Lazarus Longshot, SASS #44254 Life Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 I was cruising through Graf & Sons' website, and ran across a listing for Alliant Black MZ black powder substitute. I'm not familiar with this sub. Has anyone shot it? I'd be interested in amount of smoke compared to real black and APP, what it takes for cleanup, metering through a Lee Pro Auto-disc powder measure, and the need for smokeless or BP lube on the bullets... Graf's copy says "Effective in all black powder firearms, Black MZ™ is a black powder replacement designed for hunters, Cowboy Action shooters and re-enactment enthusiasts. Moisture resistant and virtually non-corrosive," Virtually? I checked Alliant's site, and it says it is ok in cartridges. They claim the powder is less affected by heat and humidity than other subs. Nowhere that I could find is the amount of smoke compared to any other propellent.. Any comments? Laz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
German Jim Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 BTT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 I am awaiting response from Alliant on this product. They are closed until after New Years. They advertise that it is OK for Cowboy Action Shooting, ... and it may well be, but at this point in time we don't know that for a fact. I hope to resolve this asap. The last product that "Claimed" to be OK for Cowboy Action Shooting turned out to NOT be OK... it had Nitro in it, which made it totally outside of our rules of acceptance. I hope that it is indeed an acceptable product. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarus Longshot, SASS #44254 Life Posted December 29, 2011 Author Share Posted December 29, 2011 Snakebite, I had forgotten about the Blackhorn 209 powder thing. Yep, it would be good to know if the Alliant Black MZ powder is SASS legal! Laz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Laz, I asked the same thing several months ago and the thread had quite a few posts. I cannot get the search function to pull it up, just this one. Maybe you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 This is all I have seen on it so far. http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talk&action=display&thread=8918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 I went to the Alliant site to check the MSDS on it. Under ingredients it just says "Proprietary Formula". So whatever's in it is a big secret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I've tried repeatedly to contact Alliant Powder. They have not answered any of my emails or returned any of my calls. Their powder may very well be just fine, but at this point in time, it is NOT a SASS approved BP sub. I certainly hope to hear from them. Snakebite Chair ROC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarus Longshot, SASS #44254 Life Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 I sent them some questions throught their "ask the experts" online question form. He did answer one of my questions, but let the other ones go begging. Question: I see that Alliant has a black powder substitute now. I shoot SASS Frontier Cartridge and Plainsman (cap and ball) now with American Pioneer Powder, and I've got some questions about Alliant Black MZ. I'd be interested in the amount of smoke compared to real black and APP,what it takes for cleanup, metering through a Lee Pro Auto-disc powder measure, and the need for smokeless or BP lube on the bullets when used in cartridges. Answer: Black MZ (ffg granulation) is made to our specifications by AP, so the amount of smoke should be similar. Thanks for your note and have a nice day. Ben Amonette Technical Service Manager Alliant Powder Company From his answer, their appears to be only the one granulation: FFg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I assume that when they say made by "AP" they mean APP. At least there is another powder company competing in the BP arena. Hopefully, this will lead to lowering the price as some of the stuff is starting to get expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I assume that when they say made by "AP" they mean APP. At least there is another powder company competing in the BP arena. Hopefully, this will lead to lowering the price as some of the stuff is starting to get expensive. Agree! folks who don't do it all the time don't realize how expensive it can get shooting in the BP categories. This is double the fact if you live in an area where you are virtually forced to shoot BP Subs. Another source would be welcome. If it is indeed procuced for them by APP, it is most likely OK... but their dragging their feet seems strange. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Is ammo loaded with Black a problem to have in many states ???? Or is it just buying it in certain areas??? Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Is ammo loaded with Black a problem to have in many states ???? Or is it just buying it in certain areas??? Jabez Cowboy Loaded ammo is no problem. I'll give you an example of why BP is so hard to find in my area. The local country fire codes require that BP has to be stored in a powder magazine and that no more than one pound can be on display. Local gun stores don't have powder magazines and don't want to go through the expense to sell a few pounds of BP. As a consequence, they carry the subs but not the real McCoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rancho Roy Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Loaded ammo is no problem. I'll give you an example of why BP is so hard to find in my area. The local country fire codes require that BP has to be stored in a powder magazine and that no more than one pound can be on display. Local gun stores don't have powder magazines and don't want to go through the expense to sell a few pounds of BP. As a consequence, they carry the subs but not the real McCoy. Same situation here in Massachusetts. This is why i'd love to see the rules changed to allow Blackhorn 209 in "non" BP events......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Still no reply/response from Alliant about the Black MZ. I've ask SASS HQ to request info, and they have. Another legal BP sub would benefit all of us. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Snakebite, here's what Bill Knight - aka Dutch Bill, better known in the BP circles as The Mad Monk ... had to say about the Black MZ when were were discussing it in December on The Open Range: From the photos of the powder seen on Doug's board it sure looks like APP. The irregular grains tell me it is not a smokeless powder. Going back to 2005. GOEX had APP make a version of APP specifically for GOEX that was sold as Pinnacle Powder. Then GOEX was sold to Hodgdon. That ended the Pinnacle Powder venture. APP came out of the failure of Clean Shot after Hodgdon had sued Clean Shot for patent infringement on the Clean Shot pellets. So it looks as if Alliant may have gotten together with APP on this powder. If it is indeed APP all one would have to do is to drop some grains in water and see if they crumble and dissolve in the water. E. Ogre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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