Rancho Roy Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Update on 1858 Remington Conversions with Cowboy 45 Spl and 45-SLIM bullets.... http://images38.fotki.com/v1220/photos/2/36012/10288332/Picture002-vi.jpg Took the 1858s with the 45LC cylinder conversions to the range yesterday. http://images110.fotki.com/v615/photos/2/36012/10295030/DSC_4063-vi.jpg This picture shows the Cowboy 45spl brass, and loaded rounds next to a standard 45LC for comparison. The lubed and unlubed boolits in the front are the 45-SLIM with a 200g and 255g in the rear for comparison. CB45spl brass - 45 SLIM - 12g Blackhorn 209...............GREAT accuracy and perfect POA at 25 feet. I couldn't be more pleased. Both revolvers performed superbly. http://images61.fotki.com/v219/photos/2/36012/10288332/20120101_122755_320-vi.jpg The Blackhorn powder is wonderful. Lots of great smoke and sparks with a very impressive fireball, but near zero clean up. Same cleanup as smokeless powder. I know it will not be legal in CAS as black powder, but it will be fun in the other classes. I sure wish it wasn't $30 for 10oz! I also loaded 4g of Trai Boss with similar results: http://images39.fotki.com/v1229/photos/2/36012/10288332/20120101_122805_261-vi.jpg This load had a bit more recoil, but nothing to get excited about. Both loads were in the area of a 38 special in the recoil department. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowhand Bob, 24229 Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Very close to my set. I am shooting the short barl Pietta Remmys with Kirst solid plate converters and the Cowboy 45 Special brass. I do like the guns without ports cut, as this makes them convertable for use in Frontiersman. It is my hope to try some of the ultra-lite bullets early this year in the place of my 160 grainers. Years ago I settled in on the bp subs for my cartridge loading, puts me in the most fun categorys SASS has to offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Texas Jack Black Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 The cowboy 45 spl case is a great one, AJ came up with a winner. Best of luck T J B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 The cowboy 45 spl case is a great one, AJ came up with a winner. Best of luck T J B Yep...been using them in my NMV with BP for about 4 years now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 ... The Blackhorn powder is wonderful. Lots of great smoke and sparks with a very impressive fireball, but near zero clean up. Same cleanup as smokeless powder. I know it will not be legal in CAS as black powder, but it will be fun in the other classes. I sure wish it wasn't $30 for 10oz! ... Howdy Roy, Blackhorn 209 is NOT LEGAL for SASS use in ANY category. (related thread) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Sgt. Jake McCandless #3368 Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Roy I normally shoot black powder in the C45S case. That said I won a can of Hodgdon triple seven 2 fg. I finally got around to trying it this past summer,I have at one time played around with most of the subs from Golden C through triple seven. With the exception of the original Black Mag,Triple Seven has got to be one of the better subs to come along. Check here http://www.cowboy45special.com/User_data.html For some good T7 data by AJ himself. T 7 cleans up as well as blackhorn,doesn't have the nasty detractors of Pyrodex. Give it a try as it took me years to get around to it and it's Legal for SASS. Good luck Sgt. Jake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rancho Roy Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 Propellants containing nitrocellulose are prohibited as blackpowder substitutes.Any combination of smokeless and blackpowder (so called duplex loads) is specifically prohibited . "Propellants containing nitrocellulose are prohibited as blackpowder substitutes."...OK, I get it. No nitro in the black powder classes...... "Any combination of smokeless and blackpowder (so called duplex loads) is specifically prohibited" Interesting............The words "duplex loads" refers to a manufactured powder and not the activity of combining powders in your reloading room? My understanding is that Blackhorn does not contain ANY black powder. Just for giggles, can someone show me where Blackhorn is specifically banned..........? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Roy, If Pale Wolf Brunelle says so, yeah, that's the law. He is our very reliable representative from the rules committee. I've never used the stuff myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Sgt. Jake McCandless #3368 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Here is from the shooters handbook page 12 titled ammunition, Throughout this manual, blackpowder means blackpowder, or a blackpowder substitute such as Pyrodex, 777, APP, or comparable propellants intended for muzzle loading firearms. Propellants containing nitrocellulose are prohibited as blackpowder substitutes. Any combination of smokeless and blackpowder (so called duplex loads) is specifically prohibited. See here from previous thread posted by Pale Wolf http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=166034&st=0&p=2140672&hl=blackhorn&fromsearch=1entry2140672 It Contains Nitrocellulose with in it's make up,so as far as SASS is concerned it's Banned,Not Legal. As AJ said convince Pale Wolf otherwise. Adios Sgt. Jake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Regret, SASS #57800 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 It Contains Nitrocellulose with in it's make up,so as far as SASS is concerned it's Banned,Not Legal. As AJ said convince Pale Wolf otherwise. Adios Sgt. Jake Not arguing for or against Blackhorn 209, but the above statement cannot be true because virtually all current powders are nitrocellulose based! "Today, propellants based on nitrocellulose alone (typically an ether-alcohol colloid of nitrocellulose) are described as single-base powder,[8] whereas cordite-like mixtures using nitroglycerin to dissolve the nitrocellulose are known as double-base powder.[9] Single and double-base smokeless powders now make up the vast majority of propellants used in firearms." Where can I find the actual text of the SASS ban on nitrocellulose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Not arguing for or against Blackhorn 209, but the above statement cannot be true because virtually all current powders are nitrocellulose based! "Today, propellants based on nitrocellulose alone (typically an ether-alcohol colloid of nitrocellulose) are described as single-base powder,[8] whereas cordite-like mixtures using nitroglycerin to dissolve the nitrocellulose are known as double-base powder.[9] Single and double-base smokeless powders now make up the vast majority of propellants used in firearms." Where can I find the actual text of the SASS ban on nitrocellulose? Read the quote. Nitro is banned in BP categories and anything combining nitro and BP is a duplex load, which is also banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Regret, SASS #57800 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Read the quote. Nitro is banned in BP categories and anything combining nitro and BP is a duplex load, which is also banned. AJ, I read the quote. I will have to look at the composition of Blackhorn 209. My understanding was it was a smokeless powder made to be smokey with pressures comparable to other black powder subs. I did not know it was a combination of black powder and nitrocellulose (smokeless). If you read the quote I quoted it was a "stand alone" statement saying nitrocellulose was not allowed which is nonsensical as that would eliminate all powders, I was simply asking for further clarification. I apologize for wanting to better understand a situation that might impact my participation in this sport. Can you direct me to where I can verify there is no nitrocellulose in Triple Seven or any of the other subs? Thank yu' kindly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 AJ, I read the quote. I will have to look at the composition of Blackhorn 209. My understanding was it was a smokeless powder made to be smokey with pressures comparable to other black powder subs. I did not know it was a combination of black powder and nitrocellulose (smokeless). If you read the quote I quoted it was a "stand alone" statement saying nitrocellulose was not allowed which is nonsensical as that would eliminate all powders, I was simply asking for further clarification. I apologize for wanting to better understand a situation that might impact my participation in this sport. Can you direct me to where I can verify there is no nitrocellulose in Triple Seven or any of the other subs? Thank yu' kindly. Contact the makers or their websites for the required MSDS filings that show any potentially hazardous composition. Look, for example at Clays, and see nitroglycerin and nitrocellulose. Compare the sheet for Triple Seven, you find neither listed.... http://www.hodgdon.com/msds.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Regret, SASS #57800 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Contact the makers or their websites for the required MSDS (?) filings that show composition. Getting a little, no quite a bit above my paygrade. Triple Seven doesn't contain nitrocellulose but does contain "Nitro" "Sources confirm that "Triple Se7en is hopped up with a little Nitro." Well, that is the case according to the United State's most respected forensic lab dealing with bomb residue identification. The lab analyzed Triple Se7en, and found what other chemists already had suspected: sodium dinitrobenzoate sulfonate. To ship sodium dinitrobenzoate sulfonate as a dry powder you must ship it as an explosive. It is sensitive to impact and friction. Made into a paste with water, 20% water, it can then ship as a flammable solid-- see the D.O.T. for details. It is well-documented that the "dinitros" are used in low explosives while "trinitros" are employed in high explosives. Likely you have already guessed the most well-known of these, "TNT"-- or, trinitrotoluene." Think I'll just stick to the Holy Black and Clays...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Getting a little, no quite a bit above my paygrade. Triple Seven doesn't contain nitrocellulose but does contain "Nitro" "Sources confirm that "Triple Se7en is hopped up with a little Nitro." Well, that is the case according to the United State's most respected forensic lab dealing with bomb residue identification. The lab analyzed Triple Se7en, and found what other chemists already had suspected: sodium dinitrobenzoate sulfonate. To ship sodium dinitrobenzoate sulfonate as a dry powder you must ship it as an explosive. It is sensitive to impact and friction. Made into a paste with water, 20% water, it can then ship as a flammable solid-- see the D.O.T. for details. It is well-documented that the "dinitros" are used in low explosives while "trinitros" are employed in high explosives. Likely you have already guessed the most well-known of these, "TNT"-- or, trinitrotoluene." Think I'll just stick to the Holy Black and Clays...... NITROGEN is in AIR (inert gas). Nitrocellulose or nitroglycerin are what we're talking about, not some nitrobenzoate.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rancho Roy Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 This has turned into a very educational thread.............Thanks! Rather than discussing powder formulations and playing kitchen chemist, how would those of us that would like to use Blackhorn 209 get the SASS powers to be to allow it in the Non-Blackpowder classes? This powder has a historical significance. It performs visually very much like the transitional powders that were developed between straight BP and what we know today as Smokeless. And this period of time works perfectly with a C&B revolver being converted to cartridge. Please help me understand..........Is the ban due to safety reasons or is the added smoke the issue? For those of you that have not used Blackhorn, it smokes about 50% less than BP and 50% more than smokeless. Really fun from a visual and historical perspective.........and after all, that is what SASS is ALL about. As far as safety, certainly it is no more or no less safe than any gunpowder when loaded into a metallic cartridge. I dare say it is safer than Bullseye and other fast powders that can easily be double charged with the results not wanted. I'm new to the game but thus far EXTREMELY impressed with the safety aspects at the meets themselves. As an NRA certified safety instructor, an NRA certified Range Officer and a Massachusetts State Police certified firearms safety instructor, this organizations safety procedures are noticed and greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I would shout out to Palewolf Brunelle for guidance. As above, he is the visible, reachable person who "carries the water" for all things rule related within SASS. Start a new thread entitled, "PWB PLEASE READ" and ask him. I cannot say what thought processes were involved in the decision regarding this propellant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rancho Roy Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 I would shout out to Palewolf Brunelle for guidance. As above, he is the visible, reachable person who "carries the water" for all things rule related within SASS. Start a new thread entitled, "PWB PLEASE READ" and ask him. I cannot say what thought processes were involved in the decision regarding this propellant. Thanks Jack! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hand Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Howdy Roy, Blackhorn 209 is NOT LEGAL for SASS use in ANY category. (related thread) The related thread has some interesting information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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