local gun store giving advice again

[Trigger Mike]

while browsing the local store, another customer is looking at their pistols for self defense. The clerk tells him the one he is looking at is good out to 25 yards and that if he shoots anyone beyond that he will go to jail for murder. He added he can shoot someone without explanation at less than 25 yards. Having policed in GA, I never read that rule in the law book. We were taught to qualify at 25 yards and that if they got any closer we waited too long, especially if they have a knife. I doubt the customer ever needs worry about it, but it just bothers me to hear bad advice, or even wrong advice.

[Tom Bullweed]

From my front porch, I can see across my yard, my neighbor's yard, his neighbor's yard, and so on for about 15 houses. Anyone threatening me and mine within those fifteen 'yards' will have a bad day of it.

This is my fifteen yard rule!

[evil dogooder]

Minnesota rules .. well as I was told by my cary instructer is 21 feet beyond that you can get tried for murder, as you are not showing you avoided the confrontation.

[Grizzly Dave]

Like alot of BS, there may be some shred of truth to his statement. The guy probably heard from a friend of a friend who had this cousin who knew a guy who once dated a gun rights lawyers daughters best friend who told him that one of the many criteria for a justified self defense shooting is that the shooter must be in fear for their life, and that the assailant must be less that 25 yards away for the criteria to be met, but if the assailant is farther than that, it is likely that the shooting will not be ruled justified and you will go to jail, go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

Like alot of BS, there may be some shred of truth to his statement. The guy probably heard from a friend of a friend who had this cousin who knew a guy who once dated a gun rights lawyers daughters best friend who told him that one of the many criteria for a justified self defense shooting is that the shooter must be in fear for their life, and that the assailant must be less that 25 yards away for the criteria to be met, but if the assailant is farther than that, it is likely that the shooting will not be ruled justified and you will go to jail, go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

 

Yep, but past 25 yds they are then in rifle range aren't they Grizz?

[Deja Vous]

All I can say is I will simply have to dig a basement if someone tries to break in.. cuz I am not waiting for them to come thru the door to see if they are armed first.. lol Y'all may post to be 6-7 at some prison library computer someday.. lol

[Blue Steel Duke]

while browsing the local store, another customer is looking at their pistols for self defense. The clerk tells him the one he is looking at is good out to 25 yards and that if he shoots anyone beyond that he will go to jail for murder. He added he can shoot someone without explanation at less than 25 yards. Having policed in GA, I never read that rule in the law book. We were taught to qualify at 25 yards and that if they got any closer we waited too long, especially if they have a knife. I doubt the customer ever needs worry about it, but it just bothers me to hear bad advice, or even wrong advice.

It would be very difficult to prove in court that someone was a "threat" to your safety at 25 yards, unless they had a rife, but to think you're safe from prosecution at 24 yards is just as silly!

 

BSD

[Rye Miles #13621]

while browsing the local store, another customer is looking at their pistols for self defense. The clerk tells him the one he is looking at is good out to 25 yards and that if he shoots anyone beyond that he will go to jail for murder. He added he can shoot someone without explanation at less than 25 yards. Having policed in GA, I never read that rule in the law book. We were taught to qualify at 25 yards and that if they got any closer we waited too long, especially if they have a knife. I doubt the customer ever needs worry about it, but it just bothers me to hear bad advice, or even wrong advice.

 

 

Here in Ohio it's 25 feet! Are ya sure then didn't say 25 FEET????

 

Rye

[S. Quentin Quale, Esq. SASS 9953]

In most states the right to use deadly force in self defense or the defense of another means you have to establish two things:

 

That the person acting was in fear of death or grevious bodily harm (to either themself or another), and

 

That a reasonable person in the same position would feel that way.

 

To the best of my knowledge there are no "hard and fast" distance rules. There may be "rules of thumb" but I've never researched that in any detail. The question is "what is the zone of danger?" as that will establish your "reaction time" and the reasonableness of your conduct.

 

According to NFL records, the really fast guys can run a 40 yard dash in 4.5 secs., or less. So if you see a big, fit guy in an NFL jersey with a knife 40 yards away then that's your "reaction time." Remember, too, that even if you hit him squarely he might not go down and may be able to kill you after he's already dead.

 

Of course if you see Fat Albert, 60 years old and with a game leg, at 40 yards lumbering towards you then you might have a different reaction time.

 

And a different "zone of danger."

 

Rules of Thumbe are fine, but they are approximations of general averages and, as such, of marginal value. Each circumstance stands on its own.

 

SQQ

[Noz]

Minnesota rules .. well as I was told by my cary instructer is 21 feet beyond that you can get tried for murder, as you are not showing you avoided the confrontation.

 

Thank God, Missouri got rid of that requirement.

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

Friend of a friend who had this cousin who knew a guy who once dated a gun rights lawyers daughters best friend.

 

 

Well heck, that's practically family!

[Alpo]

 

 

SQQ

 

Saw Out West, t'other day. Always wondered about your name.

[Alpo]

That's about like the "three-step rule" in Florida. "Got to go through at least three separate steps to access your gun - for example, open the glove box, remove the holster, take the gun out of the holster - for it to be legal. Otherwise you have the gun illegally in your car.

 

There AIN'T NO SUCH A THING AS THE "THREE-STEP RULE". But I have heard that little bit of nonsense spouted in numerous gun shops, and even by two different CWP-class teachers.

[Big Jake1001]

If you are really in fear for your life and have a gun...Shoot.

I'd rather be tried by 12 peers than carried by 6 friends. Just sayin'

 

Big Jake

[S. Quentin Quale, Esq. SASS 9953]

Saw Out West, t'other day. Always wondered about your name.

 

I'm a Dedicated Marxist and it's the only Western the Brothers ever made.

 

SQQ

[el Gato Gordo - SASS #15162]

Some states require that you must retreat to avoid a threat, even if you are in a place that you can legally be: restaurant, movie theatre, your front yard. Stupid rule, applied mostly back east.

 

Some (not all) of those states, through case-law, recognize that one has no obligation to retreat in one's own home.

 

Colorado has no requirement to retreat.

 

Salud!

eGG

[Big Jake1001]

Some states require that you must retreat to avoid a threat, even if you are in a place that you can legally be: restaurant, movie theatre, your front yard. Stupid rule, applied mostly back east.

 

Some (not all) of those states, through case-law, recognize that one has no obligation to retreat in one's own home.

 

Colorado has no requirement to retreat.

 

Salud!

eGG

 

What is this word Retreat of which you speak? I was trained in the USMC and they did not speak of this word.

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/303097_10150393913681477_792816476_10028704_842089265_n.jpg

 

Big Jake

[Utah Bob #35998]

Always know well your state's laws on the use of deadly force. If your state does not have a Castle Doctrine type statute then research lawyers who are experienced in handling self defense cases and keep the number handy just in case.

[Trigger Mike]

Always know well your state's laws on the use of deadly force. If your state does not have a Castle Doctrine type statute then research lawyers who are experienced in handling self defense cases and keep the number handy just in case.

Here in GA, the rules for a citizen are the same as for a police officer. Fear for your life or someone elses, or to prevent a forcible felony. personally I do not like guns and am against violence. I stopped policing due to all the fighting and violence going on. sickening.

[Sergeant Smokepole #29248L]

What is this word Retreat of which you speak? I was trained in the USMC and they did not speak of this word.

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/303097_10150393913681477_792816476_10028704_842089265_n.jpg

 

Big Jake

 

 

We just attacked in a different direction....

[S. Quentin Quale, Esq. SASS 9953]

Some states require that you must retreat to avoid a threat, even if you are in a place that you can legally be: restaurant, movie theatre, your front yard. Stupid rule, applied mostly back east.

 

Some (not all) of those states, through case-law, recognize that one has no obligation to retreat in one's own home.

 

Colorado has no requirement to retreat.

 

Salud!

eGG

 

It's imperative to know the law of your jurisdiction (that includes state, county, and local).

 

In TN you can now get a Handgun Carry Permit without taking the mandatory course if you have certain experience (like being a veteran). I still recommend folks take the course because it spends a lot of time on local law and discusses good, safe practices. The course I took had an intersting demo on "zone of danger" by showing how fast an average person can cross 25' feet.

 

The old History Channel series "Tales of the Gun" had an intersting lead in, where the narrator noted that firearms carry with them moral responsibility. Anyone who chooses to carry must remember that in addition to the firearm they also tote this "moral responsibility."

 

SQQ

[Subdeacon Joe]

 

 

The old History Channel series "Tales of the Gun" had an intersting lead in, where the narrator noted that firearms carry with them moral responsibility. Anyone who chooses to carry must remember that in addition to the firearm they also tote this "moral responsibility."

 

SQQ

 

The first time I watched that show and I heard that my thought was "Bless them! They get it!" Other "moral responsibilities" are to protect ourselves, our families, and society in general from the immoral, or maybe amoral is the better term, thugs who would prey on others.

[Henry T Harrison]

The first time I watched that show and I heard that my thought was "Bless them! They get it!" Other "moral responsibilities" are to protect ourselves, our families, and society in general from the immoral, or maybe amoral is the better term, thugs who would prey on others.

 

 

I watched a network news report the other night that was focused on the increase in interest in firearms ownership. The report was actually very neutral and shock of shock while doing the report there was video of a man shooting an AR style rifle which the reporter identified as a semi auto rifle. I damn near fainted

[Mosey N Sloe]

Old fat man here. Don't figure I can retreat real fast, so can I just draw and close the distance before shooting?

[Subdeacon Joe]

I watched a network news report the other night that was focused on the increase in interest in firearms ownership. The report was actually very neutral and shock of shock while doing the report there was video of a man shooting an AR style rifle which the reporter identified as a semi auto rifle. I damn near fainted

 

I think the powers that be in the media have finally realized the beating they are taking in credibility when every rifle is an "assault rifle," every magazine is "high capacity," and showing every gun owner as either a homicidal zombie or wack-job with an IQ around refrigerator levels and adorned with swastikas or a white sheet.

 

We are seeing an increase in reporting of defensive gun uses by honest citizens, without them being shown as trigger happy vigilantes shouting "Make my day!" Was it a CBS affiliate that recently ran a piece about women shooters? And CBS also broke Fast & Furious. NBC sponsoring the New Products section of SHOT.

 

Something is happening in the media. Not quite sure what.

[Red Logan #12252]

Print all the above and take it to court with you, that outa do it!!!!!!! Then report back....

[BikerRN]

I highly doubt that any state will have a law stating that one can only shoot, in defense of self or others, at a specified maximum distance.

 

What I think is more applicable is if one can articulate why they had to shoot at whatever distance they shot at. I have, although uncommon, read of 50 Yard handgun fights and 3 Yard rifle fights.

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

All of this without mentioning intent, means and opportunity (were those the words?). The sidewalks would be awash in blood if you just shot everyone within 21 feet. 21 feet is just opportunity, if I recall correctly.

[Trigger Mike]

I highly doubt that any state will have a law stating that one can only shoot, in defense of self or others, at a specified maximum distance.

 

What I think is more applicable is if one can articulate why they had to shoot at whatever distance they shot at. I have, although uncommon, read of 50 Yard handgun fights and 3 Yard rifle fights.

a police academy firearms instructor once stopped a fleeing armed robber from 50 yards away with a snub nose 38. under the gun store advice he'd gone to jail. he did not. it was a justified shooting.

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

LEOs are held to a different standard than civilians. In most states I can't shoot a fleeing felon unless I reasonably believe that he willcause imminent harm to someone. An LEO might be expected to take the shot.

[MAYOBARD SASS #13025L]

The situation will dictate what is correct and legal. If you were in fear for your life, it generally should be enough as long as it's a reasonable fear. If the Suspect is leaving and you shoot him / her in the back, you're in trouble. On longer distances, the things to think about are:

How was the Suspect armed? Rifle, pistol, shotgun, knife?

Were you taking incoming rounds?

Was the Suspect rapidly advancing and failing to stop or flea when you encountered him and told him / her to stop?

[Texas Phil Peeno #50923]

I use that as one of my rule of thumb. There are too many variable at 25 yards. What is the back stop? Any innocent bystanders? What is the real issue of the threat? At 25 yards I can hide and call 911. At 25 yards I can't tell what is behind the perp. I would rather duck and hide rather than shoot and injure an innocent person.

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

At Masaad Ayoob's class on the use of Lethal Force, we determined that for an average person, reaction time to draw and effectively shoot a concealed weapon is 1.5 seconds. We also determined that an average assailant demonstrating intent to do you bodily harm can, from a standing start 21 feet away, charge you and do such harm in about 1.5 seconds. That might be where the "21 feet" came from. Of course if the perp is already running 25 to 30 feet might be a good time to draw your weapon.

[ShadowCatcher]

while browsing the local store, another customer is looking at their pistols for self defense. The clerk tells him the one he is looking at is good out to 25 yards and that if he shoots anyone beyond that he will go to jail for murder. He added he can shoot someone without explanation at less than 25 yards. Having policed in GA, I never read that rule in the law book. We were taught to qualify at 25 yards and that if they got any closer we waited too long, especially if they have a knife. I doubt the customer ever needs worry about it, but it just bothers me to hear bad advice, or even wrong advice.

I can't help but feel sorry for folks who go to a gun store to get legal advice about self defense,

thats like going to a Bartells drug store for medical advice for a life threatening disease.

 

You can't fix stupid, so just stand far back from it and watch; and say a prayer for those who will really

need a guardian angel to protect them from the evil, and from the advice of fools.

 

Shadow Catcher

[Sergeant Smokepole #29248L]

Police Work is definitely different than Civilian usage. Police are not allowed the option of retreat so they MUST engage the threat from whatever distance is possible.

 

I was once criticized by one of our bosses because I engaged a guy that was shooting up the neighborhood and at me and my partner with a .30 caliber Carbine from a distance of 58 yards. 3 shots fired and 2 hits in less than 2 seconds...... That's better than the Police average of hits from within 5 yards....