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Rancho Roy

American Pioneer Powder allowed to be used in BP classes

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Is American Pioneer Powder allowed to be used in BP classes even though it clearly states it contains "no black powder" in the formulation?

 

"ABSOLUTELY NO BLACK POWDER is added to our American Pioneer® Powder and Jim Shockey’s™ GOLD™ SUPER STICKS™ and STICKS® Compressed Charges. The addition of black powder would defeat the purpose of using a sulfurless black powder replacement in a muzzleloader or other black powder firearm to eliminate sulfur corrosion, fouling, and the horrible “rotten egg” smell."

 

Therefore it must be Nitro based?

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I believe the answer is yes. Tho not a black powder, it is classed as a black powder substitute. It loads as black powder. It has the same characteristic of black powder, ie a lot of smoke.

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I think, and there are those that know more than I, that APP is a sugar based material.

And Yes it is legal.

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Also, it is often used by those who lack access to or don't choose to use real BP. Ordinary cast bullets lubed for smokeless powders work fine with it. My wife's Ruger single sixes run more reliably with it than anything propellant legal in BP categories so that is her choice.

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Guest diablo slim shootist

Just a heads up ...do not over compress APP unless you like

magnum recoil and split cases...Don't ask me how I know :blush:

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Ammunition section of the shooters handbook (pg 12 in the online version) specifally states APP is a legal powder for the BP categories.

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Is American Pioneer Powder allowed to be used in BP classes even though it clearly states it contains "no black powder" in the formulation?

 

"ABSOLUTELY NO BLACK POWDER is added to our American Pioneer® Powder and Jim Shockey’s™ GOLD™ SUPER STICKS™ and STICKS® Compressed Charges. The addition of black powder would defeat the purpose of using a sulfurless black powder replacement in a muzzleloader or other black powder firearm to eliminate sulfur corrosion, fouling, and the horrible “rotten egg” smell."

 

Therefore it must be Nitro based?

IIRC APP is a citric based substitute. Adios Sgt.Jake

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IIRC APP is a citric based substitute. Adios Sgt.Jake

 

Yes! One of my mentor's favorite retorts to those who gag and try to fan away the smoke - heathen smokeless shooters mainly - is "Relax, it's like breathing orange juice!"

 

APP is dustier than Holy Black when loading, but ships and stores under smokeless propellant rules, making it more acceptable if you have city ordinance and/or homeowner's insurance restrictions. It cleans up with water or Ballistol, and can go a couple of days before cleaning. I think its actually easier to remove after the residue has time to dry out...others may disagree.

 

RE: Diablo Slim Shootist - 1/16 inch compression is plenty.

 

CS

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Well, if it's not allowed then I've been illegal for several years. Not that anyone has said anything about the smoke quantity other that "cough, cough, damn black powder, cough".

 

APP seems to burn cleaner? than other BP subs or true BP. My 73 will run for a full six or more stages without binding up and seems to clean up easier. 777 required a squirt of Ballistol every couple of stages to keep the rifle free.

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Guest diablo slim shootist

Yes! One of my mentor's favorite retorts to those who gag and try to fan away the smoke - heathen smokeless shooters mainly - is "Relax, it's like breathing orange juice!"

 

APP is dustier than Holy Black when loading, but ships and stores under smokeless propellant rules, making it more acceptable if you have city ordinance and/or homeowner's insurance restrictions. It cleans up with water or Ballistol, and can go a couple of days before cleaning. I think its actually easier to remove after the residue has time to dry out...others may disagree.

 

RE: Diablo Slim Shootist - 1/16 inch compression is plenty.

 

CS

I did not have even that much...still very hot load :huh:

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Just looking for confirmation. You could wait till the next day to clean your guns using APP?

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Just looking for confirmation. You could wait till the next day to clean your guns using APP?

FWIW:

 

ALL my guns are well lubed with Ballistol.I use stainless Vaqueros and a standard issue blued Marlin 1894 Cowboy Limited, along with a Spanish double. I shoot on Sunday - 6 stages - clean all guns on Thursday AM. In fact, I find it much easier to clean them after waiting than it is to clean immediately. I have found that the combination of Ballistol and APP residue does not promote rust. That having been said, others will tell you no, you can't. I don't know if they use a different lube, what I suspect, or are passing on hearsay.

 

All I can say is my way has worked for me for 5 years, shooting every weekend. Use any lube other than Ballistol and I can't say. In the end, as they always say YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY.

 

CS

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I did not have even that much...still very hot load :huh:

 

That is very curious! Have never had that happen, although I do occasionally get a single hotter load in a batch. I have assumed that those were caused by a cartridge full of very fine dust, which, it seems to me, would react just like using a lot of compression. As noted, APP does dust, and can get powdery through the cutting action of a powder measure. I observe the condition of powder charge before I place the bullet in the case mouth, and stop and clean the measure when I see too much dust for my liking. Of course, it's easy for me to sometimes get lazy...!

 

Was that one stray load or a bunch you had a problem with?

 

Is there any chance you had no compression at all, and, in fact, an air space under the bullet, which is not the way to go with BP?

 

Any other regular APP shooters want to jump in here?

 

CS

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I have never heavily compressed APP/Pinnacle,just slight compression is all.

Have a pard that heavily compressed Triple Seven 3 fg. one time in 45 colt. Ya boy there was some recoil,we shot them out of Ruger Vaquero's,no split cases.

They felt like shooting Ruger/TC only loads,I wished we would have had the chronograph set up,my bet is it would have been interesting.

Now mind you my pard didn't know at the time that Hodgdon recommended against using T7 3fg. in cartridges. It was never repeated again. Adios Sgt. Jake

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I hand dip all my APP loads. I reload for my 44-40 Colts and use the same load in my 73/44 Carbine. As such I do not have much of a fines issue as some who use a Powder measure. My loading is a combinaton of using my Dillon SDB. I resize on my RCBS rockchucker with RCBS Cowboy sizer die. Then clean the cases, the belling & primer seating is done on the dillon. Cases are arranged in the loading blocks for the APP charge and a filler added so I get approx. 3/16"-1/8" compression when the bullet is seated & crimped. Then it's back to the dillon for the bullet seating and crimp.

 

I shoot Frontier Cartridge & Frontiersman, as such I always have 44-40 cases in some sort of reloading Que. As this is a three step process I usually have a couple hundred sized,cleaned & primed ready for the charging step and final bullet seating.

 

If I shoot Smokless, it is 44 Special in the Colt. (I have dual cylinders). I load both the Specials & the 44-40's on the Dillon. As I use .429" bullets for all my 44's the Colts prefer to like the RCBS sizing die when the 44-40 cylinder is used. I have the RCBS sizer adjusted for Colt 44-40 cylinder chambers. Since I use a Dillon SDB I have no adjustment on the resize die.

 

And by single stage resizing on the RCBS Rockchucker this gives me the opportunity to inspect each case. I shoot with shooters who use 45colt & 38-40 in there rifles. I am amazed how many 45C & 38-40 appear in my 44-40 batch.

 

BTW; A 45C resized in a 44-40 die will not chamber in a 44-40 cylinder or Rifle chamber.

But a 38-40 will. ;)

 

I like APP powder, I doubt I will ever load the true powder BP in my Colt revolvers. I shoot APP in my 1851 Navy's and my Uberti 73 44-40 carbine. I guess because I can use my smokless bullets. I only stock two sizes of 44's. 200 gr. .429" & .427". I have an early Navy Arms 44-40 carbine with a very tight bore, .4255". Once I use up my stock of .429" 44's. I will most like see how the Navy Arms likes .428". Then hopefully I can use one bullet for all.

 

For my Brass Shotgun shell reloading I use the true powder, real Black 3F goex.

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FWIW:

 

ALL my guns are well lubed with Ballistol.I use stainless Vaqueros and a standard issue blued Marlin 1894 Cowboy Limited, along with a Spanish double. I shoot on Sunday - 6 stages - clean all guns on Thursday AM. In fact, I find it much easier to clean them after waiting than it is to clean immediately. I have found that the combination of Ballistol and APP residue does not promote rust. That having been said, others will tell you no, you can't. I don't know if they use a different lube, what I suspect, or are passing on hearsay.

 

All I can say is my way has worked for me for 5 years, shooting every weekend. Use any lube other than Ballistol and I can't say. In the end, as they always say YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY.

 

CS

 

 

+1. My experience with APP, also. I have had to wait up to a week after shooting before cleaning, and all OK, still.

 

Of course, I live in the desert, so low humidity. Once went 6 days during a rainy week and it was also no problem. I use a water-Windex(Multi-Surface w/vinegar) mix for cleaning, and Ballistol for lube - only. The Ballistol seems to leave a nice light and long lasting coating.

 

Works for me!

 

Cheers,

Harvey

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I've used APP for many years. It used to be known in a different name. As others I've had to wait before cleaning and you can use just about any thing from windex or lube cleaners like Break-Free and they clean up easy. And the not having to use blackpowder lubed bullets is a pluss, A draw back is it smokes alittle more than real Black. Recoil is good. Go to Captian Baylers web site. He has compiled alot of great info.

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Roy posted the same question over in CAS City ... here's my same response that I replied to him over there:

APP is nothing more than the old Clean Shot ascorbic acid powder that ceased operation when Hodgdon sued them for patent infringement and won - $1,014,660 back in 2001. All ascorbic acid and Sodium benzoate/Potassium perchlorate substitute powders (Pyrodex & Triple Seven) are SASS legal also

 

Blackhorn 209 is not SASS legal because it contains nitro cellulose gun powder- the smokeless stuff!

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Just looking for confirmation. You could wait till the next day to clean your guns using APP?

 

 

You can wait till the next day to clean real BP too!

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Is American Pioneer Powder allowed to be used in BP classes even though it clearly states it contains "no black powder" in the formulation?

 

"ABSOLUTELY NO BLACK POWDER is added to our American Pioneer® Powder and Jim Shockey's™ GOLD™ SUPER STICKS™ and STICKS® Compressed Charges. The addition of black powder would defeat the purpose of using a sulfurless black powder replacement in a muzzleloader or other black powder firearm to eliminate sulfur corrosion, fouling, and the horrible "rotten egg" smell."

 

Therefore it must be Nitro based?

 

 

"........horrible "rotten egg" smell."

 

 

horrible?!?!?!

 

 

Heck Fire! If'n it ain't got that MAGNIFICENT "rotten egg" smell, then fer sure it OUGHT NOT TO BE ALLOWED in the BP classes!

 

(just funnin' y'all, us darksiders welcome all!)

 

ol' poke

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(just funnin' y'all, us darksiders welcome all!)

ol' poke

Speak for yourownself. While I can tolerate the heathen, unwashed masses with their heathen, non-fire 'n brimstone powders as merely uneducated fools... those that choose the "look-alike" method of worship at the altar of the one-true powder are akin to those that wait till they're on the deathbed to repent their sins... they may gain admittance... but true believers will raise that eyebrow...:ph34r:

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Speak for yourownself. While I can tolerate the heathen, unwashed masses with their heathen, non-fire 'n brimstone powders as merely uneducated fools... those that choose the "look-alike" method of worship at the altar of the one-true powder are akin to those that wait till they're on the deathbed to repent their sins... they may gain admittance... but true believers will raise that eyebrow...:ph34r:

[/quote

 

 

:P:o;)

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