When Did Our Enmity with the French Begin?

[el Gato Gordo - SASS #15162]

I think one needs to look a bit farther back than DeGaulle.

 

The French helped us defeat the British during the American Revolution. In fact, the victory at Yorktown would not have been possible without Admiral DeGrasse's victorious fleet acton against the British off the Virginia Capes, that prevented relief of Cornwallis's besieged army. Nor was it possible without Rochambeau's French Army and artillery.

 

In the Treaty of 1778 the United States and France pledged mutual aid. But when France went to war against Britain in 1793, the US declared neutrality, and in 1795 the Jay Treaty with England moved the US closer in it's relations with Britain. This led to an undeclared Naval War with France. This is the way we honor our treaty obligations? Too often true.

 

Beyond that, we have the annoying habit of succeeding (or ASSUMING we can succeed) where France has failed:

 

We built the Panama Canal, after the French failed.

 

We tipped the balance in WW I, and broke the stalemate.

 

We again tipped the balance in WW II. Many French felt ashamed that Germany rolled over them so quickly and easily, and of the survivalist deal that Petain struck with the Nazis. Not a comfortable feeling to harbor, especially when American tourist start visiting la belle France after the war expecting the French to fall all over themselves in gratitude.

 

We assumed that we would succeed in Viet Nam, after the French pulled out in 1956.

 

As for the two World Wars, there is an old saying that the surest way to lose a friend is to loan him money. Those were the international equivalent.

 

Plenty of reasons for the French to have no love for Americans.

 

 

Not a francophile,

just tired of simple answers, sometimes.

 

Buena suerte,

eGG

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

HTH, my point was not about how far but rather you said in post 24 that the planes flew from spain. They were flying from England; RAF Upper Heyford, and RAF Lakenheath. The FB-111, EF-111 ravens, and the KC135s all flew from England.

Here is your text.

In 1986 when the Air Force struck Libya the cowardly frogs refused permission for fighter jets flying from Spain to fly over France forcing the pilots to take a long detour because they were afraid of muslim retaliation.

From Spain a plane would not really need to overfly France to get to Libya.

That was my point.

 

As for Wikipedia, I trust them about 70 - 80%. I like to find other sources that say something.

But in this case they have it right. According to sources other than wikipedia, denial of overflight of france added about 1300 nm each way.

 

 

ElDorado Canyon Globalsecurity

 

ElDorado Canyon AirForce Magazine

[Henry T Harrison]

HTH, my point was not about how far but rather you said in post 24 that the planes flew from spain. They were flying from England; RAF Upper Heyford, and RAF Lakenheath. The FB-111, EF-111 ravens, and the KC135s all flew from England.

Here is your text.

 

From Spain a plane would not really need to overfly France to get to Libya.

That was my point.

 

As for Wikipedia, I trust them about 70 - 80%. I like to find other sources that say something.

But in this case they have it right. According to sources other than wikipedia, denial of overflight of france added about 1300 nm each way.

 

 

ElDorado Canyon Globalsecurity

 

ElDorado Canyon AirForce Magazine

 

I stand humbly corrected

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hello,

 

I've thought about this thread since it started and finally feel like posting.

 

Some of this thread has been educational, some of it has been offensive.

 

I don't know many French folks; just three shooters that I can think of. They are all nice folks. We should not be making comments about an entire country of folks based on the actions of a few.

 

Regards,

 

Allie "who thinks Xenophobic comments belong in private conversations not on the Wire, ditto Religion and Politics" Mo

[Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680]

In 1986 when the Air Force struck Libya the cowardly frogs refused permission for fighter jets flying from Spain to fly over France forcing the pilots to take a long detour because they were afraid of muslim retaliation.

Just in case anybody's interested, the reason the overflight was denied was because it would have violated an existing treaty between them and Chad.

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

Just in case anybody's interested, the reason the overflight was denied was because it would have violated an existing treaty between them and Chad.

 

Oh yeah, they certainly didn't want to tee off a global superpower like Chad ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chad

 

Here's a good article about the Libyan raid ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Libya_(1986)

 

In an ironic twist, one errant bomb almost hit the French embassy in Tripoli.

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

The Legion! Correctly named the French FOREIGN LEGION as it is made up of all nationalities and is not allowed on french soil.

 

No longer true. From Wikipedia;

 

Previously, the legion was not stationed in mainland France except in

wartime. Until 1962, the Foreign Legion headquarters was located in Sidi Bel

Abbès, Algeria. Nowadays, some units of the Légion are in Corsica or overseas

possessions (mainly in French Guiana, guarding Guiana Space Centre), while the

rest are in the south of mainland France. Current headquarters is in Aubagne,

France, just outside Marseille.

 

Mainland France

 

1st Foreign Regiment (1e RE), based in Aubagne

2nd Foreign Infantry Regiment (2e REI), based in Nîmes

4th Foreign Regiment (4e RE), based in Castelnaudary (training)

1st Foreign Cavalry Regiment (1e REC), based in Orange, Vaucluse (armoured

troops)

1st Foreign Engineer Regiment (1e REG), based in Laudun

2nd Foreign Engineer Regiment (2e REG), based in St Christol

Corsica

 

2nd Foreign Parachute Regiment (2e REP), based in Calvi,

Corsica

French Overseas Territories and Overseas Collectives

 

3rd Foreign Infantry Regiment (3e REI), based in French Guiana

Foreign Legion Detachment in Mayotte (DLEM)

Arabian Peninsula

 

13th Foreign Legion Demi-Brigade (13 DBLE), based in United Arab Emirates,

formerly in Africa (Djibouti).

 

 

 

 

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

We have no "enmity" with the French. The fact that some Yanks (most of whom have never been to France) don't like the French, and that the French sometimes exhibit a cultural anti-Americanism, hardly makes us "enemies". How can you be enemies with a country you've never fought a war against, and which has been an ally most of the time in our history?

 

France is a beautiful country, French is a beautiful language, and no nation has better food and wine, with the possible exception of northern Italy.....

 

I've only been to France a few times, and my French is 2nd-year college level only, but I consider it a great country. "Different" hardly gives rise to "enmity".

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

By one definition "Enmity" is not the best word to describe the sometimes trying relation between the nation of France and some others. Enmity is too strong a word.

Yes, France is a beautiful country with good food and wine. Yes, I have been there several times as well as Germany, Italy and Japan (Hiroshima). What creates a sense of "difficulty" with the nation of France, is their behaviour during military missions such as Operation ElDorado Canyon where all the USA Military needed was permission to overfly France on the way to and from a territory of a nation that sponsored terrorism. The thing that many wanted a country that aspires to be a world leading country to do is to take a stance against Terrorism. The French government obviously was trying to avoid problems with muslims and attacks by terrorists. Harbouring Ayatollah Khomeini during the Shahs reign certainly bodes well for how many sides of an issue you can be on and take no responsible stance. Avoid problems with muslims. Play a supporting role for terrorism OR at least tolerate the elements of terrorism.

 

But face the facts there is a sense of "difficulty" (I chose that word to be used in its broadest sense ranging from picuyne (sp) things to almost enmity) between the nation of France and others. It is generally an attitude of contempt for the rest of the world. IE France is a superior country and all others are inferior. To a traveller think about how you feel when you attempt to speak the native language and they laugh at you. Yes it happened to me.

Is that nice?

 

 

 

 

Chicken Rustler could you provide some further evidence of the treaty with Chad wrt overflight of France and Eldorado canyon.

Chad would not exactly be overflown during such a mission. Nor would it have been a target. So the terms must have have included materials/concepts outside of France and Chad.

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

But face the facts there is a sense of "difficulty" (I chose that word to be used in its broadest sense ranging from picuyne (sp) things to almost enmity) between the nation of France and others. It is generally an attitude of contempt for the rest of the world. IE France is a superior country and all others are inferior. To a traveller think about how you feel when you attempt to speak the native language and they laugh at you. Yes it happened to me.

Is that nice?

 

 

"Difficulty", no doubt. There are many people here who think that America is a "superior country and all others are inferior", so this attitude is common enough lots of places.

 

Personally, I've never been laughed at when I've used my poor French; just the contrary. But then, there are rude people everywhere. Americans tend to think that everybody should speak English.

[Utah Bob #35998]

Hello,

 

I've thought about this thread since it started and finally feel like posting.

 

Some of this thread has been educational, some of it has been offensive.

 

I don't know many French folks; just three shooters that I can think of. They are all nice folks. We should not be making comments about an entire country of folks based on the actions of a few.

 

Regards,

 

Allie "who thinks Xenophobic comments belong in private conversations not on the Wire, ditto Religion and Politics" Mo

 

But Allie, xenophobia is second only to baseball as the national pastime.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Had some good French Wine with the last couple of steaks we had - it was pretty good, but I have to say the the Napa and Washington State wines are better suited to our taste.

 

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj281/pagnew/Frenchwine.jpg

 

 

I was in Normandy in '85. I spoke pretty good French back then and could hold a conversation. When we arrived at our hotel it was evident by the initial treatment that our being American was not in our favor - until I started up a conversation with the hotel director. After that we were treated as well as any other place. I have found that same experience in Quebec Canada. No problem...

 

After we left Normandy we went back to England and then on to Belfast, Ireland. Incredible security at the train stops and airport. Very nervy situation and it was not as enjoyable as France. However, Scotland was GREAT First time I got drunk with my dad

 

GG ~

[Sergeant Smokepole #29248L]

Had some good French Wine with the last couple of steaks we had - it was pretty good, but I have to say the the Napa and Washington State wines are better suited to our taste.

 

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj281/pagnew/Frenchwine.jpg

 

 

I was in Normandy in '85. I spoke pretty good French back then and could hold a conversation. When we arrived at our hotel it was evident by the initial treatment that our being American was not in our favor - until I started up a conversation with the hotel director. After that we were treated as well as any other place. I have found that same experience in Quebec Canada. No problem...

 

After we left Normandy we went back to England and then on to Belfast, Ireland. Incredible security at the train stops and airport. Very nervy situation and it was not as enjoyable as France. However, Scotland was GREAT First time I got drunk with my dad

 

GG ~

 

 

Never been to France but I have been to Quebec. My French surname did help....

[J-BAR #18287]

I have a friend who actually seeks out French weapons at gun shows...

 

He says you can be sure they have never been fired, and they have only been dropped once.

[Seldom Seen #16162]

At the beginning of WWII the French out numbered Hitler’s army five to one yet they dropped their weapons and ran.

 

I don’t think the comments about the French being cowards in WWII are accurate or fair.

 

Estimates place that France mobilized 7,500,000 soldiers and had 1,385,000 soldiers killed and another 4,266,000 wounded in WWI for a 75% casualties rate.

 

Compared that to Britain who mobilized 5,397,000 soldiers and had 703,000 killed and 1,663,000 wounded for a 44% casualties rate and Germany who mobilized 11,000,000 soldiers and had 1,718,000 killed and 4,234,000 wounded for a 54% casualties rate. And then comes the Americans with 4,272,500 troops mobilized and 117,000 killed and 204,000 wounded for a 8% casualties rate.

 

By any measure France did the bulk of the fighting in WWI and paid for it in the loss of almost entire generation of young men.

 

After WWI England, France and the United States retreated in a official policy of isolationism. England had the channel, France built a series of forts on the Western Front and the United States sat smugly protected by two oceans.

 

When WWII broke out Germany violated the neutral countries, sweeping north around into the rear of the Maginot Line. Since the guns could not be turned around the Forts were indefensible. French tanks were as good as the Germans but they were used as Infantry support and were out fought by the Germans use of the blitzkrieg.

 

Meanwhile in the USA a strong isolation movement kept our military budget underfunded and our forces small. While we forced Japan into a smaller and smaller corner with embargos (hmmm, think Iran) smugly thinking (like France) that our powerful big gun battleships and island forts would protect us from attack.

 

Well we know the rest of the story. After WWII both England and France tried to restore control over it’s former colonies included Vietnam. France got it’s a$$ beat and once again the Americans barged in and well, we know the rest of the stories.

 

As for France letting Muslims into their country how is that different for the good ole USA allowing millions of illegal aliens to flow into the country?

 

It seems to me that we are thumbing our noses at a country that has made many of the same decisions as us. The only difference is we have come out on top so far (which many believe is about to end).

[Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680]

Chicken Rustler could you provide some further evidence of the treaty with Chad wrt overflight of France and Eldorado canyon.

Chad would not exactly be overflown during such a mission. Nor would it have been a target. So the terms must have have included materials/concepts outside of France and Chad.

I don't know any of the terms of the treaty, I have no idea if maybe one of the planned egress routes went through Chad or if Libya was named in the treaty, anything like that would be purely speculation. All I know is we were briefed that by our commander after the fact, and the impression I got was that France gave that as a reason for not approving it and so we didn't put more pressure on them to change their mind. I never looked it up so I don't know for sure that it was even true, it's just what we got briefed.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Chicken Rustler, you don't know the name or the dates of the treaty. Do you know anything about it.

There was a conflict that happened before Eldorado Canyon that involved libya and chad fighting over a strip of land along libya southern border and chads northern border. France and the US were helping Chad. France had troops on the ground. And there may have been something about france leaving the area.

BUT I don't understand how any outcome of that situation would encourage france to claim that a treaty (which I have been unable to find ANY reference to) would prohibit france from permitting US overflight of FRANCE. I would bet substantial money that chad would NOT be overflown by any operation Eldorado Canyon aircraft. The concerns over a treaty with chad sound like so much bull. If a plane flew a strike against the targets in Libya they would not be anywhere near chad. It would more likely that the planes hitting Tripoli might stray near Tunisia. But to egress libya via chad would mean violating airspace of some combination of niger, sudan, nigeria and central african republic. This path would put planes out of africa near the equator if they headed south. Absolutely useless path. if they headed west from chad the country would go up dramatically. Given the two targets in libya are on the NORTHERN coast of libya a chad egress is pointless and useless.

 

I seriously doubt any treaty with chad exists.

More french bs.