male entries...........284 X $200 = $56,800

Female entries..........93 X $180 = $16,740

Jr/Buck entries.........22 X $75 = $1,100

Vendors.................20 X $55 = $1,100

Guests..................20 X $35 = $700

 

Total...............................$76,440

 

The above figures are estimates only and do not include spectators, camping, parking, food/drink profits, etc.

 

 

29 Category winner buckles @ $200 each = $5,800

2 Overall winner buckles @ $300 each = $600

If everone else got a buckle @ $10 each = $3,700

 

Total....................................$10,100

 

The above figures are not based upon actual buckle cost as I have no idea how much buckles cost.

 

Special note; All businesses have overhead costs and profit levels. I don't know (and don't care to know) what SASS's are, but needless to say that they are not included in the above figures either.

 

 

CS,

 

Your idea is based on SASS being one entity - it's not. SASS is cut up into pieces amoungst the WB members, both present and former. The revenue from one activity (like sidematches) and revenue from another (main match entry) go into different pots, and not all of the WB participate (share) in that revenue evenly, or maybe at all. It's not "all for one and one for all". So, I don't think what you are implying, although based on a common sense approach, really applies. It's a tangled web and way beyond my reach, so I will shoot, laugh, and move on.

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Olen, we have come all this way and survived all this time w/o prize money. I'm just guessin' but I'm gonna say 90% of us not to mention the Wild Bunch theyownselves are dead set against prize money.

 

Get that idea outta ye haid pard, it ain't ever gonna fly.

 

 

I guess that the semantics could get in the way here but a prorated return of an entry fee differs only slightly from a certificate for entry into next years match. I can't buy gas with the certificate and that is a real difference. Hardly qualifies as "prize money".

 

 

It may not fly today. Things change as we go along. Think about it the next time you shoot WB with your beloved '93/'97.

 

Olen

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The day SASS, CAS, starts handing greenbacks out to winners, will be the day when the fun factor goes, and dog eat dog begins. And also when the SASS Wire becomes and is SASS.

MT

 

Shoot MT, we are talkin' gas money here, the equivalent of a certificate for part of your entry into next years match. I can't see that sucking the fun out of our little competitions. Five misses and a P might do it...

 

 

It is just another way of managing recognition for the category winners.

 

Olen

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CS - Cost is only a mythical issue.

 

There are more than enough people signed up to populate all of the categories if they so chose to do so.

 

Cherry picking does take place and would probably get even worse if cash prizes were handed out.

 

To be honest, if there was a category that was under-populated that fit my style of shooting I might switch given half a chance to finish in the top ten. Would that give me any greater feeling of accomplishment for the match? Heck NO. Would I really think that I was among the 10 best on the planet shooting that category? Heck NO. I would however get a chuckle out of getting a buckle.

 

Even with categories that are well populated with competitive shooters can only claim that they were ranked according to those who showed up and competed.

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CS,

 

Your idea is based on SASS being one entity - it's not. SASS is cut up into pieces amoungst the WB members, both present and former. The revenue from one activity (like sidematches) and revenue from another (main match entry) go into different pots, and not all of the WB participate (share) in that revenue evenly, or maybe at all. It's not "all for one and one for all". So, I don't think what you are implying, although based on a common sense approach, really applies. It's a tangled web and way beyond my reach, so I will shoot, laugh, and move on.

 

 

Oh well, back to the drawing board. Not really, that was way too much like math. Good luck at EOT to you, the other 2 Amigo's and the rest of the Florida bunch. I know you all will do well.

 

Sun

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Class with only eight shooters- Entry fee per main shooter -$200. Times 8= $1600 World Championship buckle (Lonestar Siversmith the actual buckles given away) -$85. Pewter winner buckles times 7 - $70(?) Profit for eight person class -$1445. Not honoring class with 8 shooters = 8 very upset shooters Profit = $0. 2013 EOT. Down 8 shooters. What's more important????? No one ask , but that's my 2 cents :)

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Class with only eight shooters- Entry fee per main shooter -$200. Times 8= $1600 World Championship buckle (Lonestar Siversmith the actual buckles given away) -$85. Pewter winner buckles times 7 - $70(?) Profit for eight person class -$1445. Not honoring class with 8 shooters = 8 very upset shooters Profit = $0. 2013 EOT. Down 8 shooters. What's more important????? No one ask , but that's my 2 cents :)

 

 

*LIKE*

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Class with only eight shooters- Entry fee per main shooter -$200. Times 8= $1600 World Championship buckle (Lonestar Siversmith the actual buckles given away) -$85. Pewter winner buckles times 7 - $70(?) Profit for eight person class -$1445. Not honoring class with 8 shooters = 8 very upset shooters Profit = $0. 2013 EOT. Down 8 shooters. What's more important????? No one ask , but that's my 2 cents :)

 

this is excellent math if you dont plan to use the bathroom or throw out a single piece of trash for the weekend.

cc

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Class with only eight shooters- Entry fee per main shooter -$200. Times 8= $1600 World Championship buckle (Lonestar Siversmith the actual buckles given away) -$85. Pewter winner buckles times 7 - $70(?) Profit for eight person class -$1445. Not honoring class with 8 shooters = 8 very upset shooters Profit = $0. 2013 EOT. Down 8 shooters. What's more important????? No one ask , but that's my 2 cents :)

 

 

It is time for you to be a Match Director so you will learn to have a better appreciation on all the cost (plus everything else that doesn't cost but makes the match wheels turn) of putting on a match besides the cost of buckles.

 

Blastmaster

 

PS: I am sure there are times when the MD would just as soon forfeit the income from "8 very upset shooters" bidding for 2nd though 8th place buckles.

 

Just saying....

 

Blastmaster

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Then a buckle for 1st place and computer generated certificates for the rest in under populated categories.

 

Now I know I ain't been around as much as most of you all, but my favorite annual doesn't give anything but certificates for the top however many places, yet, it always sells out.

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I don't think anyone has ever stayed away from a match because the awards were TOO NICE, or TOO CLASSY. A world championship should give out really classy awards. It does not have to be a Cadillac, but should be more than a certificate suitable for framing.

 

I suspect it would not take very much increase in fees spread out over all the shooters to provide enough money for these awards without cutting into profits. The estimates above make that point, even though they may not be exact. A good cost accountant working with the actual figures could calculate it pretty quick.

 

I cannot attend EOT this year. I hope I can someday. I would love to be in the top 10 in my category when I do. If that happens, I would like to have a nice remembrance of the occasion. A few more bucks on top of all the trip expenses would be worth it to me.

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I don't think anyone has ever stayed away from a match because the awards were TOO NICE, or TOO CLASSY. A world championship should give out really classy awards. It does not have to be a Cadillac, but should be more than a certificate suitable for framing.

 

I suspect it would not take very much increase in fees spread out over all the shooters to provide enough money for these awards without cutting into profits. The estimates above make that point, even though they may not be exact. A good cost accountant working with the actual figures could calculate it pretty quick.

 

I cannot attend EOT this year. I hope I can someday. I would love to be in the top 10 in my category when I do. If that happens, I would like to have a nice remembrance of the occasion. A few more bucks on top of all the trip expenses would be worth it to me.

 

J-Bar,

 

What is a "really classy award"???

 

If you want a rememberance for a particular match, then go out and purchase a Colt firearm and have it engraved.

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This post and several others currently on the wire demonstrate why the WB has tried to address this issue. There is a never ending debate about categories. Every year the matter comes up at the TG Summit and there is never any agreement. There obviously is no agreement in this thread or the others on the wire. If the WB runs an idea up the flag pole and no one salutes, at least we collectively now know that idea won't work. That in itself is moving the ball forward and something else can be tried. As far as giving out paper certificates for main match categories at a World Championship, that dog don't hunt. If other categories are getting buckles and you try to give paper bird cage liners to "underpopulated" categories the screaming will be beyond belief. As far as I am concerned, the WB should be commended for trying to address this never ending debate.

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J-Bar,

 

What is a "really classy award"???

 

If you want a rememberance for a particular match, then go out and purchase a Colt firearm and have it engraved.

 

 

You make a good point. It can be a matter of personal taste. And I have done something like that...the first time I placed 1st in the Frontiersman category at the Missouri State Championships I treated myself to a new gunbelt and pair of holsters! Maybe a gift certificate for a new set from Kirkpatrick? Now that would be classy!

 

I'm just saying that if "World Champion" in a category means something, then the competitor should have something tangible to show his friends back home. Let's admit it, egos are involved here. Some folks go and shoot without competing. But no one competes to lose. Being able to brag a bit about being one of the best likely motivates most if not all top shooters, otherwise they would not be top shooters.

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Well, it seems the original question is not the subject anymore.

Yes at a World Championship the Winner should be acknowledged.

Yes the prize should be nice/classy (Say $200 for a buckle).

 

No, there should not be a category of 1 shooter, or even 2, but in my mind 3 is a race.

 

Therefore, is 5 an acceptable number?

Oh sure, 10 is better (for profits and such).

 

IF SASS is wanting to "Please the masses", and make $, seems like they could;

1. Offer more categories (please the masses).

2. Balance the number/cost of awards, ESPECIALLY in Underpopulated Categories (maintain their profit margin).

A shooter will know when signing up for (supporting a new/odd) category that there's a chance that;

a. less than 5 shooter's. Category will be folded.

b. 5-10 shooter's. There will be a nice award for First Place only, but the category was supported/ friends got to compete/ a new category is being nutured/ and if a shooter so desires, he can order a SASS buckle stating his placement.

 

When the category reaches the SASS threshold of 10 shooter's, standard award procedures apply. The category is "A Big-Boy" now!

 

I just think "Ten or Nothing" is a bit harsh in this economy. FCGF has come so far, it's come so close to being voted in, a little "nurturing" would sure go a long way about now...

 

just my 2-bits...

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You make a good point. It can be a matter of personal taste. And I have done something like that...the first time I placed 1st in the Frontiersman category at the Missouri State Championships I treated myself to a new gunbelt and pair of holsters! Maybe a gift certificate for a new set from Kirkpatrick? Now that would be classy!

 

I'm just saying that if "World Champion" in a category means something, then the competitor should have something tangible to show his friends back home. Let's admit it, egos are involved here. Some folks go and shoot without competing. But no one competes to lose. Being able to brag a bit about being one of the best likely motivates most if not all top shooters, otherwise they would not be top shooters.

 

 

Howdy J-Bar,

 

 

A $450+ gift certif for holsters would be nice....times 32 catagory winners......Reminds me of a match I was involve in here recently. We gave nine firearms away at the banquet. Guns ranged from a Cobra derringer to a Stoger sxs, to Uberti SA revolvers to NM Ruger Vaquero. Ya could say average value was $400. Only one Buckaroo appeared to be thrilled with his win. The rest took their prize without emosion. I caught on that most of them viewed the $400+/- prize as nothing more than trading material. So was busting ones rear to arrange 'nice prizes' worth it? Each of us has their opinion.

 

I've been thinking about this "World Championship" phrase being bounced around on several threads. Let us analize this a bit. About a half dozen countries out of all the hundred or so countries on the planet Earth even have organized partisipate atheletes in SASS. Meaning ~95% of the World countries are not involved or has a chance or even knows about it. What percentile of the human race can even own a firearm legal for SASS competition? England, China, India, Russia, Middle East, Far East??? Could they if they wished? To bad the 'World Championship' isn't held in other countries. How many people would travel from the USA to Australia,New Zealand, Germany to compete? So in essence, the "World Championship' is nothing more than the USA championship all over again cause Winter Range is the National Championship, which is the USA again. At least in the real Olympics World Games, just about every country has representation at the games. At least in the Olymics, the winner can say they competed against atheletes from more than 3-6 countries. Just a different view and trying to put things a bit more into prospective. If you enjoy EOT/WR/CAC and other marvelous big matches, then go for it.

 

I just got back from the Universe Championship of SASS... To bad no one showed up. Entry fee was a bit steep. A pink Cadillic was offered as first prize. I elected to take the ribbon. :P It's a joke.

 

Blastmaster

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I've been involved in a state championship match for a few years. The one thing that will get results is email the powers that be and inform them what you like. If you have attended a match and find something you like or dislike let them know. I guarantee if enough have the same feeling the subject will be addressed.

 

Gripping on this forum is not going to get it done. It's like sitting and talking to Fox News, changes nothing. Any business doesn't want to lose customers but you can't give the farm away either. Besides, in this sport it seems shooting is the last priority for most. Maybe, you should step back and look at the big picture instead of the I this and I that attitude. What do you really enjoy about this sport/game. I bet most will say the socializing, seeing people you only see at some shoots, etc.

 

Just saying,

 

Blue Wolf

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Reminds me of a match I was involve in here recently. We gave nine firearms away at the banquet. Guns ranged from a Cobra derringer to a Stoger sxs, to Uberti SA revolvers to NM Ruger Vaquero. Ya could say average value was $400. Only one Buckaroo appeared to be thrilled with his win. The rest took their prize without emosion. I caught on that most of them viewed the $400+/- prize as nothing more than trading material. So was busting ones rear to arrange 'nice prizes' worth it? Each of us has their opinion.

 

Blastmaster

 

BM,

as somebody who didnt score one of those but was sitting at at table where two did, i can tell you that i saw a LOT of excitement and pleasure in those raffle wins. im sure that those folks would be embarrassed to see your take on this.

and if that kid had been any happier he'd a wet himself. :D

cc

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BM,

as somebody who didnt score one of those but was sitting at at table where two did, i can tell you that i saw a LOT of excitement and pleasure in those raffle wins. im sure that those folks would be embarrassed to see your take on this.

and if that kid had been any happier he'd a wet himself. :D

cc

 

Thank you for the report. Yes, seeing the excitment of the Buckaroo winning the firearm was awesome.

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It is time for you to be a Match Director so you will learn to have a better appreciation on all the cost (plus everything else that doesn't cost but makes the match wheels turn) of putting on a match besides the cost of buckles.

 

Blastmaster

 

PS: I am sure there are times when the MD would just as soon forfeit the income from "8 very upset shooters" bidding for 2nd though 8th place buckles.

 

Just saying....

 

Blastmaster

 

How do you know Slick isn't a Match Director?

 

Stan

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