Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Dee Mak Jack, SASS #55905

45/70 Best smokeless powder ?

Recommended Posts

I just test fired my 45/70 with 3 different powders and there seemed to be quite a difference in accuracy. Shooting a 400 gr FP. I'm not looking for specific load data just want to know if one powder shoots better than the rest. Of the 3 it tried, 2400 shot the cleanest and most accurate. I'm not looking for mag loads, in fact I loaded all 3 powders toward the low end of the spectrum. NO B/P at this time. Thanks and Happy New Year.

 

Dee Mak

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Big question without much info..............

 

What type of gun?

What barrel twist?

What size bullet?

What is the purpose?

 

With the lever action rifles, shooting 425g or less bullets, you would use one type of powder. With the BPCR type rifles shooting 500g + boolits you would use a different type. A Pistol (BFR, TC, etc) still a different powder.

 

If you are looking for traditional BP velocity or if you are trying to duplicate 458 Win Mag performance............different powders.

 

Are you shooting lead or jacketed..............different powders.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've tried various powders in the 45-70 ... Reloder 7; Varget; 4198; and 5744.

Of them, 5744 has given the best and most consistent results.

The others left all kinds of unburnt grains in the bore and with low end loads were unsatisfactory performers.

 

Although you didn't directly ask, Triple 7 works great if you want to foray into BP territory.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have good results with 3031. It is accurate out to 600 yds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep..used 3031 until I went to BP completely. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I use H4198 behind a 405grn bullet. And this is out of a Marlin Cowboy. But I reck'n your going to get lots of different powder options..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been using Unique for "lite" .45-70 loads in my Win. '86, could not be happier.

Use a FIRM crimp.

Cheers,

LG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I prefer 3031 in the 45/70 for smokeeeeeless. I found 4198 to be too position sensitive as there is a ton of air space.

 

I have VARGET and am intending to work up a load for it some day....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been shooting Unique in my Pedersoli Sharps with very good accuracy out to 400 or 500 yards with mild recoil. I have a buffalo load using Reloader 7. I used to load IMR3031 which was a good performer, but like the Unique much more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have used 4198 and 4064 in my 1884 Trapdoor with excellent results. Able to hit things at about 250 to 300 yards with no problems. Not tried any longer ranges.

 

One powder I have not used is Trail Boss. In spite of using for just about everything else (including .30-30, .30-40, .303 British and .30-'06) with good results the loading table indicate it gives a lower muzzle velocity with a much higher pressure than those other 2 powders, so I don't try it in this caliber.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Tommy Reb

I use Unique for lite loads with 350 grain cast bullets. Reasonably clean burning and very accurate. 4895 for heavy hunting loads. Trailboss has also worked well for lite loads. However, accuracy with TB was no better than with Unique, and TB is considerably more expensive. I know a lot of folks have had good success with AA 5744, but I find it leaves way to much unburned powder.

 

TR

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like 3031. Haven't tried a bunch of powders, but I also tried 5744. The unburnt cylindrical powder in the chamber would put little dings in the fired brass. Smokin Gator

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dee Mak, I'm with Tommy Reb on the opinion of AA5744, though the last time I tried it they were still calling it XMP5744. Even with a good roll crimp it left so much residue/unburned powder behind it was tough to chamber rounds in a Marlin levergun. They may have changed the makeup of the powder in the current version but I'd see if you could borrow a small quantity from someone before dropping $20+ on a can.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I prefer 3031 in the 45/70 for smokeeeeeless. I found 4198 to be too position sensitive as there is a ton of air space.

 

I have VARGET and am intending to work up a load for it some day....

 

I have used IMR4198 with bullets in the 385-405gr range, at reduced loads (BP equivalent), but found it necessary to use fillers to gain consistant ignition. I used a 2-inch square of single-ply toilet paper poked LIGHTLY into the case with a wood dowel, then let the bullet compress the filler slightly as it was seated.

 

I've also used IMR3031 for loads from BP equivalent up to some hotter loads in the range of the old Elmer Keith hunting loads. The lighter loads did leave some unburned or partially-burned powder, but this never presented a problem.

 

A better choice was Reloader 7, which again was used in a variety of load levels. I haven't tried Varget yet, though I've seen some data that suggests it might be a good one.

 

Note: While fast-burning pistol powders like Unique, etc., may work for very reduced loads, they take up so little room in the case that they become position sensitive. Tipping the rifle up so the powder is resting against the primer will help, but it is still dependent on getting the positioning consistantly. The relatively slower powders like 3031, RE-7, take up a lot more room in the case, but you have to load them heavily enough to get proper ignition and consistant combustion. I have NOT tried it, but I have seen loads listed in published manuals that even go to powders as slow as H4831! I would expect there to be quite a bit of unburned powder with something that slow. Yeah, I know...that's why a lot of folks use BP or substitutes.

 

Ride easy, but stay alert! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America! :FlagAm:

 

Your Pard,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Used the lyman Max load of Varget for Trapdoors out of my Amri sport Sharps behind a 415 grain Desparado bullet, put 9 rounds in 3-4 inches at 100 yards, best group to date with that rifle. 4 of the rounds were dead horizontal closer narrower than my 4 fingers joined by 1/2 a finger, and I dont have fat fingers. Started 1.5 grains below max and tested .5 increments to max, groups got consistently better as I went hotter.

 

With my Krag did the same thing with 210 grainers trying 5744 and the Varget. 5744 shot better at my starting load. Need to revisit and try .4,.2 above and below that point to see if there is an even better load. The varget as with the sharps, shot better at the top end.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Tommy Reb

Trailrider, your note about faster burning powders in large volume cases being position sensitive is often the case and I have experienced it myself. When I was working up loads with Unique behind 350 grain bullets that is exactly what I expected to see. However, I was surpised to find that was not the case. Velocity and velocity standard deviations were not statistically different for rounds with the powder near the rear of the case and those with powder near the front of the case. Likewise, there was very little difference in velocity standard deviations with or without a case filler. The velocity was slightly higher with the filler, but virtually no difference in velocity variation. I agree that goes against conventional wisdom, but it is what I found with Unique in my guns (an 1874 Shiloh Sharps, a Uberti 1885 and a Browning 1886). By the way, all those test were using CCI 200 primers.

 

I also experimented with military surplus 4831. Kind of fun to use a powder almost as old as me!! Loads were such that the bullet just barely compressed the powder, that is, 100% load density. With such a slow powder, I would not want to reduce the loads. Accuracy, especially with mag. primers was very good, and, surprisingly to me, the load was relatively clean burning. However, velocities (and recoil) were more than I wanted for target work, but not enough for hunting.

 

TR

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dee Mak, there is no BEST. As you've read in the thread, there are enough different powders being used to fill a chocolate box. Your rifle will let you know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have had a fond relationship with the 45-70 Gov't for many years and generally load 300 grain bullets in it, although have also loaded 400 gr on occasions. I generally load moderately heavy loads in it. I have use Reloader 7 with good results a long time ago, but then move to other powders. Although I've used 3031 and found it OK, I have more experience with H322 in heavy loads and it works very well, it's a keeper. I also regularly use H4198 in a little lighter (moderately heavy loads) with very good results. I have a couple pounds of AA5744 on the shelf earmarked to try in the 45-70 but have not yet tried it. My Dad shoots much lighter 45-70 loads in his Rolling Block and has had good luck with Unique and 2400.

 

Of course always consult the reliable mfg. loading data. (courtesy of the American Trial Lawyers who are waiting to sue everybody's ass and line their pockets with our money if there's a screw up)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll sign-in on the side of Reloader 7 for loads using bullets under 420 grains in weight and Varget and H-4895 for bullets up to 500 grains, for bullets over 500 grains i Like Acurate Arms 4350 ...

 

I have a hunting load using 400 gr. Speer jacketed bullets that clocks just over 2,000 Fps. out of my Marlin 1895 SS with a 22 inch barrel ...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My Marlin Guide Gun is the most accurate with H4198 and Speer 400 grain jacketed flat points. I tried Varget and ended up with a lot of unburned grains in the action.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

H-4895 for bullets up to 500 grains

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

ditto

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are so many powders that work in the 45-70 that it is just very difficult to choose. I've had good success with 2495... as well as most of the others mentioned. For lite loads I like Reloader 7, and for really lite loads I like Unique. XMP5744 shoots well, but I found that fine tuning the load made a big difference in the accuracy using that powder. 3031 will put hair on you, as will a full load of Varget. If you are not real serious about it... and just want something to throw a chunk of lead at a short-med distance.... I would suggest Unique. It is NOT the most accurate, certainly not the fastest, but is pretty good and has a wide tolerance to loading variances.

 

I've always said that if I could only have "One" powder..... it would be Unique.

 

Snakebite

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a note. Don't try to downloade any of the slow burning powders. Use recommended charges.

 

 

+1

 

Snakebite

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have tried them all and 5744 works the best for me, but if you use the slow powders use a Lee Factory crimp Die it will help give you a complete burn V.D.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The good thing about Reloader 7 is it can be loaded with cast bullets in the grain range to velocities of 1,200 to 2,000 fps and have good to great accuracy and burn cleanly through-out that full range ....

 

I find that H-4895 does right fine at 1,400, but not so good between 1,460 and 1,680 Fps. but it starts to again improve from about 1,700 on up ....

 

Varget really starts to shine as the case fills above the 80% level of usible powder space .... One other addvantage is it is hard to over-load it for use in a Modern Marlin ..,

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I use 3031 or reloader 7. Works well in any barrel length -- I have 18 1/2, 22 and a pair of 26 inch barreled guns.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've tried various powders in the 45-70 ... Reloder 7; Varget; 4198; and 5744.

Of them, 5744 has given the best and most consistent results.

The others left all kinds of unburnt grains in the bore and with low end loads were unsatisfactory performers.

 

Although you didn't directly ask, Triple 7 works great if you want to foray into BP territory.

Hate to boot an old thread but it's a "Howdy" I'm Sportsdad and my confession is:

I started researching the reloading of .45-70 in the only rifle I own (Springfield Trapdoor, cartouche 1883) back in Oct of 2015. Thankfully, a lot of you are credited to my successful work ups as I've been reading old, new, paper and reloading books. I started reloading this particular load in March 2016 with 5744, same powder as Powder River Cartridge company uses for low pressure loads.

 

I can't agree more with the quoted individual regardin AA5744. Very little unburnt left, matter of fact in a Miliary match shoot recent where we scored on a CMP match sheet, I only had to swipe the breech once with a light brush after the match.

 

I'm now loading in 500 gr black powder rounds, but the 405 gr Missouri Bullet Co combined with AA5744 (albeit more expensive) is my most accurate round out to 200 yds in competiton with other old military rifles. (Okay, ALL Garands but I'm keeping up with them in this old trapdoor with the Buffington sight)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.