Dusty Balz, SASS#46599 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Subject: FW: COST OF RUNNING A CHEVY VOLT ---- car related info A good analysis of a Volt. A first year engineering student could have figured this out in about an hour and told them that the Volt as a loser – don’t build it. GM has demonstrated some real ignorance. WE BE SAVING MONEY! "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." Plato ‘- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cost to operate a Chevy Volt Eric Bolling (Fox Business Channel's Follow the Money) test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors. For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9 gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles. It will take you 4 1/2 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph. According to General Motors, the Volt battery hold 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so I looked up what I pay for electricity. I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine only that gets 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile. (note 32miles at $0.75 per mile equates to $23.68/gal. You can be assured the suppliers of gasoline can calculate this too. I can guess where the price-per-gal of gas is going as more of these battery cars are forced upon us by “regulation” via EPA, et al.) The gasoline powered car initially cost about $15,000 while the Volt costs $46,000. So the government wants us to pay 3 times as much for a car that costs more than 7 times as much to run and takes 3 times as long to drive across country. REALLY? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Logan #12252 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Grrrrrrrrrrr$&@?/$@&@&@& Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocWard Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 And don't forget the fact that the "green" cars end up being fueled in many places by coal fired power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FriscoCounty Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 So, I don't know where this guy lives, but $1.16/KwH is outrageous and I couldn't find any reference to substantiate that. I think he got a decimal point wrong. Here in California PG&E charges on a tiered basis. Baseline service is $0.128/KwH, Tier 4 is $0.335/KwH. If you get Time-of-Use metering, then off-peak (12AM-7AM) is $0.037/KwH and Tier 4 is $0.128/KwH. I have solar panels installed and my night time rate comes out to about $0.02/KwH. Using $0.037 as the cheapest and $0.335 as the most expensive, that yields recharge costs from $0.59 to $5.36, or per mile costs $0.024 to $.21. Gas is currently in the $4.00 to $4.50 / gallon range, again out here in California. At 32mpg, that's about $0.125/mi. That makes $0.20/KwH is the crossover point. If you can recharge the battery for less than that, electricity is cheaper. Most of my daily driving is 25 miles round trip or less and I get Time of Use metering. Based on that the volt will save me $75/month or so in gas. Over 10 years that is about $9,000. Doesn't make up for the $25,000 price difference (the Volt now costs ~$40,000). But, then again I doubt I would buy a $15,000 car. On the other hand anybody who would but a $15,000 car would not buy a $30,000 - $50,000 car, no matter what. Point is the Volt is not as ridiculous as this poster makes it out to be. Being American made, it is an alternative to the Prius. Now as for taking 3 times as long, what is he talking about? If he really thinks you have to stop driving for the day when the gas tank goes empty, that's not the only thing that is empty. You don't have to wait over night to refill the gas tank. Once you deplete the battery, it is just a 30+ mpg car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Balz, SASS#46599 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 You forgot the cost to replace the batteries every 3 years, I hear estimates of 3 to 4k, also what about disposal of used batteries, bet that good for the environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forty Rod SASS 3935 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 So, I don't know where this guy lives, but $1.16/KwH is outrageous and I couldn't find any reference to substantiate that. I think he got a decimal point wrong. Here in California PG&E charges on a tiered basis. Baseline service is $0.128/KwH, Tier 4 is $0.335/KwH. If you get Time-of-Use metering, then off-peak (12AM-7AM) is $0.037/KwH and Tier 4 is $0.128/KwH. I have solar panels installed and my night time rate comes out to about $0.02/KwH. Using $0.037 as the cheapest and $0.335 as the most expensive, that yields recharge costs from $0.59 to $5.36, or per mile costs $0.024 to $.21. Gas is currently in the $4.00 to $4.50 / gallon range, again out here in California. At 32mpg, that's about $0.125/mi. That makes $0.20/KwH is the crossover point. If you can recharge the battery for less than that, electricity is cheaper. Most of my daily driving is 25 miles round trip or less and I get Time of Use metering. Based on that the volt will save me $75/month or so in gas. Over 10 years that is about $9,000. Doesn't make up for the $25,000 price difference (the Volt now costs ~$40,000). But, then again I doubt I would buy a $15,000 car. On the other hand anybody who would but a $15,000 car would not buy a $30,000 - $50,000 car, no matter what. Point is the Volt is not as ridiculous as this poster makes it out to be. Being American made, it is an alternative to the Prius. Now as for taking 3 times as long, what is he talking about? If he really thinks you have to stop driving for the day when the gas tank goes empty, that's not the only thing that is empty. You don't have to wait over night to refill the gas tank. Once you deplete the battery, it is just a 30+ mpg car. Neither one is a viable option for most people and won't be in the near future. When I can get comparable performance and duration at a comparable cost, I MIGHT consider one. Until then they are a rich greenie's plaything. And yeah, I do have experience with them. My son-in-law drives a Ford hybrid and I wouldn't have the thing as a gift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Kajun Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I am an electrical engineer who works for a power distribution utility....so I read this with interest. FriscoCounty, I would think you are correct....they missed a decimal point. Your time of use (TOU) rate sounds about right and you are to be commended for solar panel installation...as time goes by more folks will see the wisdom of that. Electric cars pose an interesting paradox. The initial cost of the electric cars is pretty high now because the R&D costs have not yet been recovered by the makers of such vehicles. The first cost of these will begin to drop as they become more mainstream. Also the range will increase as battery technologies advance....the storage rates of batteries is just not efficient enough to justify such a high expense. Early adopters of electric vehicles tend to be more affluent and justify the high cost by offsetting it with tax breaks currently being offered for such purchases. IMHO, even with the tax breaks the first cost is still prohibitive for the main stream car purchaser. As far as charging times they can be reduced in some cases by using a higher rate charger. The problem with using a higher rate charger is that it takes more power (KW) to do that....a higher amp draw is required. Most electric vehicle chargers are 220v. If electric vehicles are to become more mainstream most homeowners are going to have to have another 220v circuit added to their breaker box to accommodate it or "partner" the charger with another existing 220v circuit such as an electric dryer. You'd have to put a switch on it so that you can only run the charger or dryer at the same time. And....if electric cars become widely adopted the electric utilities face a problem of load peak shifting. If homeowners all charge their cars at night the simultaneous use of these will cause a peak load condition at night. Also, TOU rate basis will now shift as well. The intent of TOU rates is to encourage the use of electricity to occur when the cost of generation is at its lowest...that would be off peak...which is at night in most areas. The larger generation units are run 24 x 7 and are called baseload units...they typically have a lower cost per kwh to run them based upon their fuel source...mostly nuclear and coal...and in some cases gas. Smaller, less efficient generation units (peaking units) are cycled on as load increases and they have an incrementally higher cost to run due to fuel costs. So...if the electric companies have to run peaking units at night to cover the increased load due to electric vehicle charging then TOU rates could shift. Utilities will have to beef up their electric systems to handle the additional load, this means larger wire and transformers....someone has to pay for that so rates will have to increase marginally to cover that cost. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Two things come to my mind about this. 1. In 1973 I believe it was, Mr. Arab decided to boycott the good ole USA and refused to sell us oil. We had lines at the pump with people willing to pay any amount to get gasoline. Some of your younger folks may not remember it. Prices on everything skyrocketed. Gasoline, locally, went from around $0.40 cents a gallon to a whopping $2.00 a gallon. The economy came to a slow down very fast. The folks in the government were all flustered and bubble about finding a way out of this dilemma. That was thirty nine years ago. We still have the same problem. 2. If the American people had demanded that the automobile makers find a better way, we would have something more efficient than the internal combustion engine. And I doubt that we would be cursed with some kind of cross over technology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Bob #61228 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 If you want good gas mileage, go buy a Ford Fiesta for about 14k. Gets 40 mpg and you can get it in a straight shift. Even if the battery is dead and the thing won't crank, you can still roll it off. Get some hippy beads and a couple of Green Peace bumper stickers and you'll be all set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 They do make a good case for the OLD VW BEETLE. Little four banger with no frills. Got from point A to point B with no problem. First one I had, didn't have a gas gauge. If you forgot to switch it back over to full tank you were screwed when it ran out. Made for a real education for you fellows right quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouchy Greg, SASS#71981 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 They do make a good case for the OLD VW BEETLE. Little four banger with no frills. Got from point A to point B with no problem. First one I had, didn't have a gas gauge. If you forgot to switch it back over to full tank you were screwed when it ran out. Made for a real education for you fellows right quick. ===================================================== I had a '61 beetle like that the last couple of years I was in the Air Force. Didn't have a radio either. The heat control cable broke once in the dead of winter and I had to wire the dampers closed with coat hanger wire so I could have heat in it till payday rolled around and I could fix it. Another time the throttle cable broke on the way back from my girlfriend's house in Alexandria about 0200 in the morning, and I had to wedge the throttle linkage open with a matchbook so I could limp back to base at about 25 mph. That was another wait-till-payday fix. I used to drive it down muddy and rutted woods roads on hunting and fishing trips like it was a 4WD. The underside of it was like one big skid pan. It was great in snow too. I also jammed 7 of us young, slim and trim Air Force guys in it to go bar hopping in D.C. one night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 GM has demonstrated some real ignorance. No they haven't. They get a hefty subsidy and tax write off to build it, not to mention the tax credit buyers get. In the big picture, GM isn't losing a dime. Taxpayers are footing the bill and most are too ignorant to know it. Those that do can't do a thing about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 If you want good gas mileage, go buy a Ford Fiesta for about 14k. Gets 40 mpg and you can get it in a straight shift. Even if the battery is dead and the thing won't crank, you can still roll it off. Get some hippy beads and a couple of Green Peace bumper stickers and you'll be all set. Sadly, that Fiesta will not run with a dead battery. It has electronic fuel injection that WILL NOT work under extremely low, and no voltage conditions. Considering those factors, you'd be better off with a GEO Metro at nearly 60 mpg and a carburetor that you can fix yourself!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Four-Eyed Buck,SASS #14795 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 First new car I ever owned was a 70 Beetle. One heck of a car, no problem with the heater system once you learned how to work it right.Later i had a 71 Super beetle, what hunk of junk. Early McPherson front suspension, wasn't up to the task Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S. Quentin Quale, Esq. SASS 9953 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I've yet to read a single article that fairly assesses electric and hybrid vehicles in the context of daily use. They are either peans to the wisdom of such things or some sort of double-dog damnation. Then I found this: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/new-study-chinas-electric-cars-contribute-more-to-pollution-than-gas-guzzlers/ It was a quick note on the local news a week or so ago. Then it just disapeared. Thank you, Krazy Kajun, for a very informative look at part of this "big picture." Enterprise Rent-a-Car rents the Prius in some places. I wonder what their costs per mile are? For American use in anyplace outside the big cities of the North East the electric car is likely going to be a non-starter. The jury is still out on the hybrid. SQQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellowhouse Sam # 25171 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 With the 73 Embargo GM engineering marvels leapt to the rescue of wailing citizens pleading for relief and gave us.........the Vega. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Kajun Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 With the 73 Embargo GM engineering marvels leapt to the rescue of wailing citizens pleading for relief and gave us.........the Vega. Well, it was either that or the Pinto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 What a pair to draw to. I car pooled with a guy that had a Pinto. I had a Datsun. We switched off. My Datsun felt like a Cadillac next to his Pinto. Well, an old Cadillac. That Pinto was like a log wagon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellowhouse Sam # 25171 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Ha! I see your Pinto and raise you a chevy Cavalier! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apache Hawk 60642 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 What a pair to draw to. I car pooled with a guy that had a Pinto. I had a Datsun. We switched off. My Datsun felt like a Cadillac next to his Pinto. Well, an old Cadillac. That Pinto was like a log wagon. Got behind a 18 wheeler moving van this morning and it had a 1977 ( I think ) Ford Pinto and was followed by a Ford Maverick ! Talk about time travel !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Hanger #3720LR Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Some more fun facts. If all the government subsidies are included, the cost per car is more like $250,000+ each. interesting article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Houston # 35508 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Yea, but will it pull my 26 foot travel trailer or my 6x12 cargo trailer???? Electric cars are fine for people who live in BIG City's, not out in the country! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 The diesel versions of the Ford Fiesta and Focus get 65MPG. Unfortunately they are for sale only in Europe. Phooey. Last year somebody tested an electric car in a Cleveland winter. I think it was a Nissan Leaf. It went a whole 14 miles before crapping out. Maybe they should revive the Baker Electric ... http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/at-the-garage/electric/1909-baker-electric/ By the way, when the Department of Energy was created back in 1977, wasn't its mission to develop more energy sources? After 35 years, what have they done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Kajun Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 By the way, when the Department of Energy was created back in 1977, wasn't its mission to develop more energy sources? After 35 years, what have they done? I think the only energy sources the DOE actually developed was a larger supply of hot air and a little more heat by burning our tax dollars....all I can come up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I HAVE THE SOLUTION! Extract all Of the hot air from the politicians, tank it and run THE VOLT on compressed air. HOLD THEIR FEET TO THE FIRE AND GET A SOLUTION. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Dan Troop 70448 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Local story on the Volt, reporter took one for a weeks drive. First day out she drove it to a Wal-Mart 15.5 miles, when it came time to drive it home, batteries dead. 2nd day a drive to the studio 20 miles away, stopped dead after 17 miles. She also found out, it needs Premiun Gas, not Regular which added 17 cents a gallon. Inconvenience of pulling cord out, attaching to charger, then in morning coiling cord up into a very confined area. She wasn't a happy camper nor sold on this vehicle. She also wondered how good an electric car would be in colder regions since cold plays a factor on battery life. Heating, cooling, convenience drain on batteries like radio, navigation systems etc.? Also replacement cost? Cost to charge outside home? MT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 While the Greenies are getting all amped up over the Volt, let's hop in the Wayback Machine for a moment. Ferdinand Porsche, 1898 ... http://www.hybrid-vehicle.org/hybrid-vehicle-porsche.html Henri Pieper (the Belgian gunmaker), 1909 ... http://www.hybridcars.com/history/100th-anniversary-first-us-hybrid-car-patent-25616.html I'd really like to know how they expect people to charge these things anyway. Thanks to the EPA, Edison is closing six coal-fired power plants here in northern Ohio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Phil Peeno #50923 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 There was one time where a SMART car pretty much died in a restaurant parking lot. The owners didn't have a way to charge the batteries. I could have put the car in my truck bed but I didn't want to look stupid hauling a SMART car in my 13mpg gas hog truck. Funny moment. Can you jump start an electric car? I remember the day I switched from manual to automatic transmission. I didn't like that I lost the ability to push start when my battery is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FriscoCounty Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 There was one time where a SMART car pretty much died in a restaurant parking lot. The owners didn't have a way to charge the batteries. I could have put the car in my truck bed but I didn't want to look stupid hauling a SMART car in my 13mpg gas hog truck. Funny moment. Can you jump start an electric car? I remember the day I switched from manual to automatic transmission. I didn't like that I lost the ability to push start when my battery is dead. A pure electric car, like the leaf, no. A hybrid, which the Volt is, yes. It has a conventional car battery for the engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneaky Gun Runner SASS 79775 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 My brother had a Vega wagon and he loved it and I really enjoyed it as well. When he got that 350 installed it was a great car. Man, it was that ugly green though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 The diesel versions of the Ford Fiesta and Focus get 65MPG. Unfortunately they are for sale only in Europe. Phooey. Last year somebody tested an electric car in a Cleveland winter. I think it was a Nissan Leaf. It went a whole 14 miles before crapping out. Maybe they should revive the Baker Electric ... http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/at-the-garage/electric/1909-baker-electric/ By the way, when the Department of Energy was created back in 1977, wasn't its mission to develop more energy sources? After 35 years, what have they done? Yeah... the Euro's get a lot of neat stuff we can't have. Remember when Diesel fuel was cheap....? The cost of removing most of the sulfer drove the price WAY up... and now they want to do the same with gasoline - most has already been removed, but the last millisquidgens the greenies want out will create a major hiccup in the pump cost. On the DOE.... we need a president to make a Kennedy-like "Gonna put a man on the moon!" type mandate, and charge the DOE with making it happen. Oh... and by the way... don't forget the "Sales Tax Windfall" some state gub'mints get whenever the pump price shoots up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forty Rod SASS 3935 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 They do make a good case for the OLD VW BEETLE. Little four banger with no frills. Got from point A to point B with no problem. First one I had, didn't have a gas gauge. If you forgot to switch it back over to full tank you were screwed when it ran out. Made for a real education for you fellows right quick. The guy across the street has a '71 that he bought a month or so ago. He's restoring it for his grandsons high school graduation present. I went out one Saturday morning and helped him lift the engine out. He took it apart, replaced some odds and ends, put it back together, and I helped him lift it back in after supper. He fired it up tuned it, and drove it around the neighborhood before going to bed that night...all with mostly common garage tools. And there ain't a computer component in the whole shooteree! I'll ask him about the mileage one of these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forty Rod SASS 3935 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 ===================================================== I had a '61 beetle like that the last couple of years I was in the Air Force. Didn't have a radio either. The heat control cable broke once in the dead of winter and I had to wire the dampers closed with coat hanger wire so I could have heat in it till payday rolled around and I could fix it. Another time the throttle cable broke on the way back from my girlfriend's house in Alexandria about 0200 in the morning, and I had to wedge the throttle linkage open with a matchbook so I could limp back to base at about 25 mph. That was another wait-till-payday fix. I used to drive it down muddy and rutted woods roads on hunting and fishing trips like it was a 4WD. The underside of it was like one big skid pan. It was great in snow too. I also jammed 7 of us young, slim and trim Air Force guys in it to go bar hopping in D.C. one night. Used to be a saying up in the Rockies that you could drive as far as your truck and trailer could go, unload and ride your horse as far as he could go, then hike, climb, and clamber up and over until you got to the top.....and you'd find some college kid and his girlfriend who'd driven up there in a Volkswagen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forty Rod SASS 3935 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 With the 73 Embargo GM engineering marvels leapt to the rescue of wailing citizens pleading for relief and gave us.........the Vega. My Vega delivery sedan was the coolest looking car I ever owned that would run worth a damn. After about four months I sold it to a sucker...a fella who wanted it for his kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 My wife drives one of the newer beetles. It ain't the same car. The first one (VW) I had was a '59 bug, I believe. It would diesel when ever you shut it down. My wife swore it was trying to throw her out because it was jealous. There was a lot to be learned from that technology. Of course we didn't have all the frills that are needed in todays cars, like heaters, defrosters, heated seats.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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