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How to tell if a musket is not a repro


Trigger Mike

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A friend bought a musket at an antigue auction. Its full length fits in a standard rifle case. They advertised it as an 1850. It looks to be 45-50 caliber. There are no markings on the lock plate or barrell. It has 2 triggers with the trigger guard extending down the stock a ways to hold onto. The stock has a cheek piece. It is rusty and looks old. The barrell has something soft 1/2 way down the barrell. The front sight looks similiar to what you see on most original 1873 rifles. brass on the bottum with a short in height silver blade. The rear sight is a standard v.

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Doesn't sound like an 1850 model if it's that caliber. Should be a front stuffer.No markings??

Need pics!!

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Doesn't sound like an 1850 model if it's that caliber. Should be a front stuffer.No markings??

Need pics!!

I kinda thought the same regarding the caliber. He is going to measure the width of the bore. I tried to put my 58 caliber jad and it was a little too wide, but it looks bigger than 36 caliber. He paid 400.

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UB

 

Would the cheek piece be incorrect ?

 

1850 would it not be a .69 ?

 

Pics would be of a great help

 

CB

 

\I need to be clear on what we're talking about. Is this a muzzle loading military musket?

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An 1842 Springfield would be 69 cal and an 1855 would be 58.

But There were a tremendous number of European made muskets imported during the war in a lot of calibers. A cheekpiece would not be unusual on one of those.

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If it has "two triggers", I'm gonna assume that's a set trigger. Not on a musket. Got a rear sight? Generally not on a musket. Trigger guard extending down the stock a ways to hold on to? With a cheek piece, rear sight, double-set triggers and an extended trigger guard, it sounds more like a plains rifle than a musket.

 

http://www.cherrys.com/pedpics/s219b.jpg

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it is definitely a civilian arm. the seller only labeled it as 1850. The barrell is octagon and he measured it and the bore is 1/2 inch diameter. It is around 34 inches long. The cheek piece is part of the wood. The stock is shiny which tells me the wood is not as old as the rifle since the rifle is so rusty. The wood has few dings, my CMP garands have more dings than the musket does. The stock did not look weathered.

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If it has "two triggers", I'm gonna assume that's a set trigger. Not on a musket. Got a rear sight? Generally not on a musket. Trigger guard extending down the stock a ways to hold on to? With a cheek piece, rear sight, double-set triggers and an extended trigger guard, it sounds more like a plains rifle than a musket.

 

http://www.cherrys.com/pedpics/s219b.jpg

THanks for the plains rifle idea. here is a link that looks like what he bought. His does not have the nice crisp writing on the barrell like this one does.

 

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=284941042

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Just a tiny little reminder for your pal - he's gotta assume that thing is loaded until he is able to positively verify that it is not. That "soft" object in the barrel could easily be a patch on top of a charge of BP.

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did they make plains rifles like that back in the day or did he get taken?

 

Certainly. The Lyman is kind of a composite Hawken/Leman ,etc. In my opinion the best of all the repops in terms of looking period. We still need pics!!!!!!

 

 

Just a tiny little reminder for your pal - he's gotta assume that thing is loaded until he is able to positively verify that it is not. That "soft" object in the barrel could easily be a patch on top of a charge of BP.

And probably is. Lots of old guns were put up loaded and are still dangerous.

 

There are probably more rusty, neglected modern ML around than there ever was. Its almost as if it was a cult and letting one rust is a right of passage. Astounds and maddens me to see such injustice to firearms.

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did they make plains rifles like that back in the day or did he get taken?

 

The heyday of the mountain and plains rifles for the fur trade was in the 1830s. The most famous of course were the Hawken brothers guns from St Louis. They were predominantly flintlocks during the 20s and 30s with some percussion guns being made later on. The Lymans, CVAs and others are reasonable representations of the type and have been made for a number of years. Some are antiqued and passed off as originals. An original would bring several thousand dollars.

 

Some info

Originals and copies

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Nuts, this site won't load at my end of the world. Looks like it could be interesting.

I can't get back to the forum either. They must be having problems.

Their home page

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Easiest way to tell is to look for the words "Black Powder only" somewhere on the barrel if it's there it's a repro... :lol: :lol:

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Easiest way to tell is to look for the words "Black Powder only" somewhere on the barrel if it's there it's a repro... :lol: :lol:

 

:lol: thats' funny...

 

or you can have one of the 'Pawn Stars' experts take a look at it...:P

 

 

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Would have liked more pics that showed the triggerguard, buttplate, any other mountings, and a full length pic of the rifle. By appearances of the lock architecture &cutout for drum, sights, triggers, I'd venture that the rifle is an old timer. Of what type or possible builder its anyones guess. It looks like just a plain working rifle with double set or perhaps even single set triggers from what you showed.

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My guess is that a gunsmith of that period built this gun from parts as a target gun. It is likely a one-of-a-kind. The small caliber is common to target guns. The short-for-period barrel means that light charges and short ranges would have been the application.

My guess is that, after a good inspection by a knowledgeable gunsmith, the gun could be fired with moderate charges. $400 is a fair value for a gun without better markings in this condition. The 45-50 marking could have been a powder measure added by the owner to mark desired charge levels since the caliber seems to be in the .38 range.

I live near the Jamestown rifle farm where the James family taught men how to build muzzleloaders in the 1770-1830 period. A sign there has names of over 130 men who attended this school. Local 'smiths surely had variations as each tried to indivudualized designs and applications. Not so many lawyers in those days.

Nice find for its condition.

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whT CALIBER RIFLE IS IT AND WHAT WOULD BE THE RIGHT POWDER CHARGE? sHOULD HE HAVE A SMITH LOOK AT IT TO MAKE SURE IT IS SAFE TO FIRE ONCE HE CLEANS IT? I told him to clean it with hot soapy water poured down the barrell, nipple down, then dump it out and run several dry patches and repeat until clean and then run patches soaked in bore butter to season it and protect it from further rust.

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First, check and see if its loaded. A ramrod inserted into the barrel, marked, and then laid outside the barrel should be around 1/2 to 3/4 inch shorter than the distance from the muzzle to the juncture of breech plug. Anything much greater than that and its loaded. Then it appears to me that he needs to take it to a knowledgable gunsmith to be checked out.

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A pic of the whole shebang including the cheekpiece would be helpful.

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My guess is that a gunsmith of that period built this gun from parts as a target gun. It is likely a one-of-a-kind. The small caliber is common to target guns. The short-for-period barrel means that light charges and short ranges would have been the application.

My guess is that, after a good inspection by a knowledgeable gunsmith, the gun could be fired with moderate charges. $400 is a fair value for a gun without better markings in this condition. The 45-50 marking could have been a powder measure added by the owner to mark desired charge levels since the caliber seems to be in the .38 range.

I live near the Jamestown rifle farm where the James family taught men how to build muzzleloaders in the 1770-1830 period. A sign there has names of over 130 men who attended this school. Local 'smiths surely had variations as each tried to indivudualized designs and applications. Not so many lawyers in those days.

Nice find for its condition.

 

I believe he said it appeared to be between 45-50 cal. Not marked as such.

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This has very little, if anything, to do with this question, but it got me wondering.

 

Pawn Stars, t'other night, guy brings in a Civil War musket, and it's loaded. The "expert" that they bring in, to look at it and make sure it's real, said that, if it is loaded, not to unload it, because collectors want it loaded, as that's the condition it was left in. To unload it would cause it to lose value.

 

So tell me. If any of y'all were buying a gun that was 150 years old, would it be more valuable to you if it was loaded?

 

I've seen some stupid statements made on that TV show, but that one's pretty far up there.

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Yep, that one is pretty stupid.

 

A story in my locale is that a local non-cowboy shooter had an unfired commemorative Colt SAA in a wood/glass case with 12 rounds of ammo that came with the gun that he inherited. He needed some cash and decided to sell the gun. Right before he sold the gun, he brought it to a local indoor range and fired the ammo that came with the gun! His direct trip to the gunshop that had shown some interest was met with no interest once the saw the dirty fired gun and the spent casings.

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TM

 

There is not enough for ME to confirm what it is , other than it is a civilian arm , in the Hawkin / plains style .

 

Needs to go to a good gunsmith , and or an apprasior .

 

CB

I was hoping to save him some money but I think you are right. I will tell him to clean it first though to make it safe and easier for the smith to see down the barrell.

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TM

 

DO NOT let him take a wire brush to the outside , You might take a bit of time to kinda lead him through how to clean it up , without messing up the value , if it is a real one .

Calacer should not be hard to figure out with a set of calapers , eather dig. or dial .

The older copts of the Dixie Gun Works catalog had lots of guide lines as to powder charge ranges

Hope it is real , but there are lots of fakes out there .

 

CB

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