Shooting Bull Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I know it's the RO's responsibility to safety guide the shooter through a stage but, can other shooters coach the shooter? For instance, let's say the stage calles for pistols to perform a Nevada sweep on three targets starting from either end. That means the second pistol will start on the middle target. Can another shooter, not the RO, remind the shooter to engage the middle target as he brings up his second pistol? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fargo Bill, SASS #4942 Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I know it's the RO's responsibility to safety guide the shooter through a stage but, can other shooters coach the shooter? For instance, let's say the stage calles for pistols to perform a Nevada sweep on three targets starting from either end. That means the second pistol will start on the middle target. Can another shooter, not the RO, remind the shooter to engage the middle target as he brings up his second pistol? Review the order with shooter before he/she declares being ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted February 27, 2012 Author Share Posted February 27, 2012 Review the order with shooter before he/she declares being ready. Yep, that's before the beep. Who's allowed to do it after the beep? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curly Red Ryder Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Spotters can coach a shooter for safeties or for knockdown targets mostly when shooting BP as the timer is not always able to see them thru the smoke. This was given by the ROC during the 2010 TG summit: "TO is the official coach. Spotter should assist the TO and coach for safety issues ( closed lever, casing in action, round count, etc.) and knockdown targets" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 The RO should be the one to coach, not spotters or the peanut gallery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I don't find anything in the rules that prohibit VERBAL assistance from anyone. Lacking a rules prohibition, other posse members are allowed to call out instructions as they want. (Normally, such instructions slow down or obstruct a good shooter.) Most matches will not be golf-gallery quiet. It usually is up to the shooter to learn to block out any "unwanted advice." But if some spotter sees that a KD did not go down (and the RO has not already told me), I like being told about it. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I don't find anything in the rules that prohibit VERBAL assistance from anyone. Lacking a rules prohibition, other posse members are allowed to call out instructions as they want. (Normally, such instructions slow down or obstruct a good shooter.) Most matches will not be golf-gallery quiet. It usually is up to the shooter to learn to block out any "unwanted advice." But if some spotter sees that a KD did not go down (and the RO has not already told me), I like being told about it. Good luck, GJ So another shooter yells out incorrect instructions and the shooter reacts, then what? What if the other shooter is a cat competitor? Not a good ideal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 So another shooter yells out incorrect instructions and the shooter reacts, then what? What if the other shooter is a cat competitor? Not a good ideal. So when that happens your call is going to be....? And when a buckaroo needs assistance and his Dad is close and calls out, start on the MIDDLE target, and that is good advice, your call is going to be the same? Good luck, GJ Ah, Philly, you are so evil! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Uuuhhh.. may not be proper protocal but.. At our local monthly matches.. If there is a difficult sweep involved.. that we are not use to.. The other shooters (peanut gallery if ya want to call them that) will holler out to almost every shooter.. "Target so n' so with you next shot.." and then let them proceed on their own.. Nothing ill intended.. just helpin' Nobody seems to object.. Rance My thinkin'.. no harm.. no foul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Anyone can yell any thing they think is coaching to you during the stage. No matter how distracting, you are responsible for shooting the stage safely and correctly. I ask Spotters and others not to coach me. As when someone yells - I cannot determine what they are yelling and have to conclude it is a safety problem and I just stop and have to take a DNF, which is worse than any penalty they are yelling at me about. I have asked for a reshoot when someone other than the TO yells at me - but the rules are no reshoots for someone from the gallery distracting you by yelling at you. You just have to learn to ignore the coaching by yelling. If a shooter can shoot a 10-10-4 stage in 20 seconds, how can coaching help the shooter. The stage is almost over before and the event in the past before the coach can get the coaching out of his/her mouth. You can tell I am frustrated by well meaning individuals yelling at me while I am trying to focus and shoot fast as I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Hi Philly, This is a hard question. Sometimes a shooter cannot tell who is yelling. Could be the TO, could be the "peanut gallery." I know of several times as a "peanut," (including this weekend) I've correctly yelled "one more." Yet, what do you do when the shooter hears that and the call is incorrect. The shooter may waste time racking, or worse, running back to the gun and finding out it was empty. We may have to draw a line in some cases. KISS. That is why a bad call is usually only considered impeding only if it comes from the TO. That said, I think that it is not a black/white thing. The call (reshoot or not) really needs to depend on the situation,(hearing ability of the shooter, . . . ) Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Whether I be the TO or a member of the Peanut Gallery I am gonna sing out if I think I can prevent a mistake. If I am not sure about 'one more' I'll keep my mouth shut. If at the time I sing out or not depending on the situation you can politely request a reshoot if you feel you've been wronged. I will usually vote for the shooter if they feel they have been wronged. This is at a monthly. At a big match if I am not the TO I will always keep my mouth shut. I will inform the TO at the end of the string what I saw and whether I feel there were any transgressions committed by the shooter. The TO is then at the liberty to apply whatever calls he/she wishes. And I'll tell you, it really is a shame. Because I am a damn good TO. I notice a lot of things that could have been avoided, but that go uncalled because there are quite a few people that should never have the timer in their hand. I don't care how many classes you go to, if you don't pay close attention to everything the shooter is doing and stay a step ahead you are going to miss calls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cinch, SASS#29433 Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Any and everyone can coach. Should the shooter listen is the question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pit Bull Tex Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I for one like the help sometime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangler Jones, SASS # 64178 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Whether I be the TO or a member of the Peanut Gallery I am gonna sing out if I think I can prevent a mistake. +1 If I am not sure about 'one more' I'll keep my mouth shut. Is that why you let me get a "one more" safety last Saturday? Or was it just 'cuz it was easy to lose count on that free-for-all stage? ...[T]here are quite a few people that should never have the timer in their hand. I, for one, should never have a timer in my hand! I probably ought to refrain from interfering for the most part. Common coaching 'round here usually involves shooters who lose track of where they are on rifle sweeps. I know I saved one shooter from a penalty once 'cuz I was the only person in position to see the empty shell on the carrier of his 97. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I was pretty sure you had another in the rifle, just not real sure. I was trying to keep up with targets engaged/remaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 And Goody's coachin' is usually spot on. Ear plugs in, mind cranking at 25 times the speed my body's moving... even with the TO right in my ear it takes minutes for the instruction to sink in... when seconds count! Even as slow as I shoot, when the hue and cry "UP!" goes up, I'm probably already moving for the next target... frankly... it still helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou Graham, # 26112 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Shooters that LIKE help will usually ask. "I have never shot this sweep, please yell out "middle" when I switch to the second pistol." Most BP shooters like help with the shotgun targets. Some want you to yell "They're DOWN!" Some want you to stay silent unless it's still UP. As an RO, if the shooter asks for silence or help, I try to let the spotters know so they can do the job the way the shooter has requested. Safety issues are an exception, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 any one can coach that is why it is so important for the shooter to be able to pre-program their mind as too who they will listen too wrong coaching from the wrong coach, dont git ya no-wears but backwards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 The RO should do the coaching, also the spotters have a responsibility to count shots and target engagement. If a shooter starts to holster a pistol, or lay down a rifle with another round left, and the RO misses it, the spotters should holler "one more" to assist the RO, same thing with KDs. The peanut gallery should stay out of it. Even if they do it's still the shooters responsibility to shoot the stage to the best of their ability. If the peanut gallery hollers out, either ignor them or look to the RO for proper instruction. If the RO gives you improper instructions then you can have a reshoot, if you listen to the gallery and they are wrong.....too bad. I for one appreciate spotters who are foucused on their job. Proper coaching or no coaching at all is not considered RO Interference and therefore will never be grounds for a reshoot/restart. RO I page 9-10 8. Spotters Have the responsibility to count shots and misses and to verify the targets were engaged in the correct order for the required number of shots. Spotters will assist the Timer Operator by watching for violations when the competitor retrieves staged firearms and draws revolvers since it is impossible for the Timer Operator to have an unobstructed view of both sides of the competitors body. Spotters are obligated to stop a shooter from attempting an unsafe action if the Timer Operator is not in position to see it or react quickly enough. G) Remember, the Timer Operator is not relied upon to count shots and misses. His main function is to assist the competitor through the course of fire, and his memory can easily be altered if something out of the ordinary happens or if he becomes occupied coaching a newer shooter through a stage. Jefro Relax-Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Hi Philly, This is a hard question. Sometimes a shooter cannot tell who is yelling. Could be the TO, ) Regards, Allie Mo that can be a skill set, that is learned practice and proven by many just a tip, for shooters that dont have that skill (yet) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assassin Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Designate a person to coach you. Tell others to be quiet except for the coach. Then you can only blame one other person beside yourself for screwing up. Or, perhaps every shooter can wear the timer, hit the button, and shoot the scenario without any assistance. This might be the best way to run a major match, and accept all penalties aquired. LL' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Ned Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I have seen friends bring brand new shooters and coach them from the loading table, shooting stage, and the unloading table. I believe this is helpful for the new shooter as they gain familiarity with our game. Ned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangler Jones, SASS # 64178 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I was pretty sure you had another in the rifle, just not real sure. I was trying to keep up with targets engaged/remaining. For the record, I bear no animosity - I lost track of MY rifle rounds, so I EARNED a safety. And Goody was spotting/scorekeeping, not TO-ing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 And I'll tell you, it really is a shame. Because I am a damn good TO. I notice a lot of things that could have been avoided, but that go uncalled because there are quite a few people that should never have the timer in their hand. I don't care how many classes you go to, if you don't pay close attention to everything the shooter is doing and stay a step ahead you are going to miss calls. You go Goody!!!! RIGHT ON!!!!!!! Oh, and silly little lapel pins are meaningless indicators of good RO's. Cheers!!! Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasty Newt # 7365 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Philly, this is an issue I've struggled with for some time, particularly on reactive shotgun targets. Many times I have heard someone yell "again" on a swinger or auto-reset target, and watched the shooter shoot it again. The problem, of course, is that if it wasn't a spotter yelling "again", and if the spotters all thought the target was hit in the first place, the shooter has just wasted several seconds complying with a peanut gallery opinion. For a while, with that kind of shotgun target, as a stage writer I eliminated the "+" from the shotgun round count, and said, just engage the targets as stated and let the spotters do their job. But shooters didn't like having the re-shoot option taken away. So I said fine, I put the "+" back in the scenario, and I now tell shooters if they think they missed it, regardless of who is or isn't yelling something, they can feel free to shoot it again if they want to. Nasty Newt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I don't find anything in the rules that prohibit VERBAL assistance from anyone. Lacking a rules prohibition, other posse members are allowed to call out instructions as they want. (Normally, such instructions slow down or obstruct a good shooter.) Most matches will not be golf-gallery quiet. It usually is up to the shooter to learn to block out any "unwanted advice." But if some spotter sees that a KD did not go down (and the RO has not already told me), I like being told about it. Good luck, GJ True enough anyone CAN speak up, but if coaching turns BAD, only coaching from "range officers" (includes spotters) can be grounds for a re-shoot. bad commentary from the peanut gallery that leads a shooter astray is "tough luck". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curly Red Ryder Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 So I can see noboby read the ROC clarifications given during the TG meeting en December 2011. May I recall you the text? 13. Define who may "OFFICIALLY" coach the shooter. TO is the official coach. Spotter should assist the TO and coach for safety issues ( closed lever, casing in action,round count, etc) and knockdown targets I think this text is clear and is the direct answer to the question asked in this topic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Curly Red Ryder, if you are correct - then NO ONE should be yelling at the Shooter but the TO and the Spotters ( then, only for the items listed) This would be great ! Does that mean, a Shooter gets a reshoot if someone from the gallery yells and distracts the Shooter? If so, can you get Palewolf to confirm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Curly Red Ryder, if you are correct - then NO ONE should be yelling at the Shooter but the TO and the Spotters ( then, only for the items listed) This would be great ! Does that mean, a Shooter gets a reshoot if someone from the gallery yells and distracts the Shooter? No, either ignor them or look to the RO for proper instruction. Good Luck Jefro Relax-Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 True enough anyone CAN speak up, but if coaching turns BAD, only coaching from "range officers" (includes spotters) can be grounds for a re-shoot. bad commentary from the peanut gallery that leads a shooter astray is "tough luck". Yep, there is always the lingering chance that you will have a posse with one or two persons who are yelling out "bad" coaching instructions. I think we have in the rules enough latitude that should that occur, the TO has the ability to ask those folks to be quiet and to offer a reshoot to the shooter who was badly affected by the wrong commands. TOs just have to step up to their responsibility to be IN CONTROL of the stage. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 So I can see nobody read the ROC clarifications given during the TG meeting in December 2011. May I recall you the text? 13. Define who may "OFFICIALLY" coach the shooter. TO is the official coach. Spotter should assist the TO and coach for safety issues ( closed lever, casing in action,round count, etc) and knockdown targets I think this text is clear and is the direct answer to the question asked in this topic! That is a great approach. Unfortunately, TG discussions rarely make it back to clubs and shooters. This one didn't get relayed back to me, from either of the two TGs for clubs to which I belong. When something pretty important needs to be put into play in SASS, the rule book is the only reliable place to put this. Otherwise, it is just "cowboy legend" And, this comment is written as a suggestion. For it to be enforceable, it needs the wording of a rule and a specification of penalty when it is violated. Lots of work and hassle for a problem that I don't see as being very hard to handle within our current rules. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 The TO is the only "Official" from whom 'bad coaching' becomes grounds for a re-shoot. A spotter who yells, "ONE LEFT" and sends a shooter back to a gun or around the cylinders for 6 clicks DOES NOT cause a re-shoot if there isn't one left. In the instance of TO 'bad coaching' it has been argued for pages here that TO 'bad coaching is an actual impediment/interference with the shooter. But, spotter/gallery 'bad coaching' is NOT interference- it's noise. Similarly, a shooter that calls "SQUIB" and stops a string will NOT be awarded a re-shoot if there is no squib. But, a "SQUIB" called by a TO that has no round in the barrel is definitely grounds for a re-shoot. The rules don't prohibit others from yelling instructions during a course of fire, however, they do specifically provide remedy and assign accountability to both the TO and the Shooter. If 18 people are yelling "HULL" but the TO doesn't coach "HULL" there is no re-shoot if the hull is, in fact, out of the gun or the lever is, in fact, open enough to be open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying W Ramrod Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 So I can see noboby read the ROC clarifications given during the TG meeting en December 2011. May I recall you the text? 13. Define who may "OFFICIALLY" coach the shooter. TO is the official coach. Spotter should assist the TO and coach for safety issues ( closed lever, casing in action,round count, etc) and knockdown targets I think this text is clear and is the direct answer to the question asked in this topic! The ROC Clarifications rarely, if ever, get posted to the general membership and this clarification made it to the manuals. It means, to me, that the only "offical" coach is the TO, no appeals for coaching problems from any other coach will be entertained. Shooters will help anyone they can and it's up to the shooter to pick and choose. If this is going to be a "quiet in the gallery" sport, i'm outta here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I have a buddy who asks me to coach him at matches away from home at least until it can be figured out which TO's are capable of helping a fast shooter. I typically take the timer to do so, but if there's a timer hog on the button...oh well. As Goody pointed out, ...there are quite a few people that should never have the timer in their hand. I don't care how many classes you go to, if you don't pay close attention to everything the shooter is doing and stay a step ahead you are going to miss calls. The unfortunate reality is we will never be able to insure that every shooter has an equally qualified capable TO. IMO, having a RO badge does not necessarily qualify someone to be a TO. It's a step, but some people are simply not cut out for the job. I've seen excellent shooters who are terrible TO's and middle-of-the-road shooters who are excellent TO's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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