you make the call

[Noz]

Now Miss Allie. I did not say he did it properly, the fact that he had the skill to do it at all is the point. He, of course you know, frequently shoots but does not compete. this was the case here.

 

And he shot it 1=2=3=4=5, 5=4=3=2=1. Now where in the stage design does it say he couldn't do it at the same time.

[Jacknife]

Now Noz,

 

If I understand correctly, he shot 1-5-2-4-3-3-2-4-1-5 (I think), which would earn a P. A GF cannot shoot the targets differently than anyone else.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

"called for 12345 with one gun and 54321 with the other", correct? Did not say "12345 with one gun, THEN 54321 with the other." What ya think?

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

I saw the video of T-Bone shooting it that was--Awesome!

Especially when he crossed his arms and still hit the targets!

Made me whoop with joy!

--Dawg

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

"called for 12345 with one gun and 54321 with the other", correct? Did not say "12345 with one gun, THEN 54321 with the other." What ya think?

Hi Jackie,

 

From p. 13 of the SHB. "The Gunfighter shall shoot the targets in exactly the same sequence as prescribed in the stage scenario."

 

As I see it TBone shot, "1-5-2-4-3-3-2-4-1-5" not 12345 and 54321 as called for. We look at the targets not the guns. GF must engage the targets in the same order as everyone else. If someone shooting one gun at a time shot 1-5-2-4-3, holstered and shot 3-2-4-1-5, they would get a P. Same difference.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Now Miss Allie. I did not say he did it properly, the fact that he had the skill to do it at all is the point. He, of course you know, frequently shoots but does not compete. this was the case here.

 

And he shot it 1=2=3=4=5, 5=4=3=2=1. Now where in the stage design does it say he couldn't do it at the same time.

Because it would not be 12345, 54321, it would be 1-5-2-4-3-3-2-4-1-5 when looking at how the targets were engaged. We don't care about which gun he shot where as long as one is in the left hand and one is in the right hand and the targets are engaged the same as everyone else could. Please see my previous post.

 

I sure hope PWB shows up.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I know I cannot spot as well as some of the younger folks but I do try, except when a double cocker gunfighter comes to the line. I then hand off my stick.

Say a simple sequence of 1-3-5-2-4 and do it twice for 10 rounds. If you are shooting both guns together, I have a great deal of difficulty figuring out if in fact you are shooting the correct sequence or simply blasting away and hoping for confusion.

 

Now Dawg, I watched TBone shoot a stage at the Bayou Blast last year that called for 1-2-3-4-5 with one gun and 5-4-3-2-1 with the other. He did both sweeps at the same time. Awesome! Only because we were warned what he was going to do could we actually do a fair job of spotting.

 

 

 

Actually, ifn ya want to get real technical, you could use your 1st pistol and shoot the 5-4-3-2-1 first because stage instructions didn't specify 'first pistol or first 5-shots'. It just stated that one pistol had to be used to engage 1-2-3-4-5 and the other pistol 5-4-3-2-1.

 

Could that be correct Noz?

 

p.s. - JEDI Salute to T-Bone!

 

..........Widder

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Actually, ifn ya want to get real technical, you could use your 1st pistol and shoot the 5-4-3-2-1 first because stage instructions didn't specify 'first pistol or first 5-shots'. It just stated that one pistol had to be used to engage 1-2-3-4-5 and the other pistol 5-4-3-2-1.

 

Could that be correct Noz?

 

p.s. - JEDI Salute to T-Bone!

 

..........Widder

 

...are we having FUN yet?

 

GG ~

[Kid Ziggy SASS 76870]

As a double cocker GFer, I am used to getting confused looks from the spotters and very seldom do they agree with each other. I try to shoot pairs rather than alternate and change leads instead of crossing myself. I get far more bad calls than good ... so be it. However, there are bad spotters who don't do their part and I should not have to change my game to accomodate a bad spotter.

 

The benefit is supposed to go to the shooter. If the word "think" even enters a spotters mind, he or she should call that shot a hit. The spotters should not confer with each other to try and come to a concensus. That is the T.O.(s)job. The problem (IMHO) is most spotters like to watch the Gun fighter shooters instead of the targets. Those who watch the targets and listen for the dings seldom get any calls wrong.

 

If you have trouble spotting for gunfighters then you should ask to be relieved and have someone else spot. There is no other category where there are written rules to accomodate poor spotters. As mentioned above, we have timers that can easily discern the number of shots fired (despite Maurauder making a very good point).

 

My 1-cent

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Just for the record, T-Bone was shooting outlaw.

[Larry Earp SASS#60034]

You guys are going to ruin my favorite gamer trick on double tap sweeps. I only load one gun with 5 live rounds and then put 5 fired rounds in the other one. That way I can say I fired 10 rounds when I only fired 5. It's a lot faster and I only have to concentrate on hitting 5 targets with my strong hand. If I get questioned I can show 10 empty rounds being fired. Gives me both speed and accuracy. Now if you start getting picky on having to hear both shots I'm going to have to start playing fair.

 

(I hope no one takes this seriously)

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

It does make spotting difficult.....it also makes it impossible to count shots......I have seen several gunfighters get told they had one more in their pistols when they fired both guns simultaneously during the string......

 

and for you fellars that are trying to argue that you can shoot two sweeps at the same time as a gunfighter.....come on....you know that the right. has to be 1,2,3,4,5,5,4,3,2,1 or 5,4,3,2,1,1,2,3,4,5 depending on the wording.....

 

Stan

[Waimea]

You guys are going to ruin my favorite gamer trick on double tap sweeps. I only load one gun with 5 live rounds and then put 5 fired rounds in the other one. That way I can say I fired 10 rounds when I only fired 5. It's a lot faster and I only have to concentrate on hitting 5 targets with my strong hand. If I get questioned I can show 10 empty rounds being fired. Gives me both speed and accuracy. Now if you start getting picky on having to hear both shots I'm going to have to start playing fair.

 

(I hope no one takes this seriously)

 

I'm going to volunteer for loading table duties from now on.

 

Waimea

 

[Anvil Al #59168]

Now Noz,

 

Who did that is irrelevant, even TBone can be mistaken.

 

If I understand correctly, he shot 1-5-2-4-3-3-2-4-1-5 (I think), which would earn a P. A GF cannot shoot the targets differently than anyone else. With your/his logic, a GF could double tap sweep if a scenario said sweep. We've gone over that one before and it is not appropriate.

 

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

 

Have seen him do things like that many times. A lot of times. He will turn around right before he starts, and tell

them to just go ahead and give him the P with that evil grin.

Then you know he is getting ready to put on a display that will make you shake your head and ask

how did he do that.

[Gawd Awful]

You hear 5 shots when 10 are called for, then the assumption is that 5 shots were fired. Hence 5 misses. If shooter says he fired 10 and pulled triggers together, shooter violated category rules, and gets a P. Pretty cut and dried IF less than 10 shots were heard.

 

 

is it still "cut and dry" if its a 10 shot dump and the Timer registers 24 shots on a 10-10-4 stage? or how about if its the first shooter of the day and you can clearly see 10 marks on the pistol targets and the timer shows 24 shots? or 10 pistol fallers that are all down? or how about a plate rack with 6 plates knocked down but the spotters only heard 3 or 4 or 5 shots on the plate rack? Remember the Bennifit ALWAYS goes to the SHOOTER..... If you THINK its a MISS its a hit how is an ASSUMPTION any Different than Thinking?????? It is definetly harder to spot a fast gunfighter who double cocks, and they are flirting with bad calls and confused spotters if they choose to doubletap as quick as possible but is it fair to penelize them for spotters who are listening to the shooter and not watching the targets?

 

and yes I have shot all the above senerios more than once

 

 

the rulebook also says to avoid double taps with a double I have shot with shooters who can make 2 shots from a double sound like one shot and still knock down 2 fallers that are 8 inches apart is that also a "P" ?????

[Gawd Awful]

As a double cocker GFer, I am used to getting confused looks from the spotters and very seldom do they agree with each other. I try to shoot pairs rather than alternate and change leads instead of crossing myself. I get far more bad calls than good ... so be it. However, there are bad spotters who don't do their part and I should not have to change my game to accomodate a bad spotter.

 

The benefit is supposed to go to the shooter. If the word "think" even enters a spotters mind, he or she should call that shot a hit. The spotters should not confer with each other to try and come to a concensus. That is the T.O.(s)job. The problem (IMHO) is most spotters like to watch the Gun fighter shooters instead of the targets. Those who watch the targets and listen for the dings seldom get any calls wrong.

 

If you have trouble spotting for gunfighters then you should ask to be relieved and have someone else spot. There is no other category where there are written rules to accomodate poor spotters. As mentioned above, we have timers that can easily discern the number of shots fired (despite Maurauder making a very good point).

 

My 1-cent

 

Wwll Said

[Carolina Gunslinger]

Thank you for the links to the video. That gentleman sure knows what he's doing. Regardless of the legality of it...videos like that will court younger shooters to the sport. My hat's off to you T-bone...now to practice this gunfighter business...

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

We've got a stupid swinger that befuddles my left hand. I usually knock it of the post to start swinging with 2 reeeeel close together. At least I know I've got 2 hits!

 

CR

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

I saw the video of T-Bone shooting it that was--Awesome!

Especially when he crossed his arms and still hit the targets!

Made me whoop with joy!

--Dawg

 

 

I be whoppin' too

 

GG ~

[Gawd Awful]

T-Bone has a talent that is scary quick and fun to watch

[Captain Bill Burt]

 

 

is it still "cut and dry" if its a 10 shot dump and the Timer registers 24 shots on a 10-10-4 stage? or how about if its the first shooter of the day and you can clearly see 10 marks on the pistol targets and the timer shows 24 shots? or 10 pistol fallers that are all down? or how about a plate rack with 6 plates knocked down but the spotters only heard 3 or 4 or 5 shots on the plate rack? Remember the Bennifit ALWAYS goes to the SHOOTER..... If you THINK its a MISS its a hit how is an ASSUMPTION any Different than Thinking?????? It is definetly harder to spot a fast gunfighter who double cocks, and they are flirting with bad calls and confused spotters if they choose to doubletap as quick as possible but is it fair to penelize them for spotters who are listening to the shooter and not watching the targets?

 

and yes I have shot all the above senerios more than once

 

 

the rulebook also says to avoid double taps with a double I have shot with shooters who can make 2 shots from a double sound like one shot and still knock down 2 fallers that are 8 inches apart is that also a "P" ?????

The rules state that a gunfighter may not fire both revolvers at the same time. If a shooter is fast enough to knock down two reactive targets with shots spaced closely enough to sound as if they were a single shot the spotters can still determine they were not in fact shot at the same time, the target spacing prohibited that. Interpreting the rule as you suggest would effectively nullify the rule.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

 

the rulebook also says to avoid double taps with a double I have shot with shooters who can make 2 shots from a double sound like one shot and still knock down 2 fallers that are 8 inches apart is that also a "P" ?????

 

This is in reference to STAGE DESIGN.....both references i found talk about double taps with the shotgun being poor stage design.....no where is it written that pulling both triggers on the double is a no-no (that I can find).

 

It is however written in plain English that for a Gunfighter "both revolvers may be cocked at the same time, but must be shot one at a time to facilitate scoring.".....

 

IMHO.....since we use a timer to do the scoring then that should be used as the determining factor......If a gunfighter chooses to push the edge of the envelope then they forgo the right to cry "Benefit of the Doubt".....IF the shot timer does not catch all 10 shots. I have a timer that can go as low as .08 splits and at that speed two distinctive shots are hard to discern for most folks.....but not everyone. My Pact Timer only goes to .10......Plus the position of the TO with the timer may have an effect on the number of shots picked up by the timer.

 

It's a RISK / REWARD situation that each double cocker has to take into consideration.....Flirt with the rules of YOUR category and it may bite you......

 

Stan

 

 

PS.....Benefit of the Doubt is way over used

 

[Carolina Gunslinger]

This is in reference to STAGE DESIGN.....both references i found talk about double taps with the shotgun being poor stage design.....no where is it written that pulling both triggers on the double is a no-no (that I can find).

 

It is however written in plain English that for a Gunfighter "both revolvers may be cocked at the same time, but must be shot one at a time to facilitate scoring.".....

 

IMHO.....since we use a timer to do the scoring then that should be used as the determining factor......If a gunfighter chooses to push the edge of the envelope then they forgo the right to cry "Benefit of the Doubt".....IF the shot timer does not catch all 10 shots. I have a timer that can go as low as .08 splits and at that speed two distinctive shots are hard to discern for most folks.....but not everyone. My Pact Timer only goes to .10......Plus the position of the TO with the timer may have an effect on the number of shots picked up by the timer.

 

It's a RISK / REWARD situation that each double cocker has to take into consideration.....Flirt with the rules of YOUR category and it may bite you......

 

Stan

 

 

PS.....Benefit of the Doubt is way over used

 

What happens when the timer doesn't catch all of the shots? Simple. It doesn't catch all of the shots. As long as it catches the last shot it should not matter. Let the boys and girls at the loading and unloading table figure out the number of shells going in and out of the gun. All of the good shooters seem to flirt with the rules. It is important not to see those who are more capable as villainous because we are not as capable. I once heard a respected TO say the only way to make top classifcation in another sport was to cheat on the classifier. This particular individual was definitely frustrated with his own inability to make the grade and then and there lost my respect, but taught me an important lesson. I went on to recieve cheesy calls from said individual as my skill level increased beyond his limit for me.

[Captain Bill Burt]

I could be wrong, but I don't believe that the rule about not shooting both revolvers at once was meant to be interpreted as meaning that as long as a machine exists that is capable of verifying the shots were not simultaneous the shooter is conforming with the rule. We don't have instant replay and super slow motion in SASS, nor should we. Humans judge misses and procedurals and if an attentive experienced human is incapable of distinguishing that the shots were not simultaneous then the shooter has violated the rule. The number of hits on a target is irrelevant as that has nothing to do with whether a shooter fired both revolvers at the same time.

 

It seems to me as if the real argument some are presenting here is that the rule shouldn't exist in the first place. If so why not state that clearly rather than suggest any number of approaches that would allow a shooter to fire revolvers within a nano or pico second of each other then prove it over the next five, ten, twenty minutes while the 'ref' has his head under the hood reviewing the video, or audio?

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

99% of double cockers don't come close to breaking the rule. Double cocking in and of itself is NOT the problem. The rule is not directed at the 99%, but instead at the 1% who do it...knowing they're doing it...who do it for a competitive advantage...and are counting on nobody having the guts to call it.

 

The above should not be confused with what T- Bone does.

 

Regarding T-Bone: He's an alien, in my opinion the most instinctive shooter I have ever seen who does not make a living shooting for a sponsor. As has been stated, when he does such things, he is aware of the penalty for doing so. I am of the opinion that he does such to intentionally remove himself from the competition to allow others to win. I have accused him directly of such, but of course he denies, denies, denies...all the time with a big grin. The man has has proven that he can win at will and now finds more joy in helping others win than in winning himself. I wonder how many others noted a particular match where he was "DQ'd." He didn't win Classic Cowboy and he didn't win Outlaw...because he was "DQ'd."

 

Classic T-Bone: "I'd rather help a friend become a world champion than to be a world champion with no friends."

 

 

 

 

 

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

TBone is a great man!

 

I wish this discussion had not named names when discussing a shooting string. It only confuses things when discussing rules. Who did what is irrelevant! It's about what was done and how does that fit into the rules that fits into a "you make the call thread."

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Missouri Marshal SASS #50682]

Folks are making this way too hard. The Rule states

 

"Both revolvers may be cocked at the same time, but must be shot one at a time to facilitate

scoring."

 

If the TO and spotters can not distinguish the shots by sight or hearing to facilitate scoring then the shooter is not adhering to the guidelines of their category.

 

The violation is "Failure to adhere to the guidelines of the category in which you are competing."

 

The penalty is a progressive one.

 

1st offence is a Procedural, 2nd offence is a SDQ, third offence is a MDQ

 

Let's keep this simple.

 

Oh, Cockroach, you don't have to "SEE" a miss. If there is no sound of a hit, no movement of the target or no visual impact on the target then it is a miss. Where the bullet impacted doesn't matter. Some places don't have burms the miss could have gone accross the country or in the trees.

[Max Montana, SASS #23907]

This is in reference to STAGE DESIGN.....both references i found talk about double taps with the shotgun being poor stage design.....no where is it written that pulling both triggers on the double is a no-no (that I can find).

 

It is however written in plain English that for a Gunfighter "both revolvers may be cocked at the same time, but must be shot one at a time to facilitate scoring.".....

 

IMHO.....since we use a timer to do the scoring then that should be used as the determining factor......If a gunfighter chooses to push the edge of the envelope then they forgo the right to cry "Benefit of the Doubt".....IF the shot timer does not catch all 10 shots. I have a timer that can go as low as .08 splits and at that speed two distinctive shots are hard to discern for most folks.....but not everyone. My Pact Timer only goes to .10......Plus the position of the TO with the timer may have an effect on the number of shots picked up by the timer.

 

It's a RISK / REWARD situation that each double cocker has to take into consideration.....Flirt with the rules of YOUR category and it may bite you......

 

Stan

 

 

PS.....Benefit of the Doubt is way over used

 

 

Stan I totally agree with your intent, but the timing device is to imprecise to be used to make this call. Too many times the timer will record 2 shots from 1 gun as only one shot. Likewise enviromental conditions affect the timing device. Even the method of holding the device has an effect. On the other hand, the call is easy. I may not be able to describe it in words, but when I see it and hear it I know what it is. It just doesn't occur that often. And when it does it is usually insignificant to making a spotting call.

 

This thread deals with the issue of it being repeatedly done for entire shot strings over multiple stages. I venture to say that has never happened.

But, if it were to, then the rules are very clear on how to handle it.

 

No changes need to be made.

[Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator]

Folks are making this way too hard. The Rule states

 

"Both revolvers may be cocked at the same time, but must be shot one at a time to facilitate

scoring."

 

If the TO and spotters can not distinguish the shots by sight or hearing to facilitate scoring then the shooter is not adhering to the guidelines of their category.

 

The violation is "Failure to adhere to the guidelines of the category in which you are competing."

 

The penalty is a progressive one.

 

1st offence is a Procedural, 2nd offence is a SDQ, third offence is a MDQ

 

Let's keep this simple.

 

Oh, Cockroach, you don't have to "SEE" a miss. If there is no sound of a hit, no movement of the target or no visual impact on the target then it is a miss. Where the bullet impacted doesn't matter. Some places don't have burms the miss could have gone accross the country or in the trees.

 

 

+1

[J-BAR #18287]

I was thinking about shooting Gunfighter again this coming weekend for the first time in about 5 years, but you folks have talked me out of it.

 

Thanks.

 

I guess.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

I was thinking about shooting Gunfighter again this coming weekend for the first time in about 5 years, but you folks have talked me out of it.

 

Thanks.

 

I guess.

 

Why let some thread on the SASS Wire stop you from shooting Gunfighter? ~ Go for it!

 

GG ~

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Folks are making this way too hard. The Rule states

 

"Both revolvers may be cocked at the same time, but must be shot one at a time to facilitate

scoring."

 

If the TO and spotters can not distinguish the shots by sight or hearing to facilitate scoring then the shooter is not adhering to the guidelines of their category.

 

The violation is "Failure to adhere to the guidelines of the category in which you are competing."

 

The penalty is a progressive one.

 

1st offence is a Procedural, 2nd offence is a SDQ, third offence is a MDQ

 

Let's keep this simple.

 

Ta Daaa!! Yep, way over thinking it, let's keep it simple

 

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100]

MM;

 

Your second statement contradicts the first

 

"Oh, Cockroach, you don't have to "SEE" a miss. If there is no sound of a hit, no movement of the target or no visual impact on the target then it is a miss. Where the bullet impacted doesn't matter. Some places don't have burms the miss could have gone accross the country or in the trees. "

If there is no movement of the target or no visual impact on the target, then you concluded a miss by seeing - hence, you have seen a miss.

You must have assumed I was suggesting a berm impact as seeing a miss. Which is not the case. A shooter can have berm impact with an edge hit. A berm impact should not be used a evidence of a miss. The Spotter must always focus on the Target. The Target contains the evidence of a hit or miss.

I question the use of sound as primary evidence of hit or miss. A bullet hitting a metal target stand will make a sound - which is a miss. Sound as an assist to the Spotter is fine but sound alone can be deceiving. The Spotter must simply watch the Target, intently.

At least, that's how I see it.

[J-BAR #18287]

Why let some thread on the SASS Wire stop you from shooting Gunfighter? ~ Go for it!

 

GG ~

 

 

Quite a few more ways to screw up it sounds like...guess I will stick with pounding round balls into black powder.

[Jasper Agate]

We don't do it to confuse the spotters.

We do it cuz it is just Too Cool!!!

I love to do it to both end targets at once, when the stage is written so I can.

I usually preface it by saying "Hey!"

Who am I?

Why Jake in Silverado, of course!

 

Hey, I'm a big kid playing a kid's game & if I get penalized for it -- WHO CARES!!!!!

 

Prairie (what loves to shoot 'em both at the same time) Dawg

Nicely said +1 here

[Missouri Marshal SASS #50682]

MM;

 

Your second statement contradicts the first

 

"Oh, Cockroach, you don't have to "SEE" a miss. If there is no sound of a hit, no movement of the target or no visual impact on the target then it is a miss. Where the bullet impacted doesn't matter. Some places don't have burms the miss could have gone accross the country or in the trees. "

If there is no movement of the target or no visual impact on the target, then you concluded a miss by seeing - hence, you have seen a miss.

You must have assumed I was suggesting a berm impact as seeing a miss. Which is not the case. A shooter can have berm impact with an edge hit. A berm impact should not be used a evidence of a miss. The Spotter must always focus on the Target. The Target contains the evidence of a hit or miss.

I question the use of sound as primary evidence of hit or miss. A bullet hitting a metal target stand will make a sound - which is a miss. Sound as an assist to the Spotter is fine but sound alone can be deceiving. The Spotter must simply watch the Target, intently.

At least, that's how I see it.

 

Cockroach, I stand corrected. When you stated that you must see the miss I inferred that you meant you had to see the bullet impact somewhere other than the target. There are some folks out there that believe that.