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What Would Ya Call


Jacknife

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Shooter on the last stage (shooting clean at this point) shoots his revolvers clean, grabs rifle and blast 10 hits with it. Picks up shotgun and shoves two shells in and pulls the trigger and nothing happens. "Gun broke dang it," shooter utters out loud. SHooter just clearing the unloading table notices the confusion and hears shooter fussing bout his gun. To keep the cleanmatch going, shooter at unloading table hands shooter the shotgun to finish the stage clean.

 

What say ye wire lawyers???????

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No alibi match? State or above? local monthly? Full posse (18-20?) Shooter from the unloading table interrupts the shooter to hand him an unloaded gun? Just how would that work? Guns all clear? We gonna have a discussion about it at the firing line?

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If ya can't hand off ammo to a shooter on the line, I reckon that goes for guns as well. If I was the TO I would not allow it. If shooter wants to take it to the match director that's fine by me.

 

We're in this to have fun, folks running up to the line to pass off guns isn't safe, nor is it fair to the feller who has the same thing happen but doesn't have someone hand him a gun.

 

Had it happen to me at a regional, though I wasn't clean, but dang close, went to close my shotgun and it fell apart. Took four misses, and moved on. Such is life, next shooter.

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No alibi match? State or above? local monthly? Full posse (18-20?) Shooter from the unloading table interrupts the shooter to hand him an unloaded gun? Just how would that work? Guns all clear? We gonna have a discussion about it at the firing line?

 

 

Shouldn't matter what kind of match it is should it? The rules are to be enforced equally at all matches.

 

Would work easily, he just turns around from the unloading table with his shotgun that he was getting ready to carry to his cart and hands it to the shooter that is having trouble with his shotgun. Shooter takes it and finished the stage with it, for a clean match.

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If ya can't hand off ammo to a shooter on the line, I reckon that goes for guns as well. If I was the TO I would not allow it. If shooter wants to take it to the match director that's fine by me.

 

Grizzly Dave, what rule would you quote to the shooter as your reason for not allowing it?

 

And, YOU ARE the match director.

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Clean.

 

Shooter could have just as easily grounded their pistols and ran back to their own gun cart - grabbed their open and empty backup - ran back to the line, holstered their pistols (have to do that because of stage conventions) and finished the stage.

 

Once the 1st round goes downrange, the shooter is to complete the stage to the best of their ability.

The rules cover AMMO not carried to the line in an approved manner.

 

They do not cover borrowing another/ or retrieving another firearm in the middle of a stage.

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If you want a rule for every hair brained thing you can think of, yer gonna have a real big book.

 

If you want me to call something I can name a rule for, fine, I can do that, SDQ for not following loading / unloading procedures, the shotgun was not checked at the loading table, nor did that shooter clear that shotgun at the unloading table.

 

As i said, I'd not allow it, if the MD wants to overrule me, that's fine, no MD I know of would.

 

Creeker, as MD, you really want shooters running with guns away from the firing line?

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I think at a local monthly match where there's no BIG award to be handed out....who cares as long as it's done safely.Clean matches are hard to come by.So if the shooter leaving the ULT with a checked and empty firearm is willing to loan it to a fellow shooter to insure his/her clean shoot that's showing sprirt of the game and sportsmanship.But I've been called an idiot more than once for having a different outlook at what we do.Besides,it said the shooter clearing the ULT.That to me means his shotgun was checked and cleared to be empty.

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I'm with Griz on this. Any firearm acquired from off the firing line during the stage did not go thru the loading table for safety and was not staged per the stage instructions - a P at the best.

 

With all the ultra safety rules we have this seems pretty obvious to me. SDQ, and let him appeal. Can't imagine an overturn by MD, but ya never know.

However, I await the ruling of the RO committee from PWB, if they've seen it yet - probably in discussion.

 

Harvey :)

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Harvey, just for the sake of conversation, does the loading table officer check the chamber and magazine of your shotgun at the loading table before letting you proceed to stage your guns? Just a thought.

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At clubs around here, yes they do. Even for clubs that don't do that at the loading table, they do check it at the unloading table, hence my edit in the post above, that shooter did not show that shotgun clear at the unloading table.

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that shooter did not show that shotgun clear at the unloading table.

 

So, are ya saying that the gun weren't cleared at the PREVIOUS stage unloading table as being safe? If so, ya don't have to use the same shooters thru a whole match do ya? Can't ya use different guns from your cart, and if so, do ya have to have em cleared at the unloading table of the previous stage before using em?

 

Or am I misunnerstanding what ya are saying?

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That's why we clear every gun to be used on a stage at the loading table. I understand some clubs don't stating that the gun was cleared at the unloading table of the prior stage, I don't agree with that logic, but that's what I've heard said. But even so, as I said very specifically, that shooter never cleared that shotgun, not at any stage.

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Harvey, just for the sake of conversation, does the loading table officer check the chamber and magazine of your shotgun at the loading table before letting you proceed to stage your guns? Just a thought.

 

 

Good question.

 

At the monthlies I shoot the LTO is usually the shooter in front or behind you. I/they look to see action open, as does the RO when you are staging your guns, but you are right about the mags on '97s or '87s - they are not always specifically checked. Same with the regional I shot recently, IIRC. Of course, if loaded, they would be caught at the line during SG string, with the attendant penalty.

 

My point was more that a firearm not run thru the LT and not properly staged is a compete "unknown", and you can't "assume it unloaded and safe", much less encourage posse members to run thru the pack anytime a shooter has a malfunction on any gun! And if that's OK, what if this were the first stage of the day?

 

If this were only a P, then we would have folks trying to help their pards almost anytime it happened - not something conducive to safety. :excl: Heck, we'd probably end up with backup guns being held by pards behind the firing line. Seems like a giant can o'safety worms, especially for the RO. How the heck is he supposed to know it's been cleared thru the ULT?

 

I think this is a great "what if", and as a new ROII (went thru at the convention) I will be very interested when PWB posts.

 

Harvey

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What SASS rule do you sight to require guns to be cleared at the loading table before loading?

 

 

There's not a rule just something that is done in Colorado and some other States.

 

KK

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That's why we clear every gun to be used on a stage at the loading table. I understand some clubs don't stating that the gun was cleared at the unloading table of the prior stage, I don't agree with that logic, but that's what I've heard said. But even so, as I said very specifically, that shooter never cleared that shotgun, not at any stage.

While this might be a nice thing to do, it is not required under the rules. The "Loading and Unloading Table Proceedures" are spelled out in the rule book

 

RO I 9. Loading/Unloading Table Officers

A) Loading Table Officers are responsible to visually check to ensure all firearms are

loaded with only the correct number of rounds required in a course of fire. They

count, along with the shooter, rounds being loaded into rifles and revolvers.

B) They check to make sure no round is ever under the firing pin of any firearm and that

all loaded firearm hammers are fully down on empty chambers. While at the Loading

Table, shooters must be allowed to make corrections as necessary to be sure no round

is under the firing pin and hammers are fully down on empty chambers without the

assessment of a penalty.

 

F) At the Unloading Table, competitors shall unload each of their firearms, and the

Unloading Officer must visually inspect all chambers to make sure they are empty.

Rifles and shotguns are cycled to verify their magazines are emptytaken to the firing

line must be checked, whether or not they were used, and only two

main match revolvers may be taken to the line.

 

No where does it say the Loading Table Officer is to check to see if the gun is empty.

 

I've seen world champions ground their revolvers and run back to their cart during the middle of a stage, to pick up their shotgun they forgot. Funny but legal.

Don't add rules into an already large rule book.

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I can not understand a club rule requiring a gun to be checked before it is loaded. Can someone explain the added safety this provides? If it really added a measure of safety don't you think it would be in the SASS rules to do so?

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If ya can't hand off ammo to a shooter on the line, I reckon that goes for guns as well. If I was the TO I would not allow it. If shooter wants to take it to the match director that's fine by me.

 

We're in this to have fun, folks running up to the line to pass off guns isn't safe, nor is it fair to the feller who has the same thing happen but doesn't have someone hand him a gun.

 

Had it happen to me at a regional, though I wasn't clean, but dang close, went to close my shotgun and it fell apart. Took four misses, and moved on. Such is life, next shooter.

Unless you can quote a rule stating that borrowing a gun in the middle of the action is illegal, it is unusual but would seem legal. I once saw a shooter run to his cart to grab his shotgun on the clock because he forgot to stage it. He had already fired his pistols. In that case both shooter and RO were pretty embarrassed. He had gotten in habit of leaving his cart next to the loading table and leaving the shotgun in the cart until called to the line. This match even had a loading table officer.

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Staging instructions for any stage cover how guns to be used will be staged. Ya can't "stage" a shotgun in yer buddy's hands conveniently for him to hand it to ya. If the "pipe and stick" you thought was a shotgun, and staged properly, fails to operate, I guess you should have staged one that will.

 

"No competitive advantage" is baloney. You sure would gain advantage over the shooter who was clean and leading until his gun broke and he was the first shooter, so nobody had a cleared gun at the ULT, or maybe has no "friends" wanting to see him do well, and fellow pards are competing against him....

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Unless you can quote a rule stating that borrowing a gun in the middle of the action is illegal, it is unusual but would seem legal. I once saw a shooter run to his cart to grab his shotgun on the clock because he forgot to stage it. He had already fired his pistols. In that case both shooter and RO were pretty embarrassed. He had gotten in habit of leaving his cart next to the loading table and leaving the shotgun in the cart until called to the line. This match even had a loading table officer.

 

We ought not allow that either. The clear intent of the convention of staging guns is to prevent shooters running all over the area behind the line while on the clock. Ya take yer stuff with ya to the line and hope it works. If not, boo hoo.

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We ought not allow that either.

 

 

Would it be correct to say that the only things that aren't allowed, are things that there are rules AGAINST?

 

Or am I missing something here? If a person doesn't like something, lets not allow it for anyone, correct?

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No Jacknife, that isn't the point. We have stage conventions, stage instructions, loading procedures and unloading procedures that are all accepted as safety measures. This isn't you and a couple of ol' buddies passing off guns.

 

Every other shooter gets penalized and that's why I asked the questions in the 2nd post. The guns are to be staged in a manner that is concurrent with shooting the proscribed procedure. The guns are to be checked at the LT. Whether there is a LTO or not. You open the S/G and show it clear- even if that's only to yourself.

 

At the line a shooter keeps all guns downrange. Empties all guns and then proceeds to the unloading table. Your buddy may have great intentions, but so would 15 other shooters who all bring buddies. We aren't passing guns back and forth in a "try this".

 

Hey, no one wants to see a clean match go bad, but we aren't passing ammo, making up squibs, jams, or doing gun mechanic-ing on the firing line either.

 

Most matches are NO ALIBI. Once a round is downrange- if you left your s/g on your cart- well, it didn't get staged and that responsibility is ulitmately up to the shooter.

 

4 misses.... next shooter.

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Mysef, and I've ben wrong wunce ur twice,,, I wud say no call IF the shooter wasn't handed the firearm....seeing how he dint correct it unassisted then I wud say a P (?), had he done it unassisted then I figure he dun gud,,,,BUT, lak Ize sed b4, Ivva bin wrong b4.

 

 

Happy Trails on a Good Life

 

Cheyenne :lol:

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Shooter on the last stage (shooting clean at this point) shoots his revolvers clean, grabs rifle and blast 10 hits with it. Picks up shotgun and shoves two shells in and pulls the trigger and nothing happens. "Gun broke dang it," shooter utters out loud. S(h)ooter just clearing the unloading table notices the confusion and hears shooter fussing bout his gun. To keep the cleanmatch going, shooter at unloading table hands shooter the shotgun to finish the stage clean.

What say ye wire lawyers???????

Clean, no harm, no foul. (As long as the hand-off was done safely, barrels pointed downrange, etc).

Shouldn't matter what kind of match it is should it? The rules are to be enforced equally at all matches.

Would work easily, he just turns around from the unloading table with his shotgun that he was getting ready to carry to his cart and hands it to the shooter that is having trouble with his shotgun. Shooter takes it and finished the stage with it, for a clean match.

Aye. Same with a rifle or pistola... once a shooter has been cleared from the unloading table, it is a fait accompli that their guns are empty.

 

Or your unloading table officer ain't doin' his job.

Clean.

Shooter could have just as easily grounded their pistols and ran back to their own gun cart - grabbed their open and empty backup - ran back to the line, holstered their pistols (have to do that because of stage conventions) and finished the stage.

Once the 1st round goes downrange, the shooter is to complete the stage to the best of their ability.

The rules cover AMMO not carried to the line in an approved manner.

They do not cover borrowing another/ or retrieving another firearm in the middle of a stage.

Ditto.

No call

Shooter did not gain an advantage by using a loaner

Ditto again.

Staging instructions for any stage cover how guns to be used will be staged. Ya can't "stage" a shotgun in yer buddy's hands conveniently for him to hand it to ya. If the "pipe and stick" you thought was a shotgun, and staged properly, fails to operate, I guess you should have staged one that will.

"No competitive advantage" is baloney. You sure would gain advantage over the shooter who was clean and leading until his gun broke and he was the first shooter, so nobody had a cleared gun at the ULT, or maybe has no "friends" wanting to see him do well, and fellow pards are competing against him....

Brother Jack... Brother Jack,

 

If the shooter's shotgun was staged at the beginning of the stage in accordance with the stage instructions, does that not meet both the letter and intent of the rules? Just as if the shooter took the time to remove his shotshells from his approved device for carrying them to the line and staged them on the table in front of him, and reloaded from there... it meets both the letter and intent of the rules.

 

As fer "competitive advantage"... well... as a famous general once said, "once the battle is engaged, it's only a crapshoot whether the battle plan can be followed..." Well, ok, so I paraphrased it a bit! :rolleyes: Remember RO Attitude Rule #4?

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Most stage instructions say. Pistols-- as in more than one.

Rifle. As in ONE. Not Rifles.

Shotgun. As in ONE. Not Shotguns.

 

And where they are to be staged. Not Shotguns staged one here and grab another there.

 

 

Lets use some common sence and not have to make a rule for everything. Ya know that is not

what you are to do.

So Cowboy UP. Take your misses and be a man about it.

 

Don't try and lawyer your way out of it.

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We bring our guns to the line in an organized, (scripted, really) manner that OOZES safety. Every inch of our SASS rules exudes careful gun handling. The ONLY place we are allowed to run with guns, etc is ON THE LINE, a scripted zone where we are shadowed directly by a range safety officer, etc. All the rest of our movements from table to table are controlled, careful, etc.

 

All that goes out the window if say Cartwheel or Bud or Culpepper go bouncing over a hitching post, flat out sprinting uprange through the normal traffic behind the shooter, folks who include at least some unaware of his need for the backup shotgun. Ole Culpepper dives to his cart, grabs his #5 backup '97, leapfrogs a couple of bystanders and re-engages to save his clean match? I DON'T THINK SO! AND if that's used as "case law" to allow a hand-off to replace a broke SG, I think both are stupid, as they encourage fast, unsafe gun handling behind the line..... NO "in play" gun ought to be handled behind the line during a "hot" stage except one that has been handed off, and it ought be carried cerimoniously, (as is normally the case) to the ULT and guarded.

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Most stage instructions say. Pistols-- as in more than one.

Rifle. As in ONE. Not Rifles.

Shotgun. As in ONE. Not Shotguns.

 

And where they are to be staged. Not Shotguns staged one here and grab another there.

 

 

Lets use some common sence and not have to make a rule for everything. Ya know that is not

what you are to do.

So Cowboy UP. Take your misses and be a man about it.

 

Don't try and lawyer your way out of it.

If a shooter stages his shotgun in the wrong location, he can restage it on the clock to the correct position then grab from there and reshoot it. If shooter has a squib in one pistol he can empty the other after shootin it and reload to save the squib potential misses.

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