You Make the Call

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

On a planet far far away something like this happened:

 

Shooter completes stage in a blazin' time. Except that an 'expeditor' is holding his rifle and pointing at the lever. "It's closed", says he.

 

RO says, "Yep, I saw it before he picked it up." Turns to the scorekeeper and calls, "MSV".

 

Shooter hits the ceiling, heads to the clouds and ricochets off the moon. "Are you calling me a liar?", asks the RO? Shooter then expresses his total disagreement that the lever was closed. Says he ALWAYS looks back out of his peripheral vision and maintains, "That lever was open."

 

Later, after the match is closed for the day, the shooter escalates his disagreement to a formal protest.

 

You're the Match Director and get the information as presented. What's your call and what is your procedure for making the call?

[Shady McLarry #62056L]

this is gonna be fun....!

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Avoid this kinda thing by simply leaving the gun as is...show the shooter.

 

It's not a question of whether someone is lying. The RO can't be sure 'cuz he/she is usually running after the shooter as the shooter continues on with the stage.

 

Evidence has been disturbed...no call.

 

Cheers!

 

Phantom

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

On a planet far far away something like this happened:

 

Shooter completes stage in a blazin' time. Except that an 'expeditor' is holding his rifle and pointing at the lever. "It's closed", says he.

 

RO says, "Yep, I saw it before he picked it up." Turns to the scorekeeper and calls, "MSV".

 

Shooter hits the ceiling, heads to the clouds and ricochets off the moon. "Are you calling me a liar?", asks the RO? Shooter then expresses his total disagreement that the lever was closed. Says he ALWAYS looks back out of his peripheral vision and maintains, "That lever was open."

 

Later, after the match is closed for the day, the shooter escalates his disagreement to a formal protest.

 

You're the Match Director and get the information as presented. What's your call and what is your procedure for making the call?

Seen just the opposite at a match, were the expeditor seen the lever closed on a rifle and rush out to open it. Maybe would have helped if the expeditor had been family. MT

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Bro King,

 

I wouldn't call the RO a liar. But ifn I was the MD, I would make it a NO CALL solely based on someone else handling the rifle before the shooter was able to verify its condition.

 

In other words, the condition of the rifle as restaged by the shooter had been compromised when touched by somebody else.

 

That would be my call (thank goodness I ain't a MD).

 

 

..........Widder

[Flying W Ramrod]

SASS Shooters Handbook (intergalactic version)Page 20

 

In the event a competitor feels a range officer’s ruling is in error, the ruling may be politely and immediately appealed to the Range Master/Match Director. The Range Master/Match Director will consider the appeal on grounds of policy and rules interpretation only, and their decision is final. At major matches special protest juries comprised of Territorial Governors may be empanelled to aid the Range Master/Match Director in making a reasonable judgment.

 

Tell the Expediter to keep his hands off the staged guns as it's not his job.

 

SASS ROI Manual (intergalactic version)Page 8/9

 

The XP Officer’s primary concern is the next shooter to be called to the line—otherwise known as the “On-deck” shooter. The XP Officer makes sure the “On-deck” shooter is ready, understands the course of fire, and proceeds promptly to the firing line to stage firearms and ammunition as quickly as possible.

 

C) 4. Once the XP Officer feels the “On-deck” shooter is ready, s/he should focus attention on the firing line. Once the line is clear, targets are set, and brass removed (if allowed), the XP Officer instructs the “On-deck” shooter to move to the firing line and stage firearms and ammunition as required by the stage description, then proceed immediately to the starting position.

 

F) The XP Officer does not count misses, reset targets, score, run the timer, or pick up brass.

 

To Infinity and Beyond

[J. Mark Flint #31954 LIFE]

Total agreement with Phantom. Though this is not a court room, when you destroy evidence, the other party is entitled to the presumption that the evidence would have favored them.

 

No call.

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

On a planet far far away something like this happened:

 

Shooter completes stage in a blazin' time. Except that an 'expeditor' is holding his rifle and pointing at the lever. "It's closed", says he.

 

RO says, "Yep, I saw it before he picked it up." Turns to the scorekeeper and calls, "MSV".

 

Shooter hits the ceiling, heads to the clouds and ricochets off the moon. "Are you calling me a liar?", asks the RO? Shooter then expresses his total disagreement that the lever was closed. Says he ALWAYS looks back out of his peripheral vision and maintains, "That lever was open."

 

Later, after the match is closed for the day, the shooter escalates his disagreement to a formal protest.

 

You're the Match Director and get the information as presented. What's your call and what is your procedure for making the call?

 

 

If the RO had seen it before being moved, then why didn't the RO say anything to the shooter? As MD I would make the same call as the RO if indeed he had seen it closed prior to being touch, but before that i would ask the RO what defines a closed lever and depending on the answer, I would make my decision.

 

KK

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

For clarification: The 'expeditor' was just someone taking the gun to the unloading table to move the posse forward; not the XP as described in the SAAS Shooter's Manual.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Since the RO saw the lever closed, before it was moved by the expiditer, my call would be RO's call stands.

 

Possum

[Bama Red]

I know all the excuses for using an "expediter" to move things along, especially at big matches, but I don't want anyone touching my guns unless it has been handed off due to a malfunction - then it goes straight to the ULT and stays there till I finish the stage. Nobody, but nobody touches it at the ULT unless I give them permission.

 

In this case, the RO said he had seen the action closed. I back up the RO. If he saw it closed before the expediter picked it up then the MSV stands as called.

[Captain Bill Burt]

No call on the lever, expediter shouldn't have handled it. RO1 page 9 "The XP Officer does not count misses, reset targets, score, run the timer, or pick up brass." To me that indicates the expediter should focus on getting shooters ready to shoot, not working on getting the stage reset.

 

MDQ for the shooter, RO1 page 25 Interpersonal Conflicts = MDQ. OP said "Shooter hits the ceiling, heads to the clouds and ricochets off the moon. "Are you calling me a liar?", asks the RO? Shooter then expresses his total disagreement that the lever was closed" Sounds pretty personal.

 

Warning to the TO for improper conduct. RO1 page 6 "3. When penalizing a contestant, do not allow yourself to be intimidated by the competitor. Stand your ground, but do so in a professional manner."

4. Don’t be a “hard-ass.” OP said that the RO stated "Are you calling me a liar." Not a professional response and could certainly inflame the situation futher.

 

I saw Cassalong Hoppidy respond to a shooter who challenged CH's call somewhat belligerently recently and it was textbook stand your ground but in a professional manner. He stuck by his call, addressed the shooter as sir and didn't say anything that would escalate the situation.

[Doc Shapiro]

Yet another reason why nothing should be moved off the stage until the shooter is finished.

 

IMO, I agree with the others that said "no call." Shooter should be able to verify condition before rifle is moved.

 

That said, this is a game where scoring is subjective. We are not repainting targets between shooters and allowing the shooter the opportunity to inspect a target for a hit, we use spotters to decide hits/misses. Humans are fallible. We make mistakes.

[Blastmaster]

On a planet far far away something like this happened:

 

Later, after the match is closed for the day, the shooter escalates his disagreement to a formal protest.

 

You're the Match Director and get the information as presented. What's your call and what is your procedure for making the call?

 

Isn't it a bit late to protest a call 'after the match is closed for the day, the shooter escalates his disagreement to a formal protest.' ?????

 

I am afraid the call at the time stands. Shooter should've started the grievance (formal protest) action before moving to next stage or verrrrry shortly after that, depending upon his shooting order within the possee on that stage. Not after the match and everyone has gone home. Did protestor put up the $$'s for protest fee?

 

 

Granted, gun boy shouldn't have picked up the firearm. Would be nice to have interviewed all parties immediately before making a final decision as a MD.

[Blastmaster]

Yet another reason why nothing should be moved off the stage until the shooter is finished.

 

IMO, I agree with the others that said "no call." Shooter should be able to verify condition before rifle is moved.

 

That said, this is a game where scoring is subjective. We are not repainting targets between shooters and allowing the shooter the opportunity to inspect a target for a hit, we use spotters to decide hits/misses. Humans are fallible. We make mistakes.

 

 

We don't have instant replay on a shooter sweeping someone and earning a penalty.

 

Only takes one to call a safety or procedural, but always good to make sure the person is very sure in their call.

[Snakebite]

If the shooter was going to appeal the call, he should have made it clear BEFORE he left the stage. If I had been MD, the call would stand.

 

When I am the Posse Leader, or the T.O., I always tell the posse to NOT touch ANY gun that is going to receive a penalty call. I don't care what the Stage Scenario says about "Expediting"... if there is a hull, a empty, a live round, a closed lever.. etc, etc.... DON'T TOUCH IT... point it out to the T.O., who will show it to the shooter. END OF STORY.

 

Snakebite

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

If the RO had seen it before being moved, then why didn't the RO say anything to the shooter? KK

This enters into my thinking..

Why didn't the RO tell the shooter before he picked up the next firearm?

 

Saying so afterwards?? to me.. firearm has been tampered with... No call..

 

Rance

 

Don't know about proper time to dispute call..

If he was too late... shame on the shooter..

[Church Key, SASS # 33713]

I like the Wild Bunch approach on this topic:

 

" Once the shooter stages their firearms on the firing line, the shooter shall be the only person to move their firearms from the firing line to the unloading table."

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Total agreement with Phantom. Though this is not a court room, when you destroy evidence, the other party is entitled to the presumption that the evidence would have favored them.

 

No call.

Hi J. Mark,

 

I like the way you "talk" and agree, no tampering with the evidence.

 

Snakebite, has provided the "common sense" answer to this type of problem. I'm sure that not expediting one shooter's gun would not slow the posse down as much as the ruckus that ensued in the OP.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

This enters into my thinking..

Why didn't the RO tell the shooter before he picked up the next firearm?

 

Saying so afterwards?? to me.. firearm has been tampered with... No call..

 

Rance

 

Don't know about proper time to dispute call..

If he was too late... shame on the shooter..

Have you ever run a timer on someone shooting sub-20 stages? Oftentimes it's just too fast to call the shooter back.

 

There is NO evidence from the OP indicating that the firearm was "tampered with". Let's not cast aspersions when there is no evidence of it. The "gun boy" (thanks Blastmaster) simply picked it up to carry it to the ULT.

 

Further, while it may be your preference that your guns NEVER BE TOUCHED, I can tell you that on any big movement stage out west (and including WR and EOT) the PM may give specific instructions to move the guns to the ULT. With a tip o' the hat to Snakebite and others who specifically caution "in the event...." instructions.

[Stump Water]

Shooter waited to late to lodge formal protest, therefore the call stands.

 

Had the shooter protested immediately, contaminated evidence, no call.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Since the RO saw it, the MSV should stand.

Now about the shooter hitting the ceiling, I would have to think about and MDQ, no interpersonal conflicts.

Except this is a protest situation not an interpersonal conflict. Really.

 

So MSV stands. I would be outraged too that my rifle was moved before being shown to me as a MSV. So no MDQ

 

As Snakebite says;

I always tell the posse to NOT touch ANY gun that is going to receive a penalty call.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

This enters into my thinking..

Why didn't the RO tell the shooter before he picked up the next firearm?

 

Saying so afterwards?? to me.. firearm has been tampered with... No call..

 

Rance

 

Don't know about proper time to dispute call..

If he was too late... shame on the shooter..

 

Rance,

I don't know which gun was next, but if it was pistol, by the time an RO could see the lever closed and verbalize, a semi-fast shooter will already have a pistol out and cocked. At that point the best thing an RO can do is keep their mouth shut.

 

Yes, the gun should not have been handled, but the shooter was wrong to pitch a fit.

 

Possum

[Blastmaster]

Have you ever run a timer on someone shooting sub-20 stages? Oftentimes it's just too fast to call the shooter back.

 

 

Anybody shooting sub-20 stages isn't looking back to see if lever is open closed, whatever (see your original post stating the shooters protest said he did). He is hauling butt to next gun, and no TO/RO can begin to keep up or say anything before shooter is at next gun, gun cocked and lead is flying. Either the shooter is successful in his quest for low score, or he piles it up with a penalty. Besides, the TO is not obigated to give any coaching to a shooter.

 

Not being there, not witnessing how vigorously he was protesting, it indicates the shooter may have been trying to bully his way out of the penalty. Not good and there are shooters like that.

 

MD needs to pick the very best RO's for each posse he can, and if you are a RO, be careful whom you pass the timer off to so when a potential bully shooter comes along, he (TO) is not intimadated.

 

Just a view from my saddle.

 

Blastmaster

[Shooting Bull]

Anybody shooting sub-20 stages isn't looking back to see if lever is open closed, whatever (see your original post stating the shooters protest said he did). He is hauling butt to next gun, and no TO/RO can't begin to keep up or say anything before shooter is at next gun, gun cocked and lead is flying.

 

 

If I was the Match Director I certainly wouldn't call the TO/RO a liar BUT, this is the exact reason I'd have some doubt in my head. If the shooter was that fast, the TO would be struggling just to keep up with him. I find it hard to believe he'd be able to definitively say the lever was completely closed without taking a second look. In this case though, a second look wasn't possible because the rifle had been moved.

 

BOD goes to the shooter.

 

(But after removing that penalty I'd drop the hammer on him for the outburst. )

[Blastmaster]

If I was the Match Director I certainly wouldn't call the TO/RO a liar BUT, this is the exact reason I'd have some doubt in my head. If the shooter was that fast, the TO would be struggling just to keep up with him. I find it hard to believe he'd be able to definitively say the lever was completely closed without taking a second look. In this case though, a second look wasn't possible because the rifle had been moved.

 

BOD goes to the shooter.

 

(But after removing that penalty I'd drop the hammer on him for the outburst. )

 

Depends on TO and if TO is looking at the firearm at all times and not down range looking for hits/misses. Most TO's can keep up but not quick enough to verbally stop the shooter and have him retreat back to firearm to make safe,,,, before fast shooter gets to next firearm.

 

 

 

You just called your TO/RO a liar if you give BOD to shooter AND if the TO was very possitive about his call. Be it a closed action or if the call was the shooter sweeping someone or breaking the 170 rule just for a moment. Now if you could interview all parties immediately after, perhaps that would shed better light on the subject.

 

Anyway Phil, the protest was put in wayyyyyy late.

 

No one has stated if protestor put up the $$$'s in protest fees. If he didn't and there was a written policy at match, then he is really blowing smoke and not worth even considering..

 

BTW, drop the hammer on his outburst? What would that be? The match could have been over by the way the OP stated things. Further, who would you believe? The TO that you didn't trust?

 

Your call!

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

If I was the Match Director I certainly wouldn't call the TO/RO a liar BUT, this is the exact reason I'd have some doubt in my head. If the shooter was that fast, the TO would be struggling just to keep up with him. I find it hard to believe he'd be able to definitively say the lever was completely closed without taking a second look. In this case though, a second look wasn't possible because the rifle had been moved.

 

BOD goes to the shooter.

 

(But after removing that penalty I'd drop the hammer on him for the outburst. )

You make a good point here Philly ......I'm gonna have to agree with ya. Good Luck

 

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Shooting Bull]

You just called your TO/RO a liar if you give BOD to shooter AND if the TO was very possitive about his call. Be it a closed action or if the call was the shooter sweeping someone or breaking the 170 rule just for a moment. Now if you could interview all parties immediately after, perhaps that would shed better light on the subject.

 

That's a very good point. One I actually edited out of my original reply. I'd have grilled the TO up one side and down the other. If he was adamant about seeing a fully closed lever I'd have to let the penalty stand.

 

Anyway Phil, the protest was put in wayyyyyy late.

 

COMPLETELY agree. The whole issue is rather moot since the protest wasn't made in time. I think our friend Brother King is just trying to stirr the pot.

 

 

BTW, drop the hammer on his outburst? What would that be? The match could have been over by the way the OP stated things. Further, who would you believe? The TO that you didn't trust?

 

Your call!

 

That's just me talking big behind the cover of a computer screen.

[Jacknife]

The main question would be just how "open" or "closed" was the lever. After someone else handled the gun, they contaminated the crime scene. No call.

 

Wonder if shooter and RO were shooting in the same category?

[Max Montana, SASS #23907]

It goes without saying, but should always be re-affirmed about not touching a gun under penalty. But, when it does happen...

 

Many penalty calls are not possible to review afterwards by the shooter, such as, breaking the 170. This minor safety call doesn't require review by the shooter either. It simply requires a spotter or T/O that sees it to make the call.

 

As match director, with a timely and properly presented "protest", I would give the ones calling for the penalty to affirm they wish to stick with the call being as they saw it and then I would stand behind their call. IF the T/O saw it, and it was so, then the penalty was earned.

 

In my questioning of the the T/O, I would determine how sure he was of WHEN he saw it closed(prior to being touched?) and definitely closed(not open a very little bit). If that person is that sure of his call then I can stand behind it. SO, should the shooter.

 

On the other side of the coin, as the T/O, I wouldn't make the MSV call without being able to substantiate what I "thought" I saw in the heat of combat!

 

Don't touch a gun under penalty unless it is compromising safety.

[Utah Bob #35998]

For clarification: The 'expeditor' was just someone taking the gun to the unloading table to move the posse forward; not the XP as described in the SAAS Shooter's Manual.

 

Thanks. I thought I missed a memo.

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

well, the RO and the "expediter seen it and the RO called it an MSV. Just like when you don't see the miss and the counters call a miss. In as far as a participant "Shooter hits the ceiling, heads to the clouds and ricochets off the moon", this kind of tantrum should not be tolerated, and IMHO, never be rewarded with a concession of any kind.

[Anvil Al #59168]

I don't care what call was made.

Don't come to me with it hours after the dang match is over.

Should have done it at the time and then I would hear him out.

[Frederick Jackson Turner]

Though this is not a court room, when you destroy evidence, the other party is entitled to the presumption that the evidence would have favored them.

 

No call.

 

Expeditor needs to know, as Max Montana points out: Don't touch a gun under penalty unless it is compromising safety.

 

Cheers,

Jackson

[Captain Bill Burt]

Have you ever run a timer on someone shooting sub-20 stages? Oftentimes it's just too fast to call the shooter back.

 

There is NO evidence from the OP indicating that the firearm was "tampered with". Let's not cast aspersions when there is no evidence of it. The "gun boy" (thanks Blastmaster) simply picked it up to carry it to the ULT.

 

Further, while it may be your preference that your guns NEVER BE TOUCHED, I can tell you that on any big movement stage out west (and including WR and EOT) the PM may give specific instructions to move the guns to the ULT. With a tip o' the hat to Snakebite and others who specifically caution "in the event...." instructions.

If the match is that big, and the time saved is that important, then the shooter's investment in the match is probably significant as well. IMO, if the PM is going to give those instructions it should be with the understanding that no adverse calls will be made based on the status of firearms handled by anyone other than the shooter.