Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Hi again Philly, Here is a real life story. I was a "peanut" on the stage. Shooter set down her rifle with one left. I hesitated to say anything as the TO and Counters didn't catch it, it was an annual match, and she was in my category. The last made me hesitate because of the impression it would have if I were wrong. I realized I had to be correct and yelled "one more" and there was one more. Big sigh of relief. Now, if I'd been wrong, I'd have wasted her time and she would not have gotten a reshoot. It can be tricky. Even the TO can make a mistake. Luckily they can offer a reshoot. We have several shooters who are very hard of hearing. If they followed a bad command from someone other than the TO, as TO I would offer a reshoot. BOD that they could not tell who said what. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 BK, we went over this a couple of years ago. I was 'badly" advised by the peanut gallery, couldn't understand, but froze, fearing a safety issue, and blew up a perfectly good stage at a state shoot. When we aired this out, PWB said FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS RULE "range official" means TO, spotters, anybody WORKING the line. Beyond that, YES it is incumbent upon the TO to remind the gallery to "let the shooter own the stage," an give them the respect of not messing em up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 BK, we went over this a couple of years ago. I was 'badly" advised by the peanut gallery, couldn't understand, but froze, fearing a safety issue, and blew up a perfectly good stage at a state shoot. When we aired this out, PWB said FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS RULE "range official" means TO, spotters, anybody WORKING the line. Beyond that, YES it is incumbent upon the TO to remind the gallery to "let the shooter own the stage," an give them the respect of not messing em up. Yes, I understand that, AJ, however, recently this was aired here on the SASS WAHR, referred to the RO Committee, voted on at the TG Summit and my post underscores CRR: So I can see noboby read the ROC clarifications given during the TG meeting en December 2011. May I recall you the text? 13. Define who may "OFFICIALLY" coach the shooter. TO is the official coach. Spotter should assist the TO and coach for safety issues ( closed lever, casing in action,round count, etc) and knockdown targets I think this text is clear and is the direct answer to the question asked in this topic! The "OFFICIAL" coach is the TO. Bad Coaching by the TO is grounds for a re-shoot. No one else may cause any action at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying W Ramrod Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I have a buddy who asks me to coach him at matches away from home at least until it can be figured out which TO's are capable of helping a fast shooter. I typically take the timer to do so, but if there's a timer hog on the button...oh well. As Goody pointed out, The unfortunate reality is we will never be able to insure that every shooter has an equally qualified capable TO. IMO, having a RO badge does not necessarily qualify someone to be a TO. It's a step, but some people are simply not cut out for the job. I've seen excellent shooters who are terrible TO's and middle-of-the-road shooters who are excellent TO's. The ROI pin was never meant to mean the wearer is a qualified Timer Operator. It is meant to mean the wearer has gone through the SASS ROI course and is familiar with the SASS Safety Guidelines. The current policy of SASS is that you don't even have to be a SASS member to take the ROI course. It is hoped that EVERY shooter take the ROI course and those desiring to become TO's take the ROII course. There is no minimum age for the ROI course either. At one time, and may be in the future, there was discussion about requiring all SASS shooters to take the ROI course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 The ROI pin was never meant to mean the wearer is a qualified Timer Operator. It is meant to mean the wearer has gone through the SASS ROI course and is familiar with the SASS Safety Guidelines. The current policy of SASS is that you don't even have to be a SASS member to take the ROI course. It is hoped that EVERY shooter take the ROI course and those desiring to become TO's take the ROII course. There is no minimum age for the ROI course either. At one time, and may be in the future, there was discussion about requiring all SASS shooters to take the ROI course. What I'm meaning to say is: The presence of a RO pin of any color (including black) doesn't mean a person should be operating the timer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Yes, I understand that, AJ, however, recently this was aired here on the SASS WAHR, referred to the RO Committee, voted on at the TG Summit and my post underscores CRR: 13. Define who may "OFFICIALLY" coach the shooter. TO is the official coach. Spotter should assist the TO and coach for safety issues ( closed lever, casing in action,round count, etc) and knockdown targets The "OFFICIAL" coach is the TO. Bad Coaching by the TO is grounds for a re-shoot. No one else may cause any action at all. MISdirection by spotters regarding SAFETY issues (see examples above) would be grounds for a REshoot. That is what was clarified at the TG Summit. FWIW - Those updates/changes/clarifications are available to all Territorial Governors. It is their responsibility to communicate that information to their club members. We are making progress on getting the online WtC? section added to the SASS website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 MISdirection by spotters regarding SAFETY issues (see examples above) would be grounds for a REshoot. That is what was clarified at the TG Summit. FWIW - Those updates/changes/clarifications are available to all Territorial Governors. It is their responsibility to communicate that information to their club members. We are making progress on getting the online WtC? section added to the SASS website. All righty then.... so my MISS- understanding is only around PROCEDURAL calls, then? Spotters mis-calling any safety (to include round count) or thought another way, any issue that would involve an MSV- would be grounds for a reshoot. KEERECT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frontier Lone Rider Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I know it's the RO's responsibility to safety guide the shooter through a stage but, can other shooters coach the shooter? For instance, let's say the stage calles for pistols to perform a Nevada sweep on three targets starting from either end. That means the second pistol will start on the middle target. Can another shooter, not the RO, remind the shooter to engage the middle target as he brings up his second pistol? I for one appreciate any assistance I can get. I always tell the TO and spotters not to be shy while I am shooting. My senior moments are not necessarily with the shooting string, but when there is movement and you have to take something along. I always seem to forget the bag of gold, bear, etc. Lone Rider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 I have a buddy who asks me to coach him at matches away from home at least until it can be figured out which TO's are capable of helping a fast shooter. This is more along the lines of what I was asking. (Although all the replies have been very enlightening.) I was thinking more along the lines of an experienced shooter getting help from another experienced shooter during complex stages. Seemed a bit like team shooting and since I hadn't seen it before, I didn't know if it was kosher. Thanks to all for the info, I'm learning a lot here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Hey Philly, you're gona love this little story. Last summer at one of the local monthly shoots, I was on the line and had already started my shooting string. Then I heard this loud voice (and I don't hear very well) that sounded like, "CEASE FIRE". I hesitated briefly realizing the TO was urging me to keep shootin. Then a few seconds later, I hear it again....."Cease Fire". It wasn't the TO as he was tell me to keep shootin. ANYHOW, it was the score keeper yelling out the next persons name scheduled to get to the loading table. Frankly, I don't even recall the name now but it sure sounded like "Cease Fire" to me. I didn't ask for a reshoot but I did mention it to the scorekeeper and ask him not to holler during a shooters firing sequence. I told him what it sounded like and he realized his mistake. No harm done. But ifn this had been in a big match and I totally stopped (Unwarranted), would I be given a reshoot due to annoyances from another posse member? ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Widder, i can almost assuredly, well maybe, I think so,,hmmmmmm, ahhhhh, errr, say............yes! Then i wud du as yu did, AND iffn tha shooters name was Cease Fire...I would strongly submit to sass to not allow thit name tu stand..or any other name which would sound so similar to a very important range order... Cheyenne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Who all has had a problem with improper coaching from someone other than the TO/Spotters? I haven't. I am sure the posse and officals would gladly keep quiet if you requested it once you have stepped up to the firing line. In fact, no one has to coach or shout out advice to anyone. The shooter can hang them self and that would be perfectly legal and the shooter then would have no grounds for a reshoot or anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 But ifn this had been in a big match and I totally stopped (Unwarranted), would I be given a reshoot due to annoyances from another posse member? ..........Widder Wow, there's a darn good question. Since we're all suppsed to be safety officers anyone can holler "cease fire". Sure seems to me you a shooter who hears that should be offered a reshoot but then again, that also opens the door for abuse. Not sure how that one should be handled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Philly Slim I thought Who was on first base, is he coaching the shooter from there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 ... But ifn this had been in a big match and I totally stopped (Unwarranted), would I be given a reshoot due to annoyances from another posse member? Circumstances such as you related would be covered under the RO3 rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Priority. If someone yells at me while I am shooting and I cannot tell what they are yelling I stop ! A DNF is better than a gun blowing up in my face, if what they were yelling was "SQUIB" . But a Procedural, a Miss (for unfired round) or MSV is better than the DNF, which is what I would earn if they did not yell anything ! Yelling for safety is necessary - other than that - let the shooter shoot and earn his/her score, without interference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 But ifn this had been in a big match and I totally stopped (Unwarranted), would I be given a reshoot due to annoyances from another posse member? Sure. TO had better grant a reshoot if the shooter heard "Cease Fire" and stopped (even if the TO or spotters did not call it). Otherwise, there will be a "legitimate" Cease Fire call made sometime and a shooter will think it is OK to just ignore it. I even get touchy (as a TO) if I hear the posse members yelling "Stop" or "Whoa", also. Unless they are trying to get the shooter to Cease Fire, they need to eliminate those yells from their vocabulary. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 This is more along the lines of what I was asking. (Although all the replies have been very enlightening.) I was thinking more along the lines of an experienced shooter getting help from another experienced shooter during complex stages. Seemed a bit like team shooting and since I hadn't seen it before, I didn't know if it was kosher. Thanks to all for the info, I'm learning a lot here. Helping a shooter through the stage is encouraged though I'll say that the 'helpers' should, for sake of less confusion be limited to the RO and spotters. If you remember Stage 12, Coosie's store Philly, that stage allowed a LOT of different ways for a shooter to engage the SG targets while the bowling ball was...bowling. The RO's on my posse were encouraged to help the shooter with 'UP' or 'MOVE' or 'BIRD' commands in effect, helping those who would have shot at a KD and missed the bird to put that round at the bird instead. If a shooter wants coaching, he should get it. If it's from another experienced shooter not the RO or spotters, I don't see a problem really during the stage but maybe I'm missing your point. Hey Philly, you're gona love this little story. Last summer at one of the local monthly shoots, I was on the line and had already started my shooting string. Then I heard this loud voice (and I don't hear very well) that sounded like, "CEASE FIRE". I hesitated briefly realizing the TO was urging me to keep shootin. Then a few seconds later, I hear it again....."Cease Fire". It wasn't the TO as he was tell me to keep shootin. ANYHOW, it was the score keeper yelling out the next persons name scheduled to get to the loading table. Frankly, I don't even recall the name now but it sure sounded like "Cease Fire" to me. I didn't ask for a reshoot but I did mention it to the scorekeeper and ask him not to holler during a shooters firing sequence. I told him what it sounded like and he realized his mistake. No harm done. But ifn this had been in a big match and I totally stopped (Unwarranted), would I be given a reshoot due to annoyances from another posse member? ..........Widder Given the circumstances you describe above, I would be inclined to grant a reshoot big match or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 If a shooter wants coaching, he should get it. If it's from another experienced shooter not the RO or spotters, I don't see a problem really during the stage but maybe I'm missing your point. You got my point EXACTLY correct and I thank you for your insight. P.S. I LOVED Coosie's. Actually I loved all the stages but, Coosies was one of the best. I absolutely smoked it..............................right up until I forgot about that pesky front sight on one of my pistols. Sure glad I got to shoot it Thursday and didn't have to take a Coke shower Friday morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 The TO is the only "Official" from whom 'bad coaching' becomes grounds for a re-shoot. A spotter who yells, "ONE LEFT" and sends a shooter back to a gun or around the cylinders for 6 clicks DOES NOT cause a re-shoot if there isn't one left. In the instance of TO 'bad coaching' it has been argued for pages here that TO 'bad coaching is an actual impediment/interference with the shooter. But, spotter/gallery 'bad coaching' is NOT interference- it's noise. Similarly, a shooter that calls "SQUIB" and stops a string will NOT be awarded a re-shoot if there is no squib. But, a "SQUIB" called by a TO that has no round in the barrel is definitely grounds for a re-shoot. The rules don't prohibit others from yelling instructions during a course of fire, however, they do specifically provide remedy and assign accountability to both the TO and the Shooter. If 18 people are yelling "HULL" but the TO doesn't coach "HULL" there is no re-shoot if the hull is, in fact, out of the gun or the lever is, in fact, open enough to be open. I smell a winner here I will buy the first round next time we meet cuz yer wright right something like that?????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 I smell a winner here I will buy the first round next time we meet cuz yer wright right something like that?????????? Had the pleasure of finally meeting Brother King at Winter Range. He certainly is a winner but, that sure isn't how I'd describe the way he smelled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying W Ramrod Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 The TO is the only "Official" from whom 'bad coaching' becomes grounds for a re-shoot. A spotter who yells, "ONE LEFT" and sends a shooter back to a gun or around the cylinders for 6 clicks DOES NOT cause a re-shoot if there isn't one left. In the instance of TO 'bad coaching' it has been argued for pages here that TO 'bad coaching is an actual impediment/interference with the shooter. But, spotter/gallery 'bad coaching' is NOT interference- it's noise. Similarly, a shooter that calls "SQUIB" and stops a string will NOT be awarded a re-shoot if there is no squib. But, a "SQUIB" called by a TO that has no round in the barrel is definitely grounds for a re-shoot. The rules don't prohibit others from yelling instructions during a course of fire, however, they do specifically provide remedy and assign accountability to both the TO and the Shooter. If 18 people are yelling "HULL" but the TO doesn't coach "HULL" there is no re-shoot if the hull is, in fact, out of the gun or the lever is, in fact, open enough to be open. Had a situation almost like this last weekend on myself. I laid the rifle down after 9, picked up my shotgun and finished the stage with the TO and Spotters yelling one more in the rifle. After the stage was over, I said "squib". Ran the rod down the barrel and knocked the pill out. I know my guns and the sounds they make better than anyone else, ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Similarly, a shooter that calls "SQUIB" and stops a string will NOT be awarded a re-shoot if there is no squib. But, a "SQUIB" called by a TO that has no round in the barrel is definitely grounds for a re-shoot. BK, slight correction/clarification on your statement of a shooter calling a squib on himself and stops the shooting string. The shooter eats (counted as misses) all unfired rounds left in the gun plus the possible maybe yes, maybe no, squib w/o any sort of reshoot.... if...... no one (TO, spotters) spoke up at the time of the squib. Yer right, if the TO calls a squib and it turns out the barrel is clear, then a reshoot is in order. It happened to a pard at last months monthly. Blastmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Coaching can and will come from all directions, but the only official coaching comes from the T.O. If the shooter listens to input from the P-Nut gallery, then he/she will have to pay the penalty if that information is wrong. (Stop or Cease Fire is of course accepted) Spotters should do their job of counting misses and assisting the T.O. in watching for penalties.... They should not become A "CHEER LEADER" for the shooter at the expense of neglecting what they are there for. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 When you're off and running...just how the hell do you know if an instruction comes from the T.O or someone in the evil Peanut Gallery???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mustang Gregg Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 I prefer that the TO be the only one to "coach". Okay here's acomplicated firing order and the shooter gets confused... What happens when the spotters or spectators call out which target is next and they are wrong? So the shooter shoots the wrong target. The shooter gets the P. He also will get a case of the ass. That's one good reason for the only coach to be the TO. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacknife Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 I have never figured out how a person can be influenced by the peanut gallery speaking up. How in the hell do you here them if ya are REALLY into your game and CONCENTRATING on what you are doing at the moment. I have never let the voices behind me enter into what I was doing at the time. If your head is wrapped tight around the scenario, nothing short of the RO tapping ya on the shoulder will get your attention. WATT__WADJASAYYYY< Huhhhhhh Huhhhhh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 I have never figured out how a person can be influenced by the peanut gallery speaking up. How in the hell do you here them if ya are REALLY into your game and CONCENTRATING on what you are doing at the moment. I have never let the voices behind me enter into what I was doing at the time. If your head is wrapped tight around the scenario, nothing short of the RO tapping ya on the shoulder will get your attention. WATT__WADJASAYYYY< Huhhhhhh Huhhhhh Bulls***. You put down your rifle and dart off...P.G. yells OPEN! You stop, then the T.O. (knowing that the lever is open enough) says GO!. So...there's one example. Cheers! Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Philly Slim, is this your way of beg'n us for help due to you advanced CRS issues LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 You guys/gals must shoot at some really hard ass monthly matches to have this as a problem. We seem to know what to do to make it right to the shooter and the other shooters when such rare,rare occurance happens. Just saying..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Heavens ! Can it be that Phantom and I agree ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Sure glad I got to shoot it Thursday and didn't have to take a Coke shower Friday morning. We shot it Thursday and it wasn't too bad but I learned the 'hard way' when I was down there the other two days that discriminating shooters stand around the corner until AFTER the can goes.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 Philly Slim, is this your way of beg'n us for help due to you advanced CRS issues LG I have Sour Kraut to help me with my CRS issues. This is my way of beg'n you for help with all my OTHER issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 I have Sour Kraut to help me with my CRS issues. This is my way of beg'n you for help with all my OTHER issues. Such a LONG list .........Such a short time LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 What I'm meaning to say is: The presence of a RO pin of any color (including black) doesn't mean a person should be operating the timer. To elaborate a bit more: A freshly turned 16 year-old might take the written portion of the drivers license test and score a 100...yet fail the actual driving test. In time they might have their insurance cancelled due to a high number of accidents. Why? IMO, a person's ability to "test" is not necessarily a reflection of their ability to perform. In the case of someone becoming an RO1, an RO2, or even an RO Instructor, while they might pass the required tests, it doesn't mean they're going to be a good TO. They might excel in helping the posse when there is a question regarding what the penalty is for a particular infraction, or better yet are able to show others what the correct call is. There are many posse duties to be performed that someone can be "good" at. In the case of an RO Instructor, they might be the best instructor in the world and capable of performing every other posse duty splendidly...but they're just not cut out to be a TO. An example of this: Olympic athletes are commonly coached by people who were not Olympic athletes themselves. We are not a sport in which we hire officials to come in and officiate our game...and we don't want to be. This sometimes leaves us with imperfect situations, an example being one shooter having a "better" TO/coach than another. As long as we have this, then I don't think we need to worry about "Who can coach a shooter?" Yes, your buddy can coach you. If they coach you wrong, get another coach. I like what Blastmaster had to say: "...make it right to the shooter...." You guys/gals must shoot at some really hard ass monthly matches to have this as a problem. We seem to know what to do to make it right to the shooter and the other shooters when such rare,rare occurance happens. Just saying..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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