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Jacknife

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seems that if someone handed you a shotgun at the ul table so you can finish clean they would have to do 1 of 2 things.

1-be swept by gun as the cowpoke behind them hands it to them -----or

2-break the 170 rule as they take gun from helpful cowpoke..

just my take on this one.

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Can't see how this could be ok, when your not even allowed to hand them ammo, that they could put in there own belt, then put in their own guns. Lets forget its a shotgun. Shooter comes to the line starts with the rifle at table rite next to the load table. Rifle locks up on second shot shooter declares malfunction makes it safe, shooter next to him says here grab my rifle its loaded and ok'ed by the LTO. one step each way and he has a new rifle. Don't think so..

BT

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Seems to me like illegal acquired ammos!

The used shotgun was not brought on the line by the shooter.

But for sure, no clear rule about this situation!

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Hi,

 

I've been thinking about this some more.

 

I think the following rule would apply, "Failure to stage guns or ammunition at the designated position(s) or location(s) is the fault of the competitor and scored as a procedural unless the competitor is able to correct the situation, unassisted, while in the process of completing the stage under time. The penalty for using "illegally acquired" ammunition (i.e. NOT carried to the line/staged by the shooter in an approved manner) will be a PROCEDURAL. Any targets hit using that ammo will be scored as MISSES. NO adjustments will be made to the stage raw time."

 

My case and others of leaving guns on the LT are covered by "correct the situation, unassisted..."

 

In this case, the shooter was assisted, assess a procedural. As the gun was illegally acquired (assisted), assess misses for each hit with the illegally acquired gun.

 

I would recommend changing the two next to last lines as follows, "The penalty for using "illegally acquired" ammunition or guns (i.e. NOT carried to the line/staged by the shooter in an approved manner) will be a PROCEDURAL. Any targets hit using that ammo or gun will be scored as MISSES."

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Allie, I understand your logic, but I feel like handing off a gun is deserving of more of a penalty than handing off ammo. But it is also something that most ROs would be quick to stop and not allow to happen just as they are with handing off ammo.

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+1 with you Allie Mo dear,

it is exactly what I think for this issue.

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Must be a difficult question, as RO Committee has not yet spoken. It does bring several related issues to light. Example: can shooter go to his gun cart in middle of stage to get another gun,or just get a gun he forgot, assuming he has either shot his pistols or lays them down on a prop?

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Probably they're working on the new edition of handbooks!

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Must be a difficult question, as RO Committee has not yet spoken.

...

Maybe they have a congressional hearing scheduled for a later date. :lol:

Probably they're working on the new edition of handbooks!

Whenever an accountant finds a loophole, the IRS gets to work on closing the loophole. I suspect this loophole is about to be closed.

 

...and maybe "we" just ain't been in the mood to play "stump the RO". <_<

 

IMO (this has NOT gone to the ROC for discussion/resolution...yet)

 

The current rule that best covers the OP is the one that AM cites in post #74.

KEY WORD is "UNASSISTED".

 

The OP scenario would get the shooter a PROCEDURAL (at the very least) as the firearm replacement was NOT "unassisted".

 

SAFE retrieval of ammo (and/or primary firearms for stage use) IS covered under the cited rule...

 

BTDT. :blush:

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...and maybe "we" just ain't been in the mood to play "stump the RO". <_<

 

IMO (this has NOT gone to the ROC for discussion/resolution...yet)

 

The current rule that best covers the OP is the one that AM cites in post #74.

KEY WORD is "UNASSISTED".

 

The OP scenario would get the shooter a PROCEDURAL (at the very least) as the firearm replacement was NOT "unassisted".

 

SAFE retrieval of ammo (and/or primary firearms for stage use) IS covered under the cited rule...

 

BTDT. :blush:

Taa Daaaa!! :)

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...and maybe "we" just ain't been in the mood to play "stump the RO". <_<

 

IMO (this has NOT gone to the ROC for discussion/resolution...yet)

 

The current rule that best covers the OP is the one that AM cites in post #74.

KEY WORD is "UNASSISTED".

 

The OP scenario would get the shooter a PROCEDURAL (at the very least) as the firearm replacement was NOT "unassisted".

 

SAFE retrieval of ammo (and/or primary firearms for stage use) IS covered under the cited rule...

 

BTDT. :blush:

So if shooter says no thanks to the unloading table offer and runs to his cart to grab a backup shotgun (on the clock), what is the call-of course doing the right thing with his revolvers first?

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So if shooter says no thanks to the unloading table offer and runs to his cart to grab a backup shotgun (on the clock), what is the call-of course doing the right thing with his revolvers first?

 

...

(this has NOT gone to the ROC for discussion/resolution...yet)

...

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I like the way PWB says, ----YET. Oh, and thanks for taking time out to clarify the situation.

 

Ya know, I was sitting around the other day and the idea hit me about the scenario presented here. I like all the ideas that were thought out about whether it was right or wrong. Shows how strong a person feels about his ideas as to how the rules are interpreted.

 

Some that were in favor of no penalty would have probably taken the idea that they were right to the bank. Knowing that they could borrow money on it, no way they could be wrong!!!

 

LIkewise for the ones that thought there should be a penalty, no give and take at all. Penalty period, no way around it!!! When you are right you are right, never give an inch.

 

There wasn't many at all that said, "wellllll, lets see here, maybe he , uhhh. maybe it'll be ok. Naw, he dun wrong I think, or maybe just a little bit off. LET'S LET IT RIDE THIS TIME. So lets give him the benefit of the doubt."

 

Seems that Widder was the first one that came up with the wording that PWB says concerns this situation and I couldn't even get him to change his mind, which is good. Either right or wrong, stand up for what ya think the rules say.

 

Dunno about ya'll, but I learned from the post, thanks for participating.

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So if shooter says no thanks to the unloading table offer and runs to his cart to grab a backup shotgun (on the clock), what is the call-of course doing the right thing with his revolvers first?

 

 

He needs to make sure to make a pass by the loading table too. :huh: Then make sure that the gun gets staged properly...

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The stage instructions would have to say something indicating multiple shotguns could be used. Such as 4+ Shotgun(s) in the ammo count. Or, stage Shotgun(s)... I've never seen anything other than Shotgun, singular. However, it could be done and there would have to be an affirmative indication that multiple SGs could be used. Not merely the lack of a statement to the contrary.

 

Get a grip this discussion is verging on ridiculous with this nitpicking! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

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He needs to make sure to make a pass by the loading table too. :huh: Then make sure that the gun gets staged properly...

Since a shotgun is not loaded at the loading table why does it have to go on the loading table first? A lot of clubs have racks for long guns next to the loading table and many times the shotgun never sees the loading table, as the shooter just picks up the shotgun and carries it to the line from the rack. This is particularly true of locations with very small or limited space loading tables.

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how about ROI page 10 loading/unloading 9/f. only 2 main match revolvers may be taken to the line?

surely several of you will argue the obvious "that says revolvers!" but isnt the intent clear enough? once upon a time we had a very small rule book that fit in your vest pocket. seems to me the the same people that are always hollering about too many rules, are often the people looking for a way around the existing ones. IMHO "loophole" is covered by spirit of the game.

CC

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Since a shotgun is not loaded at the loading table why does it have to go on the loading table first? A lot of clubs have racks for long guns next to the loading table and many times the shotgun never sees the loading table, as the shooter just picks up the shotgun and carries it to the line from the rack. This is particularly true of locations with very small or limited space loading tables.

I'm wondering how you got through as long as you have with that kind of a "why do I have to obey simple loading procedures" attitude, GCK. Get a grip, man. :rolleyes:

 

Shooter shows all guns at both ends of the shooting stage. XXX is so difficult about that concept to you? :wacko:

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It's a *&^$ shame that the ROC would even have a need to look at this. :(

 

No kidding...

 

I've finally come to the conclusion that some folks just have no life.

 

Phantom

 

PS: Anvil - yer new bullits are real nice!!!!!

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Shooter on the last stage (shooting clean at this point) shoots his revolvers clean, grabs rifle and blast 10 hits with it. Picks up shotgun and shoves two shells in and pulls the trigger and nothing happens. "Gun broke dang it," shooter utters out loud. SHooter just clearing the unloading table notices the confusion and hears shooter fussing bout his gun. To keep the cleanmatch going, shooter at unloading table hands shooter the shotgun to finish the stage clean.

 

What say ye wire lawyers???????

 

Monthly shoot = I didn't see anything, looks like a clean match to me. Good job pard.

 

 

 

Wow, hot topic. Didn't realize it but should have figured w/ 3 pages of responses. Next time I'll look at the prior posts b/f I respond straight from the op's post. Oh well....

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I'm wondering how you got through as long as you have with that kind of a "why do I have to obey simple loading procedures" attitude, GCK. Get a grip, man. :rolleyes:

 

Shooter shows all guns at both ends of the shooting stage. XXX is so difficult about that concept to you? :wacko:

 

Beens shooting SASS for years and have NEVER had to show empty guns at the loading table. Only thing required to show at loading table is weither there's a round under the hammer of the revovlver and that the hammer is fully down on the rifle. ROI and SASS Handbood state what's required. Don't read anything into them, they are what they are.

Been known to walk away from a match that don't follow SASS Guidelines. Not worth the hassle of not knowing what the "club rules" are at any given situation.

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Beens shooting SASS for years and have NEVER had to show empty guns at the loading table. Only thing required to show at loading table is weither there's a round under the hammer of the revovlver and that the hammer is fully down on the rifle. ROI and SASS Handbood state what's required. Don't read anything into them, they are what they are.

Been known to walk away from a match that don't follow SASS Guidelines. Not worth the hassle of not knowing what the "club rules" are at any given situation.

:wacko: :wacko: one can only wonder why the rules specifically award a SDQ for showing up at the loading table with empties in the gun? But, you'll show 'em and walk off, right? Good riddance. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

May I suggest an ROI or ROII course or in the very least perhaps actually a read of the rules? ;)

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Back in July, I started a Thread on "Loading Table Officer duties".

 

its still active on the Wire. For those who are curious, do a search for it to read all the post (4 pages).

 

 

..........Widder

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:wacko: :wacko: one can only wonder why the rules specifically award a SDQ for showing up at the loading table with empties in the gun? But, you'll show 'em and walk off, right? Good riddance. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

May I suggest an ROI or ROII course or in the very least perhaps actually a read of the rules? ;)

I guess I would take the word of an RO II instructor on the matter, such as Flying W Ramrod whom you berate in your post. I suggest he has a good grasp of the rules and has read them. I can not find anywhere in the rules requiring a shooter to show clear at the loading table. Can you? A whole lot of states don't have any loading table oversight except the shooter. There is no data to show safety has been compromised due to this situation. If a shooter finds an empty in a pistol or rifle after showing clear at the unloading table it would be up to him to report it. If the first stage of the day, it is a no call.

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This will be interesting..

 

It is illegal to accept shotgun shells, but you can accept a shotgun???

 

We'll see. I just hope this doesn't add a few more pages of rules!!:o

good statement i agree a P and e sperit of the game. allowing this the next thing shooters will be carrying two extra long guns to the table (??????).

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:wacko: :wacko: one can only wonder why the rules specifically award a SDQ for showing up at the loading table with empties in the gun? But, you'll show 'em and walk off, right? Good riddance. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

May I suggest an ROI or ROII course or in the very least perhaps actually a read of the rules? ;)

 

 

Your Highness, may I ask you to quote the rule that states that a shooter is REQUIRED to show their EMPTY guns at the loading table? :D:D

 

Edited to say what I meant to say, sorry for the error.

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Your Highness, may I ask you to quote the rule that states that a shooter is REQUIRED to show their EMPTY guns at the unloading table? :D:D

 

RO1, page 10, item F.

 

F) At the Unloading Table, competitors shall unload each of their firearms, and the Unloading Officer must visually inspect all chambers to make sure they are empty. Rifles and shotguns are cycled to verify their magazines are empty. All revolvers taken to the firing line must be checked, whether or not they were used, and only two

main match revolvers may be taken to the line.

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I guess I would take the word of an RO II instructor on the matter, such as Flying W Ramrod whom you berate in your post. I suggest he has a good grasp of the rules and has read them. I can not find anywhere in the rules requiring a shooter to show clear at the loading table. Can you? A whole lot of states don't have any loading table oversight except the shooter. There is no data to show safety has been compromised due to this situation. If a shooter finds an empty in a pistol or rifle after showing clear at the unloading table it would be up to him to report it. If the first stage of the day, it is a no call.

And a BLACK BADGE INSTRUCTOR nonetheless! WOW! :lol:

RO1, page 10, item F.

 

F) At the Unloading Table, competitors shall unload each of their firearms, and the Unloading Officer must visually inspect all chambers to make sure they are empty. Rifles and shotguns are cycled to verify their magazines are empty. All revolvers taken to the firing line must be checked, whether or not they were used, and only two

main match revolvers may be taken to the line.

:wacko: Maybe it's time for a full review? I'm thinkin' no more classes until you get this down. Need a reader? :ph34r:

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Hello,

 

I think Brother King was referring to the following rule, which can be found on page 21 of the ROI. "Competitors arriving at the designated loading area with uncleared firearms after completing a stage within the same day will be assessed a Stage Disqualification penalty on the previously completed stage."

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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