Fordyce Beals Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 The .455 shootist Article on page 34 by Shootist Sass # 236 in December 2011 Cowboy Chronicle is short on “spirit of the game” On one hand he belittles the SASS legal .32 caliber (and the people who use it) then down loads the .45 Colt because of the “painful reality of shooting .45 LC (sic) with 250 grain bullet and a full charge of black powder.” He then makes specific loading recommendations that go against the manufactures product label warning. Who edits this junk? Fordyce who keeps fffg 777 in muzzle loaders not cartridges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 The .455 shootist Article on page 34 by Shootist Sass # 236 in December 2011 Cowboy Chronicle is short on “spirit of the game” On one hand he belittles the SASS legal .32 caliber (and the people who use it) then down loads the .45 Colt because of the “painful reality of shooting .45 LC (sic) with 250 grain bullet and a full charge of black powder.” He then makes specific loading recommendations that go against the manufactures product label warning. Who edits this junk? Fordyce who keeps fffg 777 in muzzle loaders not cartridges. In my limited experience, as long as the form and typing are decent, NOBODY edits "this junk". They're not running on a big budget..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oklahomabound Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Sgt. Jake McCandless #3368 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Been there done that,trimmed a scad of 45 colt cases to acp length.Till my fingers bled,the mouth of the case was after all that work too thick. Then I met this fellow who was going to put his money where his mouth was,actually his wife's new car money. Adirondack Jack was talking about doing this thing known as the Cowboy 45 Special, at a match at Circle K. He was going to have a major brass manufacture do a run of 45 acp length case with a 45 colt rim. I told him let me be your first customer ,Ill take a thousand too start and I have never looked back. Adios Sgt. Jake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Sgt. Jake McCandless #3368 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Double Tap ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Been there done that,trimmed a scad of 45 colt cases to acp length.Till my fingers bled,the mouth of the case was after all that work too thick. Then I met this fellow who was going to put his money where his mouth was,actually his wife's new car money. Adirondack Jack was talking about doing this thing known as the Cowboy 45 Special, at a match at Circle K. He was going to have a major brass manufacture do a run of 45 acp length case with a 45 colt rim. I told him let me be your first customer ,Ill take a thousand too start and I have never looked back. Adios Sgt. Jake Sgt. Jake, FWIW my long suffering wife finally got a (almost) new car. The Trading Post is making her payments. It only took 5 1/2 years of her running a couple of junkers, patiently waiting. _____________________________________________ Now I just read the CC article entitled ".455 Shootist", and have a SERIOUS bone to pick, and will be talking to Tex about it tomorrow. The author claims his .455 Shootist has a case length of .770, compared to .898 for ACP, and yet he claims you can use ACP smokeless data. This is OBVIOUSLY going to produce pressures well in excess of ACP loads, and might even be dangerous in Colts and Clones. NEVER USE DATA FOR ANOTHER CARTRIDGE THAT IS LONGER THAN THE ONE YOU ARE LOADING FOR! The reduction in case volume WILL increase pressures. Now why in the world he later goes on to say "make the case .898 for BP" is beyond me, except maybe to make it carry enough powder to make minimum smoke, and why he's hawking a method that WILL produce really evil to use brass tht is way too thick to run properly in a press using "normal" ACP or Webley dies is also a mystery, especially when properly made, professionally designed brass made by America's best brass maker is readily available, and doesn't require many hours of drudgery to make em. (Hint: See page 73 of the same CC issue.) Be careful out there. As Ole Elmer Keith would say, "Wandering beyond the published data is for the man who fully knows what he is about". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 I got 200 of the .45 cowboy specials when I started shooting FC/FCD to use in my OMV's. It could not be easier. 1/16" compression of APP XXX, XXX-gr SWC, WLP primers, .45C sizer, .45ACP expander and seat/crimp die. Go to the range and have fun. Same volume as my .38 specials. What kind of dies work for .45 brass at .77" length? I cannot imagine any sort of benefits over this brass that AJ provides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Sounds like a heck of a bunch of work to avoid buying 45 Auto Rim brass, but... Think there will be a market for 128 sided devices to stick on axels???? Perhaps 1280 sided will roll better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 After reading the first two paragraphs the author qualified himself as an IDIOT and I did not care to read the rest of the article. We are not shooting people in this sport, we are shooting at steel, maybe it needs explained to him in simple terms he can understand-but probably not. He may not like calibers that are SASS legal, but too bad, get over it. The 32-20 was a popular caliber in the old west because folks were not shooting people for the most part, they were shooting to feed themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Sounds like a heck of a bunch of work to avoid buying 45 Auto Rim brass, but... Think there will be a market for 128 sided devices to stick on axels???? Perhaps 1280 sided will roll better. Autorim brass doesn't work in .45 Colt guns unless ya cut the back of the cylinder about .030 to accommodate the thicker rim. This is a one way deal rendering Colt brass useless. Cowboy .45 Special (or this guy's homespun version) allows use of unmodified revolvers in .45 Colt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Autorim brass doesn't work in .45 Colt guns unless ya cut the back of the cylinder about .030 to accommodate the thicker rim. This is a one way deal rendering Colt brass useless. Cowboy .45 Special (or this guy's homespun version) allows use of unmodified revolvers in .45 Colt. Still sorta begs the question why. If shooting Smokeless Trailboss or other powders will let one safely shoot low velocity low recoil loads Fillers or wads can be used to take up space for BPs. I will grant shorter cases are easier to knock out of cylinders than longer but... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Still sorta begs the question why. If shooting Smokeless Trailboss or other powders will let one safely shoot low velocity low recoil loads Fillers or wads can be used to take up space for BPs. I will grant shorter cases are easier to knock out of cylinders than longer but... Bottom line is, with the shorter case, one can make the .45 shoot at any level of recoil desired for CAS, from wild to mild, "you breaking my targets?" to SASS minimum, and maintain accuracy/consistency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck Bisley Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Bottom line is, with the shorter case, one can make the .45 shoot at any level of recoil desired for CAS, from wild to mild, "you breaking my targets?" to SASS minimum, and maintain accuracy/consistency. I am not able to do so at this time; but once funds allow, I intend on getting myself a .45CS carrier and a boat load of brass and joining the .45CS followers Being a devout fan of the .45 caliber and reading all of the specs and data on AJ's creation, in my opinion it's the next best thing to sliced bread as it gets! Go AJ! My Hats off to ya! As for the article... haven't read it; but from others opinions it sounds like a good page to tear out and use in the outhouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 You know, after reading this thread over a coupla times, I find myself thinking the following about the .455 Shootist... "What's the point?" There really seems to be no purpose for it. If you want a short .45 Colt, you can use .45 Cowboy. Or, you can get a .45 ACP cylinder and shoot those and/or .45 Autorims. Seems to me like a lot of fuss for something that just isn't needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrelhouse Bob, SASS#22663 Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 The answer is ..... 32-20. No cutting no nothing, just load and shoot!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 You know, after reading this thread over a coupla times, I find myself thinking the following about the .455 Shootist... "What's the point?" There really seems to be no purpose for it. If you want a short .45 Colt, you can use .45 Cowboy. Or, you can get a .45 ACP cylinder and shoot those and/or .45 Autorims. Seems to me like a lot of fuss for something that just isn't needed. Yer kinda getting the point that gnaws on me. But like I was telling my pard Sgt. Jake last night, if the guy was trimming .357s to .38 spl., nobody would think a thing of it or care. But he's "making" "one half fast" Cowboy .45 Specials out of .45 Colt, and somebody at the CC thought he was a hero to give him that much ink. MAYBE it gnaws because I am the guy who actually did make the C45S round available to all, professionally made, (not for nothing, the first new straight-walled revolver round NOT intended to sell new guns to be introduced in 90 years), and in 6 years NOT ONE DROP of gun rag ink has been devoted to it except for a 400 word article I did for the CC 5 years ago. Spend the price of a good car and a pee pot load of work on an idea that MIGHT NOT FLY, and maybe you'll feel gnawed on when somebody is "making" (sorta) your product at home and doesn't even mention the "real deal" actually can be bought, and has been. (over 500,000 of em actually) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Yer kinda getting the point that gnaws on me. But like I was telling my pard Sgt. Jake last night, if the guy was trimming .357s to .38 spl., nobody would think a thing of it or care. But he's "making" "one half fast" Cowboy .45 Specials out of .45 Colt, and somebody at the CC thought he was a hero to give him that much ink. MAYBE it gnaws because I am the guy who actually did make the C45S round available to all, professionally made, (not for nothing, the first new straight-walled revolver round NOT intended to sell new guns to be introduced in 90 years), and in 6 years NOT ONE DROP of gun rag ink has been devoted to it except for a 400 word article I did for the CC 5 years ago. Spend the price of a good car and a pee pot load of work on an idea that MIGHT NOT FLY, and maybe you'll feel gnawed on when somebody is "making" (sorta) your product at home and doesn't even mention the "real deal" actually can be bought, and has been. (over 500,000 of em actually) Jack, for what it's worth, you are quite correct to feel gnawed upon. While I have personally never used .45 Cowboy Special, it seems clear to me how it could be something well liked for various reasons. And given the fact that I have seen the round being used at shoots all over New England, as well as at one State Match in Michigan, it is clearly very popular. I did not know that you were the creative force behind .45CS, sir, but let me at once give you kudos for creating it. And who knows, maybe someday I'll try it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 AJ, you got a right to feel 'knawed at'. I don't blame ya. For those of you who haven't tried the Cowboy .45 Special (C45S), it is a GREAT cartridge. AJ done a super job in getting this just right for the us to really enjoy shooting a big caliber at all kinds of various power levels.....BP or smokeless. I ain't read the CC article yet but I have tried the C45S and let me say, it is worthy of the praise it gets. And AJ deserves a SALUTE for the time and efforts he put into its creation. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I think this article is a old one. Maybe a reprint or one that never got ran. To my knowledge (as in I could be wrong) Shootist no longer competes in SASS/CAS. Some of the stuff he talks about reminds of some of the stuff talked about a few years ago, for example .32's being widely popular. They have not taken over the sport as some feared earlier on. Most mainstream SASS'ers know that and most also know about the .45 cowboy special. My guess is the editor felt it would be good fodder and possibly a bit inflamatory, which we all know wouldn't be the first time he did that. Either way someone who belittles any man who would shoot .32's then load a 160gr. bullet in a .45 colt is a hypocrite. Ignore it,add a good monthy match with your pards and enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I think this article is a old one. Maybe a reprint or one that never got ran. To my knowledge (as in I could be wrong) Shootist no longer competes in SASS/CAS. Some of the stuff he talks about reminds of some of the stuff talked about a few years ago, for example .32's being widely popular. They have not taken over the sport as some feared earlier on. Most mainstream SASS'ers know that and most also know about the .45 cowboy special. My guess is the editor felt it would be good fodder and possibly a bit inflamatory, which we all know wouldn't be the first time he did that. Either way someone who belittles any man who would shoot .32's then load a 160gr. bullet in a .45 colt is a hypocrite. Ignore it,add a good monthy match with your pards and enjoy. Deuce ole pard, 160s are my rifle load, and then only because the 130 barnstormer is finicky feeding in the rifle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Yup I know that Jack, didnt say there was anything wrong with it. Guess you missed my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frio Kid, SASS #31915 Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Yeah, I started reading it this morning and couldnt get through it. It is amazing the chronicle allows articles that belittle and insult a huge portion if not a majority if its readers. The author of this inane drivel obviously has serious issues with his own masculinity. As far as .32 auto not being a carry gun, I have a number of carry guns, choosing the appropriate one for different circumstances. If he thinks it would be a good idea to bull rush someone as they unload a full clip of .32 auto in his direction - he IS as stupid as his article would suggest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655 Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Pretty obvious the original author has not spent much time in europe, or even buying cast off european pistols. For years the official french pistol was a .32 long, (kinda a .30 carbine short). Many European police forces used to cary 32 ACP but called them 7.65 Years ago bought my wife a nice wather pp .32 that began life as a German Police pistol for $150 including swivel holster. Even James Bond has a .32 PPK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 I think it's pretty obvious from this and former articles that Tex feels the same as the author of this article. But you wouldn't know it from his editorial in this Chronicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Sgt. Jake McCandless #3368 Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 My take is that SASS doesn't want the liability issue involving data here on the wire. Then they publish a article in the CC where the author suggests cutting down a case .125 shorter than ACP,AR .Then the author tells one to load said case with data for 45 acp,AR data. I guess because it's in the Chronicle their is not the same liability involved. Adios Sgt. Jake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 I'm glad to see this thread. I read that article in the outhouse this morning, and though I'm not at all knowledgeable on the subject, I felt like that is where it belonged, in the outhouse. I see now I was correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 C45S is what I am going to be loading with BP when wifey starts shooting....plus AJ makes a carrier that will drop into my Uberti Henry so I can get a feel of what the Henry REALLY felt like in the 1860's. GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockridge,SASS #8763 Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Well I'm glad I'm not alone on this, that article infuriated me and I'm still hotter than hell about it. It's the biggest crock of Bovine Fecal Matter I've seen in the Chronicle in years. Arrogant, hypocritical, pontificating, insulting, derogatory crap of the highest order. I wanted to find a rope. I'd like to launch one of my full-case of 777 32-20 loads at this arrogant wind bag and see how he feels about .32's. Then the arrogant S...... has the audacity to discuss his gamer cut down .45 whizbang game the rules load and how great it is. What a PRInce. I want a piece of this clown's hide. I'm a devoted fan of the 32-20, it's the only original cowboy era load that you actually have to be concerned about being over the SASS velocity limit. It's an original black powder cartridge, chambered in original guns, not some gamey late comer trying to skirt the rules. I'm also a fan and shooter of the 38WCF, 44WCF, and 45-70 Gov't,, none of them being wimpy or non-period correct. This Guys a Complete FRAUD Git A Rope Rockridge 8763 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddnews SASS# 24779 Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I know there are some of you who think I just log on to throw rocks at SASS, but I want to say I agree with the majority consensus here. I didn't get around to reading the Chronicle until last night. Where the article isn't out of line in its critique of other shooters, it is sketchy and possibly dangerous when it comes to reloading methods. I'm planning a gradual shift over to Frontier Cartridge as I acquire more equipment to make it possible, and I'm going to want a "short .45" to match the ballistics of the cartridges used in 1860 Cartridge Conversions back in the day. When I do that, I'll almost undoubtedly be buying a few hundred rounds of C45S, for which there is already well developed data (and which means I wouldn't have to spend hour after hour trimming and chamfering .45 brass). Sometimes I think the Chronicle needs a better review process for its articles (in my very humble opinion). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Oddnews, I for one think you will really love the C45S cartridge. AJ has already done some homework on different powders and bullet weights and has alot to share to help you out. Best regards ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Well....just ordered me 100/pcs of the C45S brass online! Now I'll need to figure out how to load'em Can't wait to try 'em out with BP GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddnews SASS# 24779 Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Oddnews, I for one think you will really love the C45S cartridge. AJ has already done some homework on different powders and bullet weights and has alot to share to help you out. Best regards ..........Widder Widder -- at the risk of hijacking the thread, when I bought these conversion cylinders about eight years ago, the plan was I'd buy a bunch of Scholfield (.45 S&W) brass, and the "short brass" would be used for FC, the long for smokeless -- and the plan was to buy a Taylor's Spencer in .45 to go with the 1860s. Life intervened asnd as everyone here knows I didn't shoot for a long time. Of course, the C45S did't exist then. The plan is still fundamentally the same, but I think the C45S makes more sense in this context -- the issues now being that I need money for some gear I want for loading BP shotshells, and I need even MORE money for the Spencer (and then a small amount more for C45S brass). I also don't know how well the C45S will function in the Spencer -- a subject for future experimentation. I just turned 49 -- hopefully I'll get all this done by say, age 51. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulp, SASS#28319 Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Let's see if I understand this. If you shoot .32's you're a wimp. If you cut down a .45 hull and use a lighter bullet, so it recoils like a .32, you're a real man? Yeah, that makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Dan Dawkins Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Just got my chronicle. .455 Shootist article is one of the more retarded illogical articles I have ever read in this publication. Guys a real blow-hard if ya ask me. I am not offended by his remarks towards 32 shooters. Big deal. Like a Ford vs Chevy debate. Article started out trumpeting all things manly, like recoil and power. I can dig that. And I dig folks that go for that sort of thing. But the article quickly, and I mean quickly, deteriorated. All he did was propose swapping one - 1cc load for another to achieve the same result and call it superior. Moron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Boddems Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Just got my chronicle. .455 Shootist article is one of the more retarded illogical articles I have ever read in this publication. Guys a real blow-hard if ya ask me. I am not offended by his remarks towards 32 shooters. Big deal. Like a Ford vs Chevy debate. Article started out trumpeting all things manly, like recoil and power. I can dig that. And I dig folks that go for that sort of thing. But the article quickly, and I mean quickly, deteriorated. All he did was propose swapping one - 1cc load for another to achieve the same result and call it superior. Moron i too could not agree more with the responce but on a practical note as much work as it is and as much time is consumed why would anyone consider cutting down brass when AJ has the brass in stock ready to go no hassle and will help you with any reloading hitch you have. he is also one of the good guys to boot and has large knowlage base ---------dusty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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