Are Kabooms still a problem in 45LC?

[rcd567]

As my other thread stated, I've been away awhile. Mid to late 90's was when I was into CAS. Back then there was a thought neither proven or dispelled that a small amount of powder in a large 45 Long Colt case could detonate causing a Kaboom. While I had my doubts, I didn't worry about it as I shot a moderate load in 44 Special. I checked my supply and find I still have two, two gallon ice cream buckets full of loaded 44 Special cowboy ammo loaded up and 1000 200 grain cast bullets on hand. A quick check shows that 44 Special has dropped off in popularity as I can't seem to find much in Colt SAA or 1873 or 1866 rifles.

 

I did find a Colt SAA w/4 3/4" barrel, colored case hardened/blue finish, in 44 special caliber. Cabela's listed it as sold for $1950 dollars. Holy smoke wagons batman! I don't really believe I want to drop that kind of coin. I'm not dropping my search for a SAA in 44 Special and really want a short rifle in the same caliber in a 1873. I've got some emails out to Cimarron and to USFA. We'll see what those bring.

 

But in the event I can't get what I want for a year or so, I may have to rethink the caliber thing. So tell me, is the 45 Long Colt any safer today than it was say 20 years ago?

[Dusty Boddems]

i don't really think that the 45 colt was ever unsafe. i would belive some folks had questionable reloading practices. the best way to load a 45 colt for smokeless is to buy some of the shortened colt brass called c45s and shoot that out of your pistols so there are no consistency problems. i did a few tests awhile back and shooting loads that ran around 750 fps w/ the 45 colt and fast powders the results were the old big colt was quite sensitive to powder position .up to 250 fps! it's just a big ole case and if you reduce it down to the length of a 45acp you have consistency with lighter loads. there are other ways to do this but i always aopt out for quickest, safest and easiest. dusty boddems

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Any safer? It is and always has been safe. Some hand loaders might not be safe (and blame blow-ups on the mysterious light load/detonation theory). But millions of rounds of lite loaded .45s have been fired without incident. That is pure baloney.

[Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223]

If you are truly firm on the 44 special, and it seems you are. I would suggest Rugers in 44 mag., you can shoot 44 Specials. 73's are very hard to come by in 44 Special. They made a few in 66's.

You can find a Browing B-92 in 44, and also Rossi makes a 92 in 44.

 

I shoot 44 Special in my Colts, also have 44-40 cylinders for each. USFA makes the Colt clone in 44 special.

My lever gun is a 73 Carbine in 44-40. I use the same bullets for both the revolver & Rifle.

I also you the same powder.

 

When I shoot BP, the 44-40 cylinders go in the Colts. I then shoot the same load in both revolver & Rifle.

 

The 44-40 cartridge is being used more in CAS/SASS. Seems the Wild Bunch crowd likes this cartridge over the 45LC.

[Matthew Duncan]

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I shoot 45s and still got all ten fingers... course my 45s are loaded as Colt intended, towards the top end of the powder manufacturers recommendations!

[rcd567]

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I shoot 45s and still got all ten fingers... course my 45s are loaded as Colt intended, towards the top end of the powder manufacturers recommendations!

Glad you counted before posting Matt. I assume this topic is still hot after nearly 20 years. I tried searching the kaboom thing, but my searchfoo is weak.

[rcd567]

If you are truly firm on the 44 special, and it seems you are. I would suggest Rugers in 44 mag., you can shoot 44 Specials. 73's are very hard to come by in 44 Special. They made a few in 66's.

You can find a Browing B-92 in 44, and also Rossi makes a 92 in 44.

 

I shoot 44 Special in my Colts, also have 44-40 cylinders for each. USFA makes the Colt clone in 44 special.

My lever gun is a 73 Carbine in 44-40. I use the same bullets for both the revolver & Rifle.

I also you the same powder.

 

When I shoot BP, the 44-40 cylinders go in the Colts. I then shoot the same load in both revolver & Rifle.

 

The 44-40 cartridge is being used more in CAS/SASS. Seems the Wild Bunch crowd likes this cartridge over the 45LC.

 

And yeah Lefty I'm somewhat partial to the 44 Special. Back a decade or two I had three third generation Colts in 44 Special and a 1873 short rifle and a 1866 regular rifle in 44spl. They weren't too hard to obtain back then.

 

Should have hid the guns and told the sawbones to just take a kidney for payment.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

And yeah Lefty I'm somewhat partial to the 44 Special. Back a decade or two I had three third generation Colts in 44 Special and a 1873 short rifle and a 1866 regular rifle in 44spl. They weren't too hard to obtain back then.

 

Should have hid the guns and told the sawbones to just take a kidney for payment.

 

It'll all work out. Now by the time you replace the three Colts, the 73 and the 66 you'll have to sell a kidney to afford them.

 

By the way. At almost every gun show I see Colt .44 Specials. They are not real popular so they tend to sit for a long time. You can find used .44 Special 73s and 66s, it just may take a little looking and time.

[Ranger Sgt. Jake McCandless #3368]

Ballistic labs have tried to replicate the mysterious detonations so far without success.

If you decide on 45 colt and want better performance when it comes to hand loading for the game.

As Dusty mentioned their is the Cowboy 45 Special round. http://www.cowboy45special.com/cowboy45brass.html safer with smokeless and more cost effective with black powder.

Their is a carrier/lifter available for 1860 Henry,1866 and 1873 rifles to allow the use of the C45S.

http://www.cowboy45special.com/Cowboy_toggle_link_carriers.html

Adirondack Jack took the unneeded middle out of the 45 colt,something to ponder on. Adios Sgt. Jake

Edited January 10, 2012 by Ranger Sgt. Jake McCandless #3368

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

And yeah Lefty I'm somewhat partial to the 44 Special. Back a decade or two I had three third generation Colts in 44 Special and a 1873 short rifle and a 1866 regular rifle in 44spl. They weren't too hard to obtain back then.

 

Should have hid the guns and told the sawbones to just take a kidney for payment.

At our match yesterday, I saw Marlins running as fast and sometimes faster than Winclones. My old 44 Magnum 24" Cowboy feeds Specials just fine. I'm sure some 20 inchers will too.

 

The Marlins are historically correct and made in the USA. They are out there but of course, their price has risen.

 

Fillmore

[Rockridge,SASS #8763]

My most humble opinion is that the .44 special is still one of the best CAS cartridges out there. I can shoot CAS in 7 different caliber combinations and still have a soft spot for the .44 special. Not a darned thing wrong with it.

[Rancho Roy]

45LC chamber with Cowboy-45 brass...........Perfect!

[Marshal TKD, Sass # 36984L]

Never knew they where a real problem. I figured it was somebody double charging a case in a moment of ........ well you fill in the blank.

[rcd567]

Never knew they where a real problem. I figured it was somebody double charging a case in a moment of ........ well you fill in the blank.

 

Well that's what I figured too, but there were guys that swore it was some sort of detonation. Like I said, I had no dog in the fight. Now I believe BP does detonate, but I think it's suppose to.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

...73's are very hard to come by in 44 Special. They made a few in 66's...

 

I don't know why people keep saying this. It has been a number of years since Cimarron has been out of them, and currently almost every configuration of '66 and '73 is available.

 

rcd567, I occasionally see .44spcl Colts on the SASS Wire. Recently a guy had one VERY reasonable and no bites. I already have a 4 3/4 and 5 1/2 and no money anyway so it wasn't for me. If you are open to imports on the SAA as well, Uberti makes a number of models in .44 Spcl, available from Taylors in Pre-War frame and from Cimarron in Pre-War and Old Model frame.

[Bama Red]

No problem loading .45 Colts or .44-40's using BP, especially if you're using Rugers. Just load the case within a 1/4" or so of the top of the case, seat your bullet, compress the powder and crimp the round well. Absolutely no problems. It will definitely meet the SASS BP smoke standards and power factors.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

The ballistics labs of all the powder manufactures and the military and indepent test outfits have tried every combination there is in an attempt to achieve the elusive light load detonation witness NO success. There aren't more than "X" Jules of energy stored in a given amount of propellant. If you go lighter than "X" it's just less. There is no earth shattering KABOOM.

 

.44Spl is a great choice anyway. And ..... you can substitute .44 Russian. Go for it.

 

Coffinmaker

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Two things easily happen with any LONG case such as .45 Colt, .357 or .44 mag (and others), double charges of POWDER and seating two bullets in one case. Double charges are especially an issue in "hand turned" progressives like the 550. Forget to turn the press, yer gonna get a second charge of powder.

 

I "double balled" a .45 Colt case when using a LEE Pro 1000 press with a bullet feeder. The feeder would sometimes fail to drop a bullet, and when a round had a missing bullet, I'd reach in and hand seat one. Well, one time the missing bullet was NOT a failure to drop one, but rather the bullet had got stuck in a gunked up seating die and then ya know, I hand set a bullet, pulled the handle, and out came a normal looking, but noticeably too heavy round. Yup, that extra 250 grain bullet was in the case, under the other one. Thankfully I found it before KaBOOMing my gun.....

 

For the above reasons, high volume loading with a 650, nd use of a powder alarm are good safety measures. If you have a round in the seat crimp station, NEVER stop until a bullet is hand set, then answer the phone, etc. If you muct clear a malfunction, remove all the partially assembled rounds from the press, dump the powder out of those with any back into the measure) and set aside any primed cases. NEVER try to stop the operation, fix a problem then resume without clearing the shell plate. If you do, sure as you're born you will "half stroke" the press and get things all out of whack, where you could have a double charge, etc.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440

[Smithy]

I shoot 45s and still got all ten fingers... course my 45s are loaded as Colt intended, towards the top end of the powder manufacturers recommendations!

 

Similar to the sage advise I received from veteran SASS shooters of black powder. Load the case to just a 1/16 of an inch above where the bottom of the bullet seats. No double charges that way and the case is full with consistent ignition. That and black powder is a blast. Smithy.

[coloradoblackjack]

"are Kabooms still a problem in 45LC?"

 

just finding Kabooms is the problem...they haven't made the cereal since the '70s.

those wacky cereal clowns were funny...and nutritious.

 

 

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Are Kabooms still a problem in 45LC?

 

Howdy

 

Funny you should ask. Here is a current thread from another gun board. If you read all the way through it you will see somebody has posted a theory about the 'detonation' question.

 

 

 

Link

[Seldom Seen #16162]

Gun powders especially made for CAS have come along. Take a look at Trail Boss;

 

"Trail Boss is designed specifically for low velocity lead bullet loads suitable for Cowboy Action shooting. It is primarily a pistol powder, but has some application in rifle. It is based on a whole new technology which allows very high loading density, good flow through powder measures, stability in severe temperature variation and most importantly, additional safety to the handloader."

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

ANY cartridge not loaded properly can pose a potential problem....never heard of a 45 Colt loaded properly to ever pose a problem.

 

GG ~

Edited January 10, 2012 by Gunner Gatlin, SASS # 10274

[Dick Dastardly SASS #45219]

Never a problem when loading black powder. No way to get a double charge in cuz one charge fills the case up. So, for safety's sake, shoot Genuine Powder, the One True Powder, Black Powder. It's the powder that the 45 Colt was made for.

 

DD-MDA

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Funny you should ask. Here is a current thread from another gun board. If you read all the way through it you will see somebody has posted a theory about the 'detonation' question...... (see DJ's post if you want to read that link)

I shoot a smokeless load that is almost exactly what the shooter who had the revolver blow up shoots. A couple of tenths higher for the 700X, and a 230 grain slug rather than a 225 bullet. Never have had any signs of unusual pressures high or low. A fine load. The loader seems to be fairly new to using a progressive press, was loading a small lot of a load he had never made before, and probably stuck a second bullet due to a cracked case or bullet stuck in the seating die due to lube buildup.

 

EVERY round coming off a 650 (or most other progressive loaders) must be verified that it has a bullet seated in it. If you find one case with no bullet, just powder, or some powder loose in the collecting tray, then you have to immediately stop and find where that "missing" bullet is! Sticky seating dies will hold a bullet for one or several cases, then release it, putting two bullets into a case. That is a dangerous situation. Not only are you then going to be pushing twice the bullet weight, but the powder is most likely both compressed and will be burning in about 20% of the normal space in the case. THAT WILL lead to a pressure excursion (aka, damage to gun and possibly the shooter).

 

Good reminders, DJ and AJ!

 

GJ

Edited January 10, 2012 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

I shoot a smokeless load that is almost exactly what the shooter who had the revolver blow up shoots. A couple of tenths higher for the 700X, and a 230 grain slug rather than a 225 bullet. Never have had any signs of unusual pressures high or low. A fine load. The loader seems to be fairly new to using a progressive press, was loading a small lot of a load he had never made before, and probably stuck a second bullet due to a cracked case or bullet stuck in the seating die due to lube buildup.

 

Actually Joe, the shooter chimed in again on the third page of the post. He has been loading for over 40 years. That's what makes this one so scary.

 

If you read through the entire thread, you will see the photos I took of 45 Colt rounds with two bullets in them. You will also see where I posted about a theory regarding light loads and detonations.

 

The Original Poster does think he somehow managed to double charge a round.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

If there is a concern just weigh your cartridges in question - any deviation would show I guess....

 

 

I did that with a suspect BP round one time and there was a noticable difference between the two and lo and behold - I had forgot to put in my BP charge....

 

GG ~

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Ballistic labs have tried to *replicate the mysterious detonations so far without success.*

If you decide on 45 colt and want better performance when it comes to hand loading for the game.

As Dusty mentioned their is the Cowboy 45 Special round. http://www.cowboy45special.com/cowboy45brass.html safer with smokeless and more cost effective with black powder.

Their is a carrier/lifter available for 1860 Henry,1866 and 1873 rifles to allow the use of the C45S.

http://www.cowboy45special.com/Cowboy_toggle_link_carriers.html

Adirondack Jack took the unneeded middle out of the 45 colt,something to ponder on. Adios Sgt. Jake

 

Not Quite true ,,,,,,, But if you use proper powders and recommended loads from proven data providers the grand old Colt is as safe as any cartridge and safer than some ...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

Edited January 10, 2012 by Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

If there is a concern just weigh your cartridges in question - any deviation would show I guess....

 

I wish I had a nickel for every time I have heard that. Sorry, it is not a reliable way to determine how much powder is in a cartridge. Commercial bullets can easily vary by a grain or two, bullet to bullet, even from the same box. With very light loads of Smokeless powder, the deviation of bullet weights could easily mask a one or two grain deviation in powder charges. With fast burning powders like Bullseye, one or two grains of variation could be a big problem.

 

Weighing cartridges is a good idea if you suspect you somehow seated two bullets. But it is not a reliable way to ascertain powder charges.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

 

 

Not Quite true ,,,,,,, But if you use proper powders and recommended loads from proven data providers the grand old Colt is as safe as any cartridge and safer than some ...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

Interesting comment. Have you got any reports from a lab that shows a detonation with any commercially available canister powder?

[Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428]

Driftwood,

 

After having read your posts on that other board, I just have to say you are very well spoken, and made your point clearly and with a level head despite the arguments of the unenlightened. As an engineer, I found your explanation made perfect sense.

 

 

Personally, I don't worry much about light load issues as I prefer to load Black Powder in my 45's and 44-40's...and 12ga and 10ga and some 20ga. I don't tend to load in the lower half of the load charts for my non-cowboy guns either.

[Jake MacReedy, SASS #34622]

I have a 4 3/4" .44 Special Colt SAA for sale, it you;re interested. I sent you a PM regarding this.

 

Regards,

Jake

[rcd567]

I have a 4 3/4" .44 Special Colt SAA for sale, it you;re interested. I sent you a PM regarding this.

 

Regards,

Jake

 

Got it, sent one back your direction.

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

Back in the 70's, (1970's), Bullseye shooters were having problems with .38s blowing up with light loads. Eventually, they figured out that if you have too light a powder charge, as the cartridge care sits horizontally in the chamber, the powder lays flat in the case, and the primer is exposed to air in the case. The result is that when the primer pops, it doesn't burn the powder from one end, but from the top of the charge, causing a pressure wave to blow up through the side of the case, blowing the side out of the cylinder. I can see how the same thing could happen in a .45 Colt.

[Rio Brazos Kid]

As my other thread stated, I've been away awhile. Mid to late 90's was when I was into CAS. Back then there was a thought neither proven or dispelled that a small amount of powder in a large 45 Long Colt case could detonate causing a Kaboom. While I had my doubts, I didn't worry about it as I shot a moderate load in 44 Special. I checked my supply and find I still have two, two gallon ice cream buckets full of loaded 44 Special cowboy ammo loaded up and 1000 200 grain cast bullets on hand. A quick check shows that 44 Special has dropped off in popularity as I can't seem to find much in Colt SAA or 1873 or 1866 rifles.

 

I did find a Colt SAA w/4 3/4" barrel, colored case hardened/blue finish, in 44 special caliber. Cabela's listed it as sold for $1950 dollars. Holy smoke wagons batman! I don't really believe I want to drop that kind of coin. I'm not dropping my search for a SAA in 44 Special and really want a short rifle in the same caliber in a 1873. I've got some emails out to Cimarron and to USFA. We'll see what those bring.

 

But in the event I can't get what I want for a year or so, I may have to rethink the caliber thing. So tell me, is the 45 Long Colt any safer today than it was say 20 years ago?

 

Pressure excursions, (or Kabooms as you call them), are the product of using a very light charge of very slow burning powders in Bottle Neck cases. There are several theories on this, but as far as I know, nothing concrete has been discovered and they haven't been able to duplicate or create then in laboratory testing.

 

THe 45 Long Colt is neither a bottle neck case, and powders useful in this caliber are not even close to the slow powders that cause the pressure excursions. In fact the powders used in ANY straight walled pistol case are indeed among the fastest burning powders available.

 

Methinks this is just a B.S. carryover that actually has nothing to do with the 45 L.C. in the first place. I have never heard of such in my nearly 60 years of reloading and studying of Interior Ballistics. In Rifles, YES, but in Pistols or Pistol caliber rifle loads, never. Fact is it won't even happen in reduced Bottle Neck Rifle loads, when the faster powders are used. Only happens with very slow burning rifle powders.

 

RBK