Tex's Chronicle article

[Anvil Al #59168]

Sorry for getting back into this so late. I had to go out to dinner and celebrate a birthday. West coast time also caused a delay.

 

AA,

 

Where have you been for the last two years. I have been right here pushing for FCGF for at least that long, if not longer. If you think I'm whining about losing, ya ok. I can deal with that. As far as me leaving, yes I might do that. Many folks have said right here in this sight, if you're not happy with what's going on, show them by taking your MONEY elsewhere. Is one person leavin going to help? NO. But I don't have to give up my cash for something I don't feel good about.

 

AA,

 

What class do you shoot in?? How about we get rid of that class to make room for, oh let's say "Farting Dust" (ANOTHER AGE BASED CATEGORY)I read something about Ruger Blackhawks? Really? That's PF uncowboy in my view. Never seen a BH in any cowboy movies. So somebody had to create a special class just so BH owners could play with thier toys, right?

 

How many "Old Fart" classes do we have? We could certainly trim that down by a few? BW is a costume class, we could certainly allow BW folks to shoot in any class they want, and if they want to be recognized for thier costumes, they could enter the costume contest.

 

 

Do you see my post about how in 3 random shoots, almost half the classes had less than 5 shooters. Let's scrub those classes. Those folks could surely find another class to shoot in. Senior Gunfighter?? Why?

 

Because it comes down to this. EVERYBODY WANTS TO WIN. EVERYBODY WANTS THE BUCKLE. So SASS has to make a place for every shooter to have a chance at winning thier class. Almost every club in the country will offer FCGF if somebody asks for it. (THANKS FOR THAT BY THE WAY). All we are asking is for SASS to make it an official class, so we too can be recognized just like everybody else.

 

AA, you last comment is pretty f'in short sighted. Any business person will tell you, you have to give the people what they want. The demand for 1 extra class is here, there is just too many others with thier heads burried in the sand to see what's going on.

 

Best regards,

 

MFDG

 

 

I shoot Duelist and shot GFer for a few years. Still do now and then. And YES. I would be willing combine those categorys. Even though it would sure hurt me in the standing. But YES. I am willing to give up something.

 

As for the categorys that have less than 5 YEP. Cut them. Would be fine with me. I would vote for that.

It is almost to the point of just handing out buckles when you show up. As with so many categorys. There is TO MANY without enough shooters in them.

I would be fine with adding FCGF if we can cut something else. Or combine FCD and FCGF together.

 

 

And it is not just the demand for one more. As soon as that is here. There WILL be a cry for JUST ONE MORE.

How many JUST ONE MORE can we add.

And I have already heard some say they want Sr GFer. So combine Sr GFer and Sr Duelist.

Combine Duelist and GFer.

Let them shoot GFer in Frontiersman.

 

You will keep fighting for it. And unless we can combine or cut something else. I will keep fighting against it.

With it getting voted down this many times in just a few years.

It looks like other feel the same way. By saying enough already.

[Marshal Phil DeGrave SASS #55202]

Sounds like you've said your piece, thanks for participating.

 

Let's get down to the nuts of this thing. WHY is anyone opposed to adding any more classes? What's the REAL reason?

 

Is it cost? The Cadillacs cost too much? (Sorry Phantom, I just had to say it)

 

Your butt gets too sore sitting around listening to all the class winners?

 

Having troubles trying to remember all the different classes?

 

I'm very happy to hear that most of you have a happy place to play this game. I chose FCGF because for me it is the biggest challenge, and the most fun I can have at a shoot. If somebody wants a class to find thier happy spot (Left handed, short arms, small hands, bald head, hairy back, dusty farts, mouse fart loads) I say we should give it a shot. What do we have to lose?

 

You will keep fighting for it. And unless we can combine or cut something else. I will keep fighting against it.

With it getting voted down this many times in just a few years.

It looks like other feel the same way. By saying enough already.

 

The problem I see is the "others" are are broken records. "No New Categories" is getting old. Stale thinking might be one of the reasons SASS growth has slowed.

[Rex M Rugers #6621]

After reading all the previous posts on this thread , I have seen several comments that FCGF category was "voted down" at the Govenor's Convention. If I am remembering correctly , at last year's meeting , the issue actually had a majority vote , just not a 2/3rds majority.

In my feeble mind , that is not quite being "voted down" as much as "feet dragging". And I am sure that FCGF would not be popular in every area of the country. But , it would be very popular in some.

And protracted arguing here on the Wire is most likely useless.

Good night to all , Rex

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I've met...like...thousands of young folks that said they'd love to join SASS if only there was a FCGF class...

 

And as far as the BH question goes, the class was put in place 'cuz back in the day most folks had them...and in order to get the ball rolling for this game, Modern and Traditional classes were formed.

 

Sorry...just don't see it...or purhaps we should simple go to FC and make it an open class...one handed, two handed...or one in each hand. Kinda like we do with BW.

 

Cheers!

Phantom

[crooked jake,4371]

I've met...like...thousands of young folks that said they'd love to join SASS if only there was a FCGF class...

 

And as far as the BH question goes, the class was put in place 'cuz back in the day most folks had them...and in order to get the ball rolling for this game, Modern and Traditional classes were formed.

 

Sorry...just don't see it...or purhaps we should simple go to FC and make it an open class...one handed, two handed...or one in each hand. Kinda like we do with BW.

 

Cheers!

Phantom

 

 

Now THAT is a good idea!!!!!!!!

[Marshal Phil DeGrave SASS #55202]

I've met...like...thousands of young folks that said they'd love to join SASS if only there was a FCGF class...

 

And as far as the BH question goes, the class was put in place 'cuz back in the day most folks had them...and in order to get the ball rolling for this game, Modern and Traditional classes were formed.

 

Sorry...just don't see it...or purhaps we should simple go to FC and make it an open class...one handed, two handed...or one in each hand. Kinda like we do with BW.

 

Cheers!

Phantom

 

 

Phantom,

 

I always love your smart_ss remarks. And I see your point. FGCF is probably not the class most first timers are going to try. I started in Frontiersman and worked my way up.

 

The problem I see with your suggestion is you would be taking a growing class and chopping it off at the knees.

 

So again, besides the default broken record "No more new classes" what are your objections??

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Phantom,

 

I always love your smart_ss remarks. And I see your point. FGCF is probably not the class most first timers are going to try. I started in Frontiersman and worked my way up.

 

The problem I see with your suggestion is you would be taking a growing class and chopping it off at the knees.

 

So again, besides the default broken record "No more new classes" what are your objections??

 

 

Yup - I started shooting with two hands, then duelist, then double -duelist, and then GF - it was a prgression - an evolution - to the best and most challenging way to shoot SASS ~ for me at least. I truly beleive that FCGF (especially Pale Rider) is the most entertaining of all ways to shoot...and the folks that come to watch sure love to be entertained

 

 

 

GG ~

[Errol Plain, SASS #47739]

Here's my vote!

 

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a259/KPHB17FE/Cowboy%20stuff/Plate.jpg

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Here's my vote!

 

[/img]

 

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a259/KPHB17FE/Cowboy%20stuff/Plate.jpg

 

WAY COOL!!!!

 

GG ~

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Here's my vote!

 

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a259/KPHB17FE/Cowboy%20stuff/Plate.jpg

 

This forum needs a "LIKE" button!

[Rev Willy Dunkum, SASS # 61027]

Here's my vote!

 

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a259/KPHB17FE/Cowboy%20stuff/Plate.jpg

 

 

That's putting your money where your mouth is! Definitely like!

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

FYI...this is the "stand alone" agenda item as presented at the 2010 TG Summit:

 

3. Should we create the new sanctioned shooting category “Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter”? The category would follow the firearm and ammo guidelines of the current “Frontier Cartridge” category and follow the shooting style and holster requirements of the current “Gunfighter” Category.

 

The main reason to add FCGF to the list of "officially recognized" categories is that it brings the BP categories up to par with the smokeless ones in regard to available shooting styles.

 

Smokeless = Open/age-based (two-handed); Duelist/Senior Duelist/Classic (one-handed); Gunfighter/B-Western (both hands)

 

Black Powder = Frontier Ctg (two-handed); Frontiersman/Frontier Ctg Duelist (one-handed); FCGF (both hands)

 

Based on that stated justification for adding the category, many members of the "NO NEW CATEGORIES" camp expressed support for the issue.

 

BTW - The TG vote on a proposal to allow GF in all AGE-BASED categories (2008) was split about 50/50 (as was allowing "butt forward" carry for GF competitors).

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Phantom,

 

I always love your smart_ss remarks. And I see your point. FGCF is probably not the class most first timers are going to try. I started in Frontiersman and worked my way up.

 

The problem I see with your suggestion is you would be taking a growing class and chopping it off at the knees.

 

So again, besides the default broken record "No more new classes" what are your objections??

 

Hmm...probably nuthin other then the addition of more categories.

 

That said Marshal, I just don't think the addition of the FCGF is an issue that is anywhere near the top of the list of important issues that SASS should deal with.

 

Just my opinion...

 

Cheers!

Phantom

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

In my years with SASS I have seen categories come and go, change, or morph into something else - FCGF will become a category someday, it's certainly is on the uprise....just wish it were sooner...

 

So I decided I ain't gonna bother with the naysayers...'cause someday it will simply be the FCGR's sayin 'told ya so'

 

 

GG ~

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

In my years with SASS I have seen categories come and go, change, or morph into something else - FCGF will become a category someday, it's certainly is on the uprise....just wish it were sooner...

 

So I decided I ain't gonna bother with the naysayers...'cause someday it will simply be the FCGR's sayin 'told ya so'

 

 

GG ~

 

It's on the Uprise?! Where do you get that?

 

Trying to demonize/deminsh those that don't think it needs to be a category is not an impressive arguement. All these "naysayers" in the end won't lose any sleep over it becoming a category...but that doesn't mean that us "naysayers" still feel that there are other more important issues to be spending time debating.

 

And frankly, being a FCGF don't make you more "Cowboy" then any other category shooter.

 

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

It's on the Uprise?! Where do you get that?

 

Trying to demonize/deminsh those that don't think it needs to be a category is not an impressive arguement. All these "naysayers" in the end won't lose any sleep over it becoming a category...but that doesn't mean that us "naysayers" still feel that there are other more important issues to be spending time debating.

 

And frankly, being a FCGF don't make you more "Cowboy" then any other category shooter.

 

Never said that

 

Not 'demonizing' anyone - you're one of the 'naysayers' (against it) and I am one that's for it....and as mentioned - I don't care if ya'll lose sleep over it or not, just as I am not going to lose sleep over those 'against it'

 

...and like you, ...just my opinion

 

GG ~

[The Shoer 27979]

It's on the Uprise?! Where do you get that?

 

Trying to demonize/deminsh those that don't think it needs to be a category is not an impressive arguement. All these "naysayers" in the end won't lose any sleep over it becoming a category...but that doesn't mean that us "naysayers" still feel that there are other more important issues to be spending time debating.

 

And frankly, being a FCGF don't make you more "Cowboy" then any other category shooter.

 

 

I was the only FCGF for a long time in my club, now there are 6 of us and 2 more talking about it, so ya I would say that it is on the uprise.

[Blackwater 53393]

Having spent a lot of time, money, and miles traveling to matches, particularly in the Southeast and Midwest, I think it is safe to say that the support for FCGF is overwhelming in those areas. It is also safe to say that it is probably the fastest growing category in this area, closely followed by the Outlaw category.

 

I can't quote you scripture and verse or a bunch of statistics, but out of the twenty or so major matches I attended last year, FCGF was offered more often than not, and with the exception of one match, was not the least populated category.

 

More categories is not really a problem of overwhelming importance. Having seen the internal workings of several clubs in the last couple of years, the "extra awards" problem has not been a big problem to most of those clubs. A little creativity in the awards department can completely make this a non-issue.

 

I don't always shoot this or any other category, but this is one that SHOULD be offered on a national scale. And yeah, let's break the "no new categories" record up and throw it in the trash,'cause it's starting to look, sound, and smell like the old "party lever" in politics!!

[Anvil Al #59168]

If it is so old. How come just in the last 3 years it has failed each time up????

 

 

Yes. There is people who shoot it. And I think it will go. And be a pretty good category. Better than many

out there.

BUT. For every shooter that signs up for it. You are pulling from OTHER categorys. Making them

even smaller than they are. I am thinking about those category also. Not just FCGF. Or anyother

category that comes up.

It's called robbing petter to pay paul. And THAT is short sided.

Just how small do you want them????

It has become a joke at monthly matches. After shooting, just say whatever you shot in. You won and

be done with it. It's a joke.

I just don't see how we can keep cutting more pieces of that pie that is already pretty darn thin.

 

Cut some to make room for FCGF???? I would be all for it and vote heck yes to FCGF.

Combine some together to make for a STRONG category instead of a bunch of weak ones??? I would be all for it.

AND YES. I would include my own category in that also.

 

Think this "lets have a category for every little thing" is old. And a JOKE at that.

When in a hole. Ya got to stop digging. Or the hole just gets deeper.

[The Shoer 27979]

If it is so old. How come just in the last 3 years it has failed each time up????

 

 

Yes. There is people who shoot it. And I think it will go. And be a pretty good category. Better than many

out there.

BUT. For every shooter that signs up for it. You are pulling from OTHER categorys. maybe FCGF is pulling from other catagorys because those people had no other choice at the time Making them

even smaller than they are. I am thinking about those category also. Not just FCGF. Or anyother

category that comes up.

It's called robbing petter to pay paul. And THAT is short sided.

Just how small do you want them????

It has become a joke at monthly matches. After shooting, just say whatever you shot in. You won and

be done with it. It's a joke.

I just don't see how we can keep cutting more pieces of that pie that is already pretty darn thin.

 

Cut some to make room for FCGF???? I would be all for it and vote heck yes to FCGF.

Combine some together to make for a STRONG category instead of a bunch of weak ones??? I would be all for it.

AND YES. I would include my own category in that also.

 

I think this "lets have a category for every little thing" is old. And a JOKE at that.

 

I don't care one way or the other if FCGF makes it or not I shoot how I want when I want and don't care about what category I am in

[Oklahomabound]

...the FCGF category as well as the older categories are not going away. They will be brought up time and again until we deal with this adequately.

 

...and the matrix idea that was mentioned above, needs to be thought through because it gives the complete solution....

[Marshal Phil DeGrave SASS #55202]

Good Day AA,

 

Just a thought here.

 

Yes. There is people who shoot it. And I think it will go. And be a pretty good category. Better than many

out there.

BUT. For every shooter that signs up for it. You are pulling from OTHER categorys. Making them

even smaller than they are. I am thinking about those category also. Not just FCGF. Or anyother

category that comes up.

 

If folks are moving from one category to another, maybe one reason is they would like to try something different, or more challenging. Or maybe they are bored. There is another thread here that asks how to keep from getting "burned out" My answer has always been try something new.

[Anvil Al #59168]

If folks are moving from one category to another, maybe one reason is they would like to try something different, or more challenging. Or maybe they are bored. There is another thread here that asks how to keep from getting "burned out" My answer has always been try something new.

 

Which can be done in the categorys we already have.

I do think something needs to change. And that people that want to shoot

FCGF can. And in with others that shoot FC.

COMBINE FCD and FCGF would do just that without adding a category.

It would just make one good strong category. As having shoot Duelist and GFer for years.

I see no real advantage to either one against the other. They are about even.

 

So yes. I think we need to do somthing. But just adding I don't feel is the correct, long term answer.

"It's just one more" is what we hear now. But as soon as it goes in. There WELL BE a cry somewhere else

asking for theres. And it will be "it's just one more"

 

We need to be combineing like categorys, to make good, strong, high entry categorys.

Not just make more little ones.

[Blackwater 53393]

Al, I ain't trying to be confrontational here, but if this is a JOKE, why are you one of only a very few laughing. The measure got a majority just short of adequate last year standing on its own, and you could see the poison pill that somebody managed to feed it this year with its inclusion in a really STUPID measure submitted this time was placed there to kill it this time.

 

As to "winning", any time you oppose something simply because it doesn't suit you , everybody loses. To exclude any group of people that often make up a larger percentage of shooters than several other well established categories is wrong. To those who say "Just go shoot Gunfighter," or other less than acceptable answers, maybe you should have to shoot Duelist when you normally shoot "traditional" or weak handed or the like and see how you feel about it.

 

Many monthly matches are as you describe. We aren't talking about those, and to try to inject them into this conversation, (or debate, if you prefer) is just blowing smoke!

 

As to the categories we already have, they don't allow me to shoot gunfighter in anything but Gunfighter and B-Western. For BW I have to buy or borrow a different holster rig and probably boots and spurs. I'm already at a disadvantage if I shoot my cap'n'ball pistols on FC. Why would I want to further handicap myself in another smokeless category. As has been said, there is no provision for Black Powder shooters to shoot the Gunfighter discipline in ANY Black Powder category. In all fairness there is NO argument the passes the smell test in view of this one fact!!!

[Guest Joe West, SASS#1532 L Regulator]

Pard when you said "there is no provision for Black Powder shooters to shoot the Gunfighter discipline in ANY Black Powder category. In all fairness there is NO argument the passes the smell test in view of this one fact!!! " that pretty much nails it.

Joe

[Anvil Al #59168]

Al, I ain't trying to be confrontational here, but if this is a JOKE, why are you one of only a very few laughing. The measure got a majority just short of adequate last year standing on its own, and you could see the poison pill that somebody managed to feed it this year with its inclusion in a really STUPID measure submitted this time was placed there to kill it this time.

 

As to "winning", any time you oppose something simply because it doesn't suit you , everybody loses. To exclude any group of people that often make up a larger percentage of shooters than several other well established categories is wrong. To those who say "Just go shoot Gunfighter," or other less than acceptable answers, maybe you should have to shoot Duelist when you normally shoot "traditional" or weak handed or the like and see how you feel about it.

 

Many monthly matches are as you describe. We aren't talking about those, and to try to inject them into this conversation, (or debate, if you prefer) is just blowing smoke!

 

As to the categories we already have, they don't allow me to shoot gunfighter in anything but Gunfighter and B-Western. For BW I have to buy or borrow a different holster rig and probably boots and spurs. I'm already at a disadvantage if I shoot my cap'n'ball pistols on FC. Why would I want to further handicap myself in another smokeless category. As has been said, there is no provision for Black Powder shooters to shoot the Gunfighter discipline in ANY Black Powder category. In all fairness there is NO argument the passes the smell test in view of this one fact!!!

 

 

Sure monthly have something to do with it. As that is where most of the shooting gets done. And they are

going be be offering it there also. As every monthly I have ever went to has offered all SASS categorys. So to say it does not have anything to do with it is wrong.

 

And I am not the only one. Think the vote was 48% against. That is only 2% off from 50/50.

That is MORE THAN JUST ME.

 

And as I said. We need to do something. But just don't think adding another category is it. As it IS more than

just one more. It is 2 (don't forget the ladys)

And then someone else will say WHAT ABOUT ME. As in the artical in the CC. Someone is wanting a new category for

TV Westerns. And have heard people say something about wanting Sr GFer. Just how many more will be enough??

 

What would be wrong with combineing FCD and FCGF together????

What would be wrong with letting Frontiersman Shoot GF style in that category also.

 

As long as we got this many categoery. I will fight against ANY new category to be added.

Even if the likes of FCGF has a place. (and I think it does)

 

Say it is old thinking all you want. But others MUST have been feeling this same way the last 3 years or it would have passed.

I am just the only one holding my ground here.

And I WON'T be beat down, or put down for it. I will stand for what I think is right. Just as you are.

 

 

And when it passes (which I think it will before long) I will not miss any sleep or miss one match because of it.

 

And don't see how anybody could look at our current category system and not say it's a joke when we have

SO MANY categorys with so few in them.

[Blackwater 53393]

I'm not trying to beat anybody down. I do however feel that your 48% statement is completely misleading. As I said before, and you'll have to agree, the vote this year was cast on an untennable proposal which was written to fail, i.e. a poison pill. The year before it failed by only a few percentage points. If left to stand on its own this year it likely would have passed easily.

 

Ah.... If it weren't for Tex's position the wild bunch would have done it by edict like they did when they added it to EOT last year. There was little or no fall off in other categories and FCGF was a real success there...............GO FIGURE!!

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Never said that

 

Not 'demonizing' anyone - you're one of the 'naysayers' (against it) and I am one that's for it....and as mentioned - I don't care if ya'll lose sleep over it or not, just as I am not going to lose sleep over those 'against it'

 

...and like you, ...just my opinion

 

GG ~

 

Geeze...

 

A Naysayer is a person who says something will not work or is not possible...where did anyone say that?

 

And hell, I don't lose sleep over anything related to CAS/SASS...

 

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Geeze...

 

A Naysayer is a person who says something will not work or is not possible...where did anyone say that?

 

And hell, I don't lose sleep over anything related to CAS/SASS...

 

 

OY ...I guess I'm a 'yaysayer' pard....it will all get worked out one way or the other I reckon.

 

GG ~

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

...

Ah.... If it weren't for Tex's position the wild bunch would have done it by edict like they did when they added it to EOT last year. There was little or no fall off in other categories and FCGF was a real success there...............GO FIGURE!!

 

Adding FCGF (and SGF) to the EoT applications last year demonstrated the MD's option to add whatever categories they choose for ANY event ...which, IMO, was the "poison pill" repeatedly mentioned during the 2010 Summit agenda discussions that prevented the category from gaining official recognition by the Territorial Governors.

 

FWIW - The WB rarely mandates rule changes, having delegated that function to the TG's as representatives of the members of SASS.

[Anvil Al #59168]

I'm not trying to beat anybody down. I do however feel that your 48% statement is completely misleading. As I said before, and you'll have to agree, the vote this year was cast on an untennable proposal which was written to fail, i.e. a poison pill. The year before it failed by only a few percentage points. If left to stand on its own this year it likely would have passed easily.

 

Ah.... If it weren't for Tex's position the wild bunch would have done it by edict like they did when they added it to EOT last year. There was little or no fall off in other categories and FCGF was a real success there...............GO FIGURE!!

 

 

But it still failed. As it did as a stand alone item the 2 years before.

And I DO think FCGF will work and be a good category.

 

But the system is so watered down. I just can not vote for ANY category until we combine or cut

some others.

 

The whole dang thing needs a overhaul.

To just keep adding does not make it better.