Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Got to pondering on something, and wonder if any pards can delve into their history books on this one. Going on the premise that bottleneck cartridges are more efficient than straight wall cartridges, why are most auto pistol designs based on the straight? Rifle cartridges long ago went from straight to bottleneck, so why didn't pistols follow suit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 If those bottlenecked rifle cartridges were not bottlenecked, they would have had to be a lot longer to have the powder needed to push the desired bullet at the velocity desired. What would you gain by putting a 9 mm on a bottlenecked case? A round that might only be an inch overall but a little bit wider, but unable to fit 17 in a handgun magazine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duffield, SASS #23454 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 If those bottlenecked rifle cartridges were not bottlenecked, they would have had to be a lot longer to have the powder needed to push the desired bullet at the velocity desired. What would you gain by putting a 9 mm on a bottlenecked case? A round that might only be an inch overall but a little bit wider, but unable to fit 17 in a handgun magazine. .357 SIG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perro Del Diablo Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Pony Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Think one of the considerations is how they feed from magazines, Sig worked long and hard to get theirs right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Church Key, SASS # 33713 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Here is a good article on the subject: Bottleneck Article The 7.63 Mauser was quite popular as was the 7.65 Luger. As mentioned, the much newer .357 Sig is holding its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 I was looking back a bit further than the .357 Sig, like the .30 Mauser/Luger rounds back at the turn of the previous century, which apparently was pretty reliable in Broomhandles and early Lugers. Or the 7.62 Tokarev, which I understand to be also a pretty peppy and reliable caliber. On the modern line, there's the .400 Corbon, which uses a necked down 45ACP case as its parent, and allows any 1911 to be converted over just by changing the barrel. Just wonder if John B. ever considered such a concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bama Red Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 This is just a SWAG, but once smokeless became the rage, bottle necked cartridges were not necessary to seal off blowback from the BP and keep it from gumming up the works. Auto pistols and smokeless came about at almost the same time. Auto pistols almost require the use of straight wall cartridges and smokeless, so.......there ya go. But, its just a guess - nothing other than the wild ramblings of an unkempt mind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Most handgun semi-auto's headspace on the case mouth. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhorse Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Most handgun semi-auto's headspace on the case mouth. LG The .357 Sig headspaces on the bottleneck, which tends to make it a nuisance to set up for reloading. Yeah, I know most bottleneck rifle cartridges do also but, somehow, they don't seem to be as touchy as the .357 Sig. I really don't know why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Tull, SASS #66742 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I was looking back a bit further than the .357 Sig, like the .30 Mauser/Luger rounds back at the turn of the previous century, which apparently was pretty reliable in Broomhandles and early Lugers. Or the 7.62 Tokarev, which I understand to be also a pretty peppy and reliable caliber. On the modern line, there's the .400 Corbon, which uses a necked down 45ACP case as its parent, and allows any 1911 to be converted over just by changing the barrel. Just wonder if John B. ever considered such a concept. Just to add further info on the .30 cal broomhandles. Until the advent of the .357 Magnum, the .30 broom was the most powerful [fps] handgun cartridge, with velocities of some ammo exceeding 1300 fps. Tull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Tull, SASS #66742 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 All this talk of semi-autos, we are forgetting the bottleneck [or necked down] cartridges in revolvers. Case in point, the S & W Model 53 [or as some lovingly refer to it "The S & W Mistake]. Though a lot of people thought the "mistake" tag came from the pistols unique 'look'. Staring at the business end, one sees a .22 hole in the barrel, and 6 .22 holes in the cylinder - look at the back of the cylinder, and one finds a hole the size of a .38 Special. Take a .357 Mag cartridge - neck down to .22 - and you have the .22 Remington Jet. Then S & W takes a K frame and builds basically a target/varmint pistol for it. 2400 fps velocity - flat shooting to over 100 yards - jams up after 3 or 4 rounds because the cases have backed out enough to bind the cylinder. Frequent cleaning of the cylinder [every 12 rounds or so] would cure the problem, but not many put up or performed the neccesary maintenance. On top of that, it was the loudest pitol I have ever shot, and that includes .30 Carbine Ruger 6 shooters. Tull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jake1001 Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 All this talk of semi-autos, we are forgetting the bottleneck [or necked down] cartridges in revolvers. Case in point, the S & W Model 53 [or as some lovingly refer to it "The S & W Mistake]. Though a lot of people thought the "mistake" tag came from the pistols unique 'look'. Staring at the business end, one sees a .22 hole in the barrel, and 6 .22 holes in the cylinder - look at the back of the cylinder, and one finds a hole the size of a .38 Special. Take a .357 Mag cartridge - neck down to .22 - and you have the .22 Remington Jet. Then S & W takes a K frame and builds basically a target/varmint pistol for it. 2400 fps velocity - flat shooting to over 100 yards - jams up after 3 or 4 rounds because the cases have backed out enough to bind the cylinder. Frequent cleaning of the cylinder [every 12 rounds or so] would cure the problem, but not many put up or performed the neccesary maintenance. On top of that, it was the loudest pitol I have ever shot, and that includes .30 Carbine Ruger 6 shooters. Tull Yep! It's LOUD. The cylinder needs to be cleaned with alcohol so the cartridges won't back out. Any oil and it will bind up. I own a Thompson Center Contender in .22 Jet Mag. I call it the FLAME, cuz it shoots a fireball 12 inches in diameter and 18 in length out of the end of the barrel KA-BOOM It will put 10 shots in a Silver Dollar size group at 100 yards from a rest. Can you say Good-Bye Mr. Squirrel? Just sayin' Big Jake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 Here is a good article on the subject: Bottleneck Article Thanx for the link Church Key. Answers a lot of questions. From the time stamp, it looks like a bunch were all on during our lunches at work. I found another oddball bottleneck round: the 5.45x18 Russian ... http://www.enemyforces.net/firearms/psm.htm ... apparently it's in response to the 5.7FN, and despite its dimunitive size will punch through from 17 to 55 layers of Kevlar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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