Frederick Jackson Turner Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Howdy, all; Interested in your thoughts. I'm the VP of Hole in The Wall up at Wes Thompson's Range in Piru - (Home to Steel Challenge, until this year) and we have decided to make a couple of little changes. Copying a page from Bordertown- (Consider it a reverent homage, Bordertown folks!) we have decided to set up stages that are simple, fast, and fun. It is very encouraging to new shooters, who were well represented, and, as I always say, such a match, like Bordertown, makes regular shooters fell like great shooters, and great shooters feel like Superman!! ;-) Our match director is former Overall World Champion Lefty Longridge, who designs great stages. Our shooters yesterday included a former overall World Champion, the Current World Champion, at least two future world champs, and several who have multiple Category championship buckles. Big, Fast, Close. Not one clean shooter. Discuss. Cheers, FJT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Not one clean shooter. Discuss. Range needs to provide shower facilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Range needs to provide shower facilities. Like a "dip-tank" for you maybe...... LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Like a "dip-tank" for you maybe...... LG Edit my original post: Range needs to provide HEATED shower facilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 IIRC, that range has some cattle....... LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Flimshaw Sass# 73310 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 FJT, looks like you're not getting the level of discourse that you were hoping for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 FJT, looks like you're not getting the level of discourse that you were hoping for OH SURE.....go an insult good 'ol Philly Slime because of his hunched back, drooling ear wax and his 10 thumbs. You know, when he IS on his meds. You almost what to be around him(kinda, maybe)except for that Tourette's thing his got going on now. Kinda sad, LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangler Jones, SASS # 64178 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 IIRC, that range has some cattle....... LG Why, yes. Yes, it does. And a whole lotta dust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misty Moonshine Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 First of all, great job to HITWG! Enticing new shooters and challenging champion shooters all with the exact same stages?! What a recipe for success! Every target can be missed, even if they're the size if a volkswagon and close as can be...and...Even when there are world champion shooters in line! I would imagine a false sense of surety and confidence comes into play, when the targets are nice and big and close.. "It's so big and close there's NO WAY I can miss it, so I'll fly through this- easy peasy, lemon squeezy!" Right? Wrong! Ahem.. . Perhaps the mere presence of the cows and dust served to be so distracting? Of course, I'm sure that had there been hot shower facilities every one in attendance would have shot it clean even if the targets were the size of quarters at 40 yards. MM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bo bean 61280 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 i enjoyed the sun shoot.liked the target set ups. i'm trying to do that at 5 dogs in april. we shoot sat and sun. maybe you could come up sat and check them out. that would be march 31st. you could shoot hitwg sun:>) i'll bring an extra shotgun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I will take a shot at answering this one straight up. Big and close FORCES everyone (who has any hope of placing well) to run the ragged edge. Even slower and midpack shooters can put together runs when the course is "easy", and suddenly everybody is in contention. The field collapses when stages get quicker - And the significance of every mistake is magnified. If the "fast" shooter is 10% faster than his/ her competition and the stages are 45 seconds - then the fast shooter has a nearly 5 second cushion. Be smooth, shoot solid, even if you have a bobble, no big deal. But when the stages are 25 seconds? The fast guy or girl only has a 2.5 second cushion. 16 seconds? 1.6 cushion. A 2 second bobble means little against 45 second stages - a 2 second bobble on 16 second stages? The competion will eat the fast guy/ girls lunch. You can't fumble, you can't bobble and you have to push every shot - because I guarantee someone else is going to. Big and close leads to more misses, more fumbles, more jacked out rounds and pistol go arounds. And when you do run right on the edge and you manage to put a stage or a match together - It is thrilling. My kind of shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I will take a shot at answering this one straight up. Big and close FORCES everyone (who has any hope of placing well) to run the ragged edge. Even slower and midpack shooters can put together runs when the course is "easy", and suddenly everybody is in contention. The field collapses when stages get quicker - And the significance of every mistake is magnified. If the "fast" shooter is 10% faster than his/ her competition and the stages are 45 seconds - then the fast shooter has a nearly 5 second cushion. Be smooth, shoot solid, even if you have a bobble, no big deal. But when the stages are 25 seconds? The fast guy or girl only has a 2.5 second cushion. 16 seconds? 1.6 cushion. A 2 second bobble means little against 45 second stages - a 2 second bobble on 16 second stages? The competion will eat the fast guy/ girls lunch. You can't fumble, you can't bobble and you have to push every shot - because I guarantee someone else is going to. Big and close leads to more misses, more fumbles, more jacked out rounds and pistol go arounds. And when you do run right on the edge and you manage to put a stage or a match together - It is thrilling. My kind of shoot. I refuse to debate the merits of big and close vs. small and distant. I like a good mix of both for variety. What I highlighted though is the fault in your logic. If shooter A is 10% faster than shooter B, then shooter B isn't shooter A's competition. It's the guys who are miliseconds apart, no matter what the target arrangement, that are realistically competing against each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I refuse to debate the marits of big and close vs. small and distant. I like a good mix of both for variety. What I highlited though is the fault in your logic. If shooter A is 10% faster than shooter B, then shooter B isn't shooter A's competition. It's the guys who are miliseconds apart, no matter what the target arrangement, that are realistically competing against each other. X2 Philly LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Jackson Turner Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 Creeker's assessment is actually pretty valid. I have won plenty of matches shooting against folks who were just a bit faster than I am. I strive to be accurate, and on a 16 second stage, a 10% differential falls well within the window of a 5 second miss. let me re-emphasize the main thrust of this story, though; even big'n'close, NO ONE shot clean! One of our more experienced shooters - a guy who always does well in the mystifying world of Long Range shooting, shot the first sub-20 second stage of his life. You could see the smile from here to New Mexico, and a full day later, he was still grinning about it. Big smiles. Isn't that why we're in this game? Now, back to our regularly scheduled Fool-Tommery. Cheers, FJT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cole Younger Requlator Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Are you going to do this again??? And are you talking about Brushwacker?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Jackson Turner Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 Pretty astute, there, Cole! Yes, we will be doing it for the next year, to see how folks like it; and yes, it was Brushwacker, who peeled of a 17 and change stage. What an adrenaline rush! Cheers, FJT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Red OToole, #48939 Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Yes, we will be doing it for the next year, to see how folks like it; and yes, it was Brushwacker, who peeled of a 17 and change stage. What an adrenaline rush! He was still grinning about it yesterday!! And we did another "big & close" just like last weekend. This time we had 4 clean shooters. The overall winner ripeed off SEVERAL 13 second stages. I even managed to shoot EVERY stage in the teens. Was it fun? AB-SO-FRIGGIN-LUTLEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can't wait until next month. If this is how Bordertown is going to be, I can't wait to go this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I'll just add one thought. As a match director I keep these words in my mind "the shooters create the challenge". I have followed that logic for 5 years at our state shoot and it been pretty successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Jackson Turner Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 As a match director I keep these words in my mind "the shooters create the challenge". That ought to be written down in every clubhouse in SASS, Deuce. Fun match again, yesterday, as IROT said. And - FOUR clean shooters! Probably too easy, huh? ;-) We're working on those showers, by the way. So far, if you're willing to lay down by the road when the water truck comes by, we've got you covered! And there's ALWAYS the dip tank! ;-) Cheers, FJT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Red OToole, #48939 Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 You can always wait until it rains and take a dip in the creek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Tom Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 targets that are set out a ways people focus on sight picture and pick a spot. Medium range targets most shooters start watching only front sight and stop picking a spot, big close targets people forget sights and targets and point at the bank of targets and start triing to out run their guns but have a big smile. But after running mostly big targets for a couple years it can get boring. I know I may get flamed for saying that, but I still like variety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Just for the sake of discussion. When you are a good shooter it's easy to forget that the bulk of shooters do not practice and have a limited skill level. It's not the match directors or stage writers job to turn people into better shooters,that's up to the shooter. My home club runs what I would consider midrange targets pistols being 6-9 yards and rifle 12-15yards but occasionaly closer. Out of 40 shooters we may average 4-6 clean shooters. Stages are kept interesting with target arrangement, movement and staging requirments. The current trend is big and close. That started happening about 8 years ago and still seems popular. It's seems to be dictated by what shooters want the most. Don't know if it will ever go back to the way it was. If you rely only on the shooting to keep this game fun and intresting for you then I can easliy see where it would be pretty easy to get bored. For me about 30% of my enjoyment is the shooting and competition and 70% of my enjoyment comes from the people that I have met that have become family to us. To each is own but in my opinion if you are not taking advantage of the good folks in this game you miss out on the best part of it. And that's when folks get sour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Tom Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 don't consider 6 to 9 yards big and close sounds fun. Car doors at 1 to 3 yards gets boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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