Duffield, SASS #23454 Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 I do not want to hijack Complicated Lady's thread, but she started me thinking about schools. We have been subjected to a barrage of TV commercials lately, to the effect that Kentucky's education system is vastly inferior to other states because we do not have charter schools. It seems to me that we would be better off upgrading all schools, and requiring pupils to master the classes given therein than to have a few special schools for select students and let the rest languish in the schools that are being described as inadequate. Perhaps I am not smart enough to understand what this is all about. Will some of you educators please explain charter schools in language that this simple hillbilly can understand? Thanks, Duffield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Old Man Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 We have them in Ohio. It seems they are in it to make money from the state. There's been all kind of problems with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Sandor, SASS #74075 Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Duffield: As a retired teacher, I have no personal experience with charter schools. But, by definition, a charter school is a publicly funded elementary or secondary school that operates a bit differently than the usual school. Most states have a huge number of rules and regulations for education. In a charter school, some of these rules are relaxed, or don't apply at all. As I understand it, the rules in question are spelled out in the school's charter. This document also has to spell out what results the school is expected to produce. In other words, the staff of a charter school gets the right to run things a little differently...could be class size, organization (graded, non-graded, ???) different texts (or none), subjects taught...you name it. In exchange for these things, the school's charter has to spell out exactly how much improvement the students in the school will show, as measured by the same standards applied to regular schools in the state. I have no numbers to show the success (or failure) rates in charter schools. These are probably available on-line. The reason these things came about is that people felt regular education was failing to produce results, and part of the reason was restrictive, unimaginative state laws. Charters are a way to experiment with education without the heavy hand of state regulators controlling everything. On the other hand, it seems, as GOM noted, one of the biggest problems with the charter schools is mismanagement of money. There are tales of $6,000 year-end staff parties, staff members double-dipping as consultants, and many other wastes of public funds. In addition, I have read reports of charter schools that were so narrowly focused (science academy, math academy, fine arts academy, etc.) that their students actually fell far behind regular public school students in performance in other areas. It appears that charter schools are very often offered up as solutions for poor performance in low-income, inner-city, and/or other disadvantaged areas. They are also seen by some as a way to "break" the influence of teacher unions. OPINION WARNING I would ask a lot of questions and demand specific answers before I ever agreed to allow my tax dollars to support a charter school. I would want to know who will be overseeing finances, how will students and staff be selected, what will be the subject focus, and whether there is a concrete plan for re-integrating the school's students back into the regular schools if the charter should fail. If I wasn't satisfied with all answers, my vote - if I got one - would be "NO." HOWEVER, if all the answers are right, I would not have a problem with it. Like anything else, the trick is to weed out the bad and keep the good. CS edited for content Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spur Strap SASS # 57161 Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 We put our youngest kids in a charter school when they started kindergarten got one in 1st and one in 3rd. Our two boys that are in college went thru the public schools; and the two schools are different as night and day. In our charter school there is alot less "school politics" and it is structured alot like schools were when I was in grade school, meaning you are treated as a kid not as someone to fill a chair in a classroom. Our school has been awarded school of excellence and several other awards. As far as the comment on the being in it for the money, our school gets less funding from the state than a public school about 40%a less and they have a operating cost half of the average elementary school. To make ends meet we have fund raisers and such. We don't get bus service from the county, and have to pay the county to have the one activity bus serviced by the county garage. It may be different in other parts of the country but here charter schools are way better than public schools. Oh by the way it is open for any student not just a select few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 There are good and bad sides to the charter school/magnet school ideas. The magnet schools that were required for Kansas City by a judge nearly broke the entire state's school system. They were given first choice on the state money and they really did do a good job of spending it(sarcasm). One of the schools decided the kids should all learn to canoe, so they bought a ton of canoes. Then since KC doesn't have mountain streams, they built a canoe pool. They were not successful and have since been allowed,for the most part, to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 I went out and bought a new fire suit and some nomex and kevlar drawers, so when y'all flame me for what I'm saying just know that I'm well prepared. I'll make this comment and say no more. Until we STOP trying to make every student into college material, and start educating to the students' needs and true potential, our education system will remain inefficient, inadequate, and ultimately broken. The idea that everybody is a winner every time and that every student is a hidden genius is what has killed the education system. The very wording of "No child left behind," is contrary to the actual individual capabilities of the children in public education. Private education too for the most part. Until we remember and recognise that some students will never have the capability to be a doctor, and that some will be better suited to be painters or carpenters or checkout clerks, we do these children a disservice. To strive to be your best is what education SHOULD be about. If Tommy can't do some part of the curiculum, (not just doesn't want to or is having a little trouble with it) he shouldn't be passed on. Tommy could be really good at something else, something not as glamourous but just as important. There are those who aren't cut out for academic excellence. When we stopped teaching to the student's needs and started teaching to the standardised tests in order to meet criteria that is both onerous and misguided, we stopped producing the best and brightest schollars (sp?) and citizens. If Tommy is cut out to be the best wrecker driver, or field hand, or nuclear scientist then he should be encouraged and offered the oportunities and avenues to reach his fullest potential. If that potential is to be a field hand then give him the tools and knowledge to be the best. If he is not cut out to be a brain surgeon don't try to make him into one. If we take a little of what is misspent on "today's higher education" and put it toward vocational education, and remove the stigma associated with "trade schools", which I'll say here ARE a form of true higher education, we'll soon find that our emerging adult citizens are better educated and more suited to the real world. Economicaly, we cause undue burdens on young adults that are wrongfully prodded into colleges and universities to try to obtain goals that they are not capable of attaining nor truthfully desirous of reaching, only to have them fall short, and then have financial obligations (student loans etc...) that they are forced to pay for at the expense of their future financial wellbeing. If that money had been spent on an education that they could have used, they'd become productive and prosperous members of society. I hope that I've made my point and that today's educators will begin to think outside the current box they find themselves in. I have taught adult vocational classes in the past and have lived with a truly excellent professional educator for more than thirty-five years. To watch as she deals with the frustrations of the current education system and continually raises the level of learning of the students she teaches has made me proud of her, and I look on in wonder sometimes as she answers to her calling. I see teachers who look at this as a job, five days a week, three months off in the summer and a long break at Christmas, and am angered that they are the ones who complain the most about meeting educational standards. They have little or no thought to what is best for the students and only complain that they are being asked to do more. Sad. These children ARE our future. For good teachers and great ones, this is what they're there for. Whether it's a charter school, a parochial school, a vocational or technical school, or a public school it should offer the attending student the avenues and tools to be the best they can be. Unless there are handicaps that can't be overcome, we should never again hear "Tommy can't read,"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefty Stone Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 I went out and bought a new fire suit and some nomex and kevlar drawers, so when y'all flame me for what I'm saying just know that I'm well prepared. I'll make this comment and say no more. Until we STOP trying to make every student into college material, and start educating to the students' needs and true potential, our education system will remain inefficient, inadequate, and ultimately broken. I too am married to an Educator, going on 25yrs... Desperado hit this one square on the head... could not have said it any better. -Stone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Sandor, SASS #74075 Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 No flames from this quarter either...I taught for 35 years, my wife for 40. I took retirement when I could,certainly not because of the kids I taught. I was still having fun in the classroom, but incompetent administrators (most of whom never actually taught in a classroom!), political games, interfering state legislators who know nothing about education and yuppie (that's a negative word) board members all have their effect after a while. My district never had a serious problem with dropout rates until our illustrious board decided that EVERYONE MUST be prepared for college entrance, and that vo-tec programs were a waste of money...and space. As I understand it, the last vo-tec class to be cut was welding...they needed the space for an athletic practice area and weight room... CS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Shoer 27979 Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 I went out and bought a new fire suit and some nomex and kevlar drawers, so when y'all flame me for what I'm saying just know that I'm well prepared. I'll make this comment and say no more. Until we STOP trying to make every student into college material, and start educating to the students' needs and true potential, our education system will remain inefficient, inadequate, and ultimately broken. The idea that everybody is a winner every time and that every student is a hidden genius is what has killed the education system. The very wording of "No child left behind," is contrary to the actual individual capabilities of the children in public education. Private education too for the most part. Until we remember and recognise that some students will never have the capability to be a doctor, and that some will be better suited to be painters or carpenters or checkout clerks, we do these children a disservice. To strive to be your best is what education SHOULD be about. If Tommy can't do some part of the curiculum, (not just doesn't want to or is having a little trouble with it) he shouldn't be passed on. Tommy could be really good at something else, something not as glamourous but just as important. There are those who aren't cut out for academic excellence. When we stopped teaching to the student's needs and started teaching to the standardised tests in order to meet criteria that is both onerous and misguided, we stopped producing the best and brightest schollars (sp?) and citizens. If Tommy is cut out to be the best wrecker driver, or field hand, or nuclear scientist then he should be encouraged and offered the oportunities and avenues to reach his fullest potential. If that potential is to be a field hand then give him the tools and knowledge to be the best. If he is not cut out to be a brain surgeon don't try to make him into one. If we take a little of what is misspent on "today's higher education" and put it toward vocational education, and remove the stigma associated with "trade schools", which I'll say here ARE a form of true higher education, we'll soon find that our emerging adult citizens are better educated and more suited to the real world. Economicaly, we cause undue burdens on young adults that are wrongfully prodded into colleges and universities to try to obtain goals that they are not capable of attaining nor truthfully desirous of reaching, only to have them fall short, and then have financial obligations (student loans etc...) that they are forced to pay for at the expense of their future financial wellbeing. If that money had been spent on an education that they could have used, they'd become productive and prosperous members of society. I hope that I've made my point and that today's educators will begin to think outside the current box they find themselves in. I have taught adult vocational classes in the past and have lived with a truly excellent professional educator for more than thirty-five years. To watch as she deals with the frustrations of the current education system and continually raises the level of learning of the students she teaches has made me proud of her, and I look on in wonder sometimes as she answers to her calling. I see teachers who look at this as a job, five days a week, three months off in the summer and a long break at Christmas, and am angered that they are the ones who complain the most about meeting educational standards. They have little or no thought to what is best for the students and only complain that they are being asked to do more. Sad. These children ARE our future. For good teachers and great ones, this is what they're there for. Whether it's a charter school, a parochial school, a vocational or technical school, or a public school it should offer the attending student the avenues and tools to be the best they can be. Unless there are handicaps that can't be overcome, we should never again hear "Tommy can't read,"! I agree with you 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jake1001 Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 I heard or read somewhere that only 24% of High School Students go to College. Of that 24% only 25% actually Graduate with a degree. So why is everyone so worried about every kid, when most of them will never make it anyway. Just sayin' Big Jake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Shoer 27979 Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 If I remember correctly you donot even have to have teaching credentials for charter school, although I could be wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 I went out and bought a new fire suit and some nomex and kevlar drawers, so when y'all flame me for what I'm saying just know that I'm well prepared. I'll make this comment and say no more. Until we STOP trying to make every student into college material, and start educating to the students' needs and true potential, our education system will remain inefficient, inadequate, and ultimately broken. The idea that everybody is a winner every time and that every student is a hidden genius is what has killed the education system. The very wording of "No child left behind," is contrary to the actual individual capabilities of the children in public education. Private education too for the most part. Until we remember and recognise that some students will never have the capability to be a doctor, and that some will be better suited to be painters or carpenters or checkout clerks, we do these children a disservice. To strive to be your best is what education SHOULD be about. If Tommy can't do some part of the curiculum, (not just doesn't want to or is having a little trouble with it) he shouldn't be passed on. Tommy could be really good at something else, something not as glamourous but just as important. There are those who aren't cut out for academic excellence. When we stopped teaching to the student's needs and started teaching to the standardised tests in order to meet criteria that is both onerous and misguided, we stopped producing the best and brightest schollars (sp?) and citizens. If Tommy is cut out to be the best wrecker driver, or field hand, or nuclear scientist then he should be encouraged and offered the oportunities and avenues to reach his fullest potential. If that potential is to be a field hand then give him the tools and knowledge to be the best. If he is not cut out to be a brain surgeon don't try to make him into one. If we take a little of what is misspent on "today's higher education" and put it toward vocational education, and remove the stigma associated with "trade schools", which I'll say here ARE a form of true higher education, we'll soon find that our emerging adult citizens are better educated and more suited to the real world. Economicaly, we cause undue burdens on young adults that are wrongfully prodded into colleges and universities to try to obtain goals that they are not capable of attaining nor truthfully desirous of reaching, only to have them fall short, and then have financial obligations (student loans etc...) that they are forced to pay for at the expense of their future financial wellbeing. If that money had been spent on an education that they could have used, they'd become productive and prosperous members of society. I hope that I've made my point and that today's educators will begin to think outside the current box they find themselves in. I have taught adult vocational classes in the past and have lived with a truly excellent professional educator for more than thirty-five years. To watch as she deals with the frustrations of the current education system and continually raises the level of learning of the students she teaches has made me proud of her, and I look on in wonder sometimes as she answers to her calling. I see teachers who look at this as a job, five days a week, three months off in the summer and a long break at Christmas, and am angered that they are the ones who complain the most about meeting educational standards. They have little or no thought to what is best for the students and only complain that they are being asked to do more. Sad. These children ARE our future. For good teachers and great ones, this is what they're there for. Whether it's a charter school, a parochial school, a vocational or technical school, or a public school it should offer the attending student the avenues and tools to be the best they can be. Unless there are handicaps that can't be overcome, we should never again hear "Tommy can't read,"! You are so right. Not every student can, should or must go to college. There is nothing wrong with learning to become a cabinetmaker, plumber, electrician, machinist, welder, etc. (In no particular order) This may be the actual reason that we have become a nation with a high percentage of "intellectually useless liberals" or burger flippers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Had a friend from England who went to a Manga Charter school. Izzat different? Nyuck Nyuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 They were not successful and have since been allowed,for the most part, to die. The first part of your statement is true, the second part, not so much. They are still a part of the "conversation" in this area (Kansas City) and siphon a lot of $$$ from the city and state. Charter schools are still proffered as a viable alternative to a failed public school district. No one but the proponents can "verify" that claim. Racial politics drive the debate and make a lot of money for those on both sides of the divide. The downside is the kids lose every time, no matter what part of the country the debate is taking place. My two cents from 30+ years of observation in my community... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438 Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 For a somewhat different view of charter schools.... http://www.masscharterschools.org/schools/index.html LL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duffield, SASS #23454 Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 I want to thank everybody who replied to my question. There are pluses and minuses to the concept, and I will have to ask questions of the people who want charter schools in Kentucky before I make a decision on how I will vote. I went to school in Southeast Kentucky. The school district that I went to grouped students by demonstrated ability. When we entered High School, we were given a choice of a General Studies, Business or Academic track. Most, but not all, of our teachers from first grade on up saw themselves as craftsmen who were moulding little minds. We were very blessed to have these teachers! After a stint in the Army, I went to a trade school to earn my Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic's license. I never felt that it was less honorable to do that, than to go to college. As Blackwater Desperado says, not everybody is cut out for academia. Not everybody wants to go to college. Educators need to recognize that fact and teach students accordingly. So, back to the original question, it appears that Charter Schools can do a lot of good, if carefully composed and properly led. Thank you all, Duffield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.