Opening my 44-40

[St. Louis Suomi SASS #31905]

Howdy:

 

I have a Ruger 44-40. A month ago or so I sent it back to Ruger to be opened up - TWO OF THE CHAMBERS IN THE CYLINDER WERE JUST TOO TIGHT - I got it back (well, they swapped it for another brand new cylinder. Great! Only now I have three chambers that are just too tight.

 

OK, I have had it - sending it off to Cylindersmith to have the chamber throats opened to .430 -Hopefully that will cure the problem once and for all. Has anyone else done this and if so, how did it work out for you?

 

STL Suomi

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

Ruger cylinder throats are notoriously tight.

 

When I first got mine in 45 Colt, accuracy was terrible, I had leading problems, and was kind of frustrated with them. Did some research on the problem, broke out the calipers, and found they were all undersized. One or two of them were as small as .440", which is quite a squeeze for a .452" bullet.

 

Broke out the drill index and found a bit that was the right size ... a 29/64" which in theory would make a .453" hole ... and squared up the drill press and had at it. Bored them out, polished them, and gave them the bullet drag & drop test. All cylinders allowed a fresh bullet to go through with just a slight amount of drag, instead of having to ram them through.

 

Solved all the accuracy and leading problems, and all it cost me was the time to do the job. For a 44-40, a #57 drill bit at .430" would do the same thing.

 

Here's an article by someone who had similar problems ... http://www.leverguns.com/articles/4440.htm

[Chili Ron]

Howdy,

According to my favorite gunsmith a gun needs to be a funnel.

The firing chamber, the forcing cone, the barrel and the muzzle

each should be just a tiny bit tighter.

If any part is tighter than the part after the bullets will

not be stable and accuracy will suffer.

Other pards have confirmed that especially Rugers benefit from

checking and adjustment with this in mind.

One pard wrote a detailed letter to the ruger folks and they

responded that most people wont pay for the increased price

if his changes were put into production.

He has a website, something like ktgunsmith or kitchen table

gunsmith...whatever. fyi.

Best

CR

[JD Trampas, SASS # 55781]

From what I have heard and read, cylindersmith is only doing 45 throats now, might want to check that out

 

 

 

All for now JD Trampas

[Guest Joe West, SASS#1532 L Regulator]

I've been doing accuracy and reliability work on rugers and what not for a long time. The 44-40 in particular is transformed into a real great shooter by bringing the point of aim, cylinder dimensions, barrel gap, headspace, and forcing cone to the necessary specs. The 44-40s I do can run all day with bp or any sub and stay smooth as well as hit what you aim at. You should have somebody around there that can do this work, but have them show you a working example first. And they should warranty their work.

44-40 is my favorite pistol caliber.

Joe

[St. Louis Suomi SASS #31905]

Howdy:

 

Thanks for the input. The article was interesting and informative - Hmmm I have a #57 drill - I will consider that as an option.

 

I looked up #57 =s Waaaaay too small .0430 I think - need .430 - but it was something to think about - looked at X Y Z drills - probably won't be able to drill - drat!

 

Thanks again.

 

STL Suomi

Edited February 13, 2012 by St. Louis Suomi SASS #31905

[Monco]

I find the fact that Ruger doesn't seem to understand and correct this issue a complete joke. The fact that they will spend the effort, time,and money to replace someones cylinder with one that has the same or worse problem makes me question ever sending a gun back to them for any type of service, warranty or otherwise. I love the 7 Rugers I own but this type of thing is ridiculous and makes no sense.

 

I guess they have been helping out a few gunsmith's for over a decade now with this simple little problem so I guess it isn't all bad.

[Guest Joe West, SASS#1532 L Regulator]

It's not just Ruger.

Check the specs on any Colt Clone, you'll find something off, but it usually won't be noticed or affect most shooters.

For many years any 1911 was considered just a starting point if you wanted to shoot matches or even use hp ammo. Now the 1911's are better than ever but still need the personal tweak for this and that.

Colt had gotten about unusable without action work in the 1990's but after the current adm took over the product has been better than ever.

Ruger does a very good job with most stuff, incredibly good for the price which is what drives any market. 44-40 and to a lesser degree 45 colt are kind of the red headed step children.

If you think any gun company is keeping independent gunsmiths in business look around sometime and see how many of us are left.

Just my view from the trenches.

Joe

Edited February 13, 2012 by Joe West, SASS#1532 L Regulator

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

Howdy:

 

I have a Ruger 44-40. A month ago or so I sent it back to Ruger to be opened up - TWO OF THE CHAMBERS IN THE CYLINDER WERE JUST TOO TIGHT - I got it back (well, they swapped it for another brand new cylinder. Great! Only now I have three chambers that are just too tight.

 

OK, I have had it - sending it off to Cylindersmith to have the chamber throats opened to .430 -Hopefully that will cure the problem once and for all. Has anyone else done this and if so, how did it work out for you?

 

STL Suomi

 

On the 44-40 I had, the throats were also too tight. I could not hit the broad side of a barn from the inside. Seriously, it would chuck keyholes at 25 feet. When I opened the chamber throats to match the groove depth(0.430), I got much better accuracy. However, I was forced to use oversized bullets (0.431 or 0.432). Meaning lead bullets need to be swaged down 0.001 or so to fill the grooves. Since my rifle was using .428 bullets, I sold off the revolver and picked up matching revolvers - A little known Uberti advantage.

 

BTW, I did use the gun for some time with Hornady XTP bullets ... and found that as I upped the load, the accuracy got better ... given that it was a 44 Mag with 44-40 cylinder this made logical sense to me.

 

YMMV

[Monco]

It's not just Ruger.

Check the specs on any Colt Clone, you'll find something off, but it usually won't be noticed or affect most shooters.

For many years any 1911 was considered just a starting point if you wanted to shoot matches or even use hp ammo. Now the 1911's are better than ever but still need the personal tweak for this and that.

Colt had gotten about unusable without action work in the 1990's but after the current adm took over the product has been better than ever.

Ruger does a very good job with most stuff, incredibly good for the price which is what drives any market. 44-40 and to a lesser degree 45 colt are kind of the red headed step children.

If you think any gun company is keeping independent gunsmiths in business look around sometime and see how many of us are left.

Just my view from the trenches.

Joe

I can agree with all of your statements JW. I suppose that if we consider the fact that the Ruger 44-40/45 Colt caliber market is pretty small when they are working on selling a million guns in a single year, I'd be willing to guess that this issue wasn't and isn't at the top of the "Opportunities" list.

With all that has been said, I'd still be happy to own a pair of Vaquero's or better yet and wishful thinking, New Vaquero's in 44-40. Of course I'd have to massage them prior to using them and to me, that would be fine as I enjoy working on them....just don't understand why any company doesn't just do something simple like this right the first time around to avoid this kind of publicity.

[Noz]

I split a fiberglass ramrod, threaded a piece of 600 grit emery cloth(enough to fill the chamber throat), chucked the whole mess into a cordless drill and went after my cylinder throats on all of my 41 mags. A little patience and all of them are polished out to .411.

 

Will work on any caliber.

[The Coconino Pistolero, SASS # 72432]

Also with USFA pistols only not as bad as the Ruger example. An Old Armory .45 colt pistol, cylinder throat .454 to .455, shooting the.454 boolits halves the group size. I had a pair of 7 1/2" USFA pistols and based on the serial numbers were made about a year apart. One had throats averaging .452" and the other .455".

 

My only Colt in 45 Colt, made in 2009 has a throat averaging .454"

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Just measured the two .44-40 Uberti Cattlemen in my shop they are "NEW IN THE BOX" guns all twelve cylinder mouths measure between .4309 and .4313 ,,,, one barrel measures .4289 and the other .4287 .... They should be shooters ....

 

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

I bought the reamers from Clymers and did my 44-40s and 45s. 44-40 were all at .425, and .45 Colts were under .450. Also did the forcing cones.

 

Seemed to help tighten up the groups, maybe it just gave me more confidence in knowing ...

 

 

CR

[Guest Joe West, SASS#1532 L Regulator]

If you look on page 21 of "The Cowboy Way" you'll see my 44-40 Vaqueros and stuff I've been using for many years.

Some of my leather has worn out but those Rugers still work good.

Joe

[Gary Norsk]

Chambers tight or throat of cylinder under size ? Seems many of the 44-40s have tight chambers, If a .430 or .431" bullet was used it would not chamber all the way. One problem is that when seating the bullet it would bulge on one side making the case out of round. One fix is to use a smaller size bullet or make a case neck expander like the lyman "M" die that is about 1/2 a thou. smaller than the bullet diameter. This tight chamber for the Ruger would be with the numbers 55- serial numbers. and maybe higher numbers also. One Ruger blackhawk I have shot in the .45 ACP had under size throats in the cylinder .448 if I remember correctly and it is one of the best shooting SAs I have, I was shooting at 50 yds using the Lyman 452 200 grain semi wad cutter bullet. GN

[Pico PIstolero]

I bought my 44-40 Vaqueros from a Pard who'd slicked it up, lightened it up and had the chambers bored to .430. I love the guns. They shoot better than I do!!

 

My 73 slugs to .428. I'd been loading pistol rounds with .430 and rifle with .428, but I've just switched to .429 for both 'cause I'm tired of the hassle. The rifle shoots the .429 fine and I haven't run any through the pistols yet because I'm shooting out my .430s just to be done with them. I had been loading pistol with nickle brass and rifle with brass, both Starline. Part of the reason I'm going to .429 across the board is because I'm going to start shooting some BP. I'll use Winchester brass for the BP loads because I've heard the necks are thinner and will expand better to help prevent blow back.

 

We'll see how that goes.

 

-Pico

blog.picopistolero.com

[Three Foot Johnson]

When I opened up my .38-40 Rugers, I placed an ad here, borrowed a reamer from...? ... I don't remember who... reamed three cylinders/eighteen chambers, wrapped some green around it, and sent it back. You can also rent a chamber reamer online - 4-D Products comes to mind.

[Rockridge,SASS #8763]

Remember the 44 WCF is supposed to have a groove diameter of .427 vs. the .44 S&W and .44 Rem. Mag at .429. However, I suspect Ruger probably uses the same barrels for both.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Late model Uberti's also seem to be using barrel just under .430 in the .4286 to .4299 range ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

I've been doing accuracy and reliability work on rugers and what not for a long time. The 44-40 in particular is transformed into a real great shooter by bringing the point of aim, cylinder dimensions, barrel gap, headspace, and forcing cone to the necessary specs. The 44-40s I do can run all day with bp or any sub and stay smooth as well as hit what you aim at. You should have somebody around there that can do this work, but have them show you a working example first. And they should warranty their work.

44-40 is my favorite pistol caliber.

Joe

 

 

Joe did set of mine. I had cylinders as tight as .425. Mine shot very poorly. Now they are exceptionally accurate. I highly recommend Joe West.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

Remember the 44 WCF is supposed to have a groove diameter of .427 vs. the .44 S&W and .44 Rem. Mag at .429. However, I suspect Ruger probably uses the same barrels for both.

 

 

That was part of the problem when Ruger made these, .429 barrels with cylinders somewhat resembling 44-40 specs.

I find Ruger chambers all over the place and disappointing. My 45's were very bad and would not group til reamed out. Then they became excellent.

On my set of 44-40's I had cylinder throats that ranged from .425 up to .428. Each cylinder on that pair had 3 to 4 different diameters.

[Trailrider #896]

That was part of the problem when Ruger made these, .429 barrels with cylinders somewhat resembling 44-40 specs.

I find Ruger chambers all over the place and disappointing. My 45's were very bad and would not group til reamed out. Then they became excellent.

On my set of 44-40's I had cylinder throats that ranged from .425 up to .428. Each cylinder on that pair had 3 to 4 different diameters.

 

Howdy, Pards,

Part of the problem with both .44-40 and .45 LC, mostly with the .44-40, is that there is no modern SAAMI standard. SAAMI lists the dimensions for the cartridge, leaving the gun manufacturers to figure out the gun dimensions. The SAAMI standard for the bullet diameter of the .44-40 bullet is .427 +.000,-.003! Most modern gun manufacturers are using .44 Magnum barrels, with the nominal groove diameter of .429". When Ruger brought the OM Vaqueros out in .44-40 they went with the throats of .425". What was worse, they cut the chambers with ganged reamers. Unfortunately not only were they pretty small, especially in the neck area, but all the reamers were not the same size! When I bought my first gun from them, I couldn't even chamber .427 bulleted ammo in all six chambers. I checked with a noted gunsmith, the "departed" Milt Morrison. (NO! Not dead, just departed...for parts unknown, a shame, as he was one of the best...did work for Skeeter Skelton, etc.) I also checked with Clymer Mfg. The consensus was that attempting to rechamber this gun might result in chattering. I sent the gun back to Ruger, and they replaced the cylinder with larger, consistant chambers in it. BUT...they left the .425" throats! I fired .430" hard-cast bullets in it, and surprisingly got 1-5/8" groups at 25 yds on the bench! Ain't broke, don't fix it! Had a .44 Magnum cylinder fitted to the gun, in addition to the .44-40 cylinder. Then I bought a second OMV in .44 Magnum. Milt turned up a .44-40 cylinder with the looser chambers and the .425" throats. Same result. As accurate as I can shoot. This situation obtained from the mid- 55-XXXXX to about the mid- 56-XXXXX range. In the 57-XXXXX, Ruger finally opened the throats up to .430+...and then discontinued the .44-40.

 

The secret to good shooting with the tighter throats is to used hard cast bullets, BHN 17-22. What apparently happens is that the bullets squeeze down going through the throats, and then re-expand due to residual internal stresses remaining in the bullet metal.

 

As I said, it would be nice if SAAMI came up with a modern standard for the .44-40 cartridge.

 

Ride easy, but stay alert! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America!

 

Your Pard,

[Oklahoma Harry]

Bought a pair of used Ruger 44/40's from a SASS shooter. Measured the cylinders and they were .427. I sent them back to Ruger and they came back with new cylinders at .430. New cylinder pins and ejector housings. The boxes were relabeled with the correct bar codes and model# and all the booklets replaced(missing before). All at no charge. Of course the hammers springs were now from the frontend of a 56 chevy. Great service. Turn around was just a couple of weeks.

[Guest EL NEGRO GATO #8178]

Howdy, this happened to me and my friend Scott, the barrels were .430 but the cylinders were .427, so they shot like SHIT!. We called Ruger and they said we're using 44 barrels and not cyclinder size. So after a couple of heated discussions with Ruger we still couldn't get a straight answer, finally Scott called and what should we do and they wouldn't comment. So finally Scott asked the smith " If this your gun what would you do?" He said I'd rim the cyclinder to .428 or .429. Scott rented a rimmer and did ours in .429 it shoots like a raped ape.

Good shooting ENG

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

I looked up #57 =s Waaaaay too small .0430 I think - need .430 - but it was something to think about - looked at X Y Z drills - probably won't be able to drill - drat!

 

Thanks again.

 

STL Suomi

 

Dang it, that's what happens when you check things in a hurry.

There's no inch, letter, or number drill that'll apparently work. An 11mm would be too big at .433", so a specialty reamer seems the only way to go.

 

Sorry STL. Thought I could save you a few bucks.

[Dash Caliber]

Back to the original pard's problem...did I miss it in all these responses or has an assumption been made on what is the bore size on his gun. I've heard of the .430..but mine..now a set of those wondeful no cleaning necessary Joe West guns...they were a tight .427...2 different guns from 2 different locations.. so maybe Joe will correct me and I will accept that..but before we start boring cylinders shouldn't we know what the bore actually is..or do we? Just saying.

[St. Louis Suomi SASS #31905]

Howdy -

 

Yup - did that - 429 is what I got. :-)

 

STL Suomi

[Guest Tommy Reb]

STL Suomi, sent you a PM. If it does not make it through, let me know.

 

TR

[Seldom Seen #16162]

How do you measure cylinder throats?

[Jackson Haller]

Hi all,

I've been shooting Ruger Vaqueros in 44-40 for over 10 years now. When I purchased my several pairs, the cylinder throats were too tight for the .429 barrels they use. All but two went back to Ruger and they replaced the cylinders with correctly sized ones; no questions asked and they did it correctly. According to the original poster, this was not done correctly by Ruger for him. I would measure the throats and contact them and explain the problem. I'm wondering if a change in workers there has left a knowledge vacuum regarding the 44-40s. As for getting it fixed, either send back to Ruger (once they understand the problem), or find a high quality gunsmith to fix them.

(As for the two I did not send back; I shoot only softcast lead with real BP in them and they work fine.)

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

How do you measure cylinder throats?

With a plain old 2 point caliper. A normal 2 point will work. You just take the average of several meanurements. If you can afford a 3 point caliper even better.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

How do you measure cylinder throats?

 

You can slug it, just like a barrel.

[Fairshake]

For the person who had .427 cylinders and opened them up to .430, you just made them into 44spl/44mag specs.

The original 1873 in 44WCF was first produced with barrels as small as .425 The loading tools with them were the same as I have one from the 1880's and it drops bullets from 20-1 alloy at .425

The standard was finally made to be .427 and that is the correct one that is shown in all of the Cartridges of The World books and various loading manuals.

I have two special order 44-40's from when USFA was still making guns and they both are perfect at .427 in cylinders and barrels. My Uberti 1873 also slugs at .4275

I shoot my own design bullet from Accurate Moulds that drop at .430 and I size them to .4285 on my Star. I use nothing but Black Powder and a 20-1 alloy.

Ruger and Marlin both decided some time ago to make the guns in 44WCF to the same size as the 44 Magnum and 44 Special. If this was for economic reasons or what, I have no idea.

Colt has also had 44WCF guns with different dimensions.

To the poster who said why doesn't someone set a standard, it's been set many years ago. The problem has been the gun makers themselves and the lack of any Quality Control Management.

My guns will shoot the center out of any target if I do my part.

I'm in the same state of mind as others in why Ruger continues to produce guns that are out of spec. as it makes no sense. The cost of repair is much higher than doing it correctly the first time.

[Three Foot Johnson]

ALL my .44-40's, with the exception of ONE, are .429" - four Uberti rifles, eight Vaqueros, and eight Uberti revolvers. The lone exception is an 1875 Remington from Navy Arms that slugs just a tad over .431". It shoots just fine with .429" bullets, just like all the rest of 'em.