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oversize dies, expander plugs, I'm confused


Pulp, SASS#28319

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Mike Bellivue and others suggest getting a .428 or .429 expander plug for use on .44-40, especially if you're using bullets larger than .427. What the heck are they talking about, is it: 1. like what is on the decapping pin of a rifle die that pushes the case neck against the sides of the die, (my pistol dies don't have that, my rifle dies do.)or 2. the thing that goes into the belling die that makes the bell. The good folks at Lee didn't have a clue and neither do I.

 

Maybe my explanation to the good folks at Lee is the reason they didn't have a clue. :lol: Hopefully someone here can muddle through what I'm trying to say and give me an answer that even I can understand.

 

I'm thinkin' of getting the RCBS Cowboy set, but it doesn't have the powder through belling die like the Lee does.

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I believe what they are trying to tell you is that you need a biger expanding die so that the over size bullet will be able to start into the case without shaving lead or deformoing the case. Hope this helps. Chief

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If I understand you question, Pulp, I would think they were talking about the sizing die with the expander and depriming pin. I have never checked the size of mine and I have a Lee die set in .44-40. At one time I shot an

older Vaquero with a .429 barrel. I never had to change the expander ball but I did have to bell the mouth of the cases. Now I shoot a .428 bullet and I don't have as many problems with fit.

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Pulp, #2.

 

In a 2-die rifle set, you have no other option. The little ball expand the case so big, and you can't do anything to make it bigger, except to replace the ball with a larger one.

 

But, since on 3-die sets the expander is tapered, you should just be able to screw it down deeper, to make the bell larger.

 

If, by chance, the expander/funnel thing on your 44/40 die is not wide enough at the top to bell the case far enough to take that 430 bullet, buying that piece for a 44 magnum die should solve the problem.

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What they are talking about is the thing that goes into the belling die to make the bell. The lower portion is supposed to enlarge the case to slightly under the size of the bullet.

IN MY EXPERIENCE, the smaller this size is, the better, as a tight fit will reduce the tendancy for the bullet to slide back into the case in the magazine and give more uniform balistics. There are many people who think I am wrong.

I have A way, not THE way. It works for me.

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OK, I've been loading 44-40 for years and I know exactly what he is talking about.

 

What Mike is talking about is the plug that sits inside the die you use to bell the case.

 

When you run a fired case up inside your first die, your sizing/decapping die, it squeezes the brass down from the expanded condition back to factory spec. Then when you run it through your 'belling' die, the insert, or plug does more than just put a flare at the case mouth. The section of the plug below the taper actually expands the case mouth just a bit, to bring the inside diameter to the proper size to receive the bullet. Ideally with a lead bullet, you want about .001 or so of interference. In other words, after you remove the case from the belling die, the inside diameter of the case mouth should be about .001 smaller than the diameter of your bullet. This means when the bullet slides into the case, the brass will expand slightly to receive it, creating a bit of friction. That friction is called neck tension, and is sometimes enough to hold the bullet in place without crimping at all. But that's a different story. Ever notice how sometimes ammo has a slight bulge where the bullet is? Below the bullet, the case is a little bit smaller? That is because of the interference. The case has expanded to receive the bullet, but below the bullet it is still the smaller diameter.

 

With most calibers, the expander plug in the 'belling die' is calculated to be a few thousandths smaller in diameter than the bullets normally used for that caliber. But with 44-40 it can get a little bit hairy. The old factory spec for 44-40 bullets was .427. But 44-40 rifling diameters have varied all over the map over the years. In the 19th Century, some were as small as .425, others as large as .430 or even more.

 

The expander die in most 44-40 die sets is calculated to be correct for a .427 diameter bullet. These days, many manufacturers are using the same barrels and barrel blanks that they use for 44 Special and 44 Magnum when they chamber a firearm for 44-40. Most of the Uberti rifles coming off the line these days have .429 barrels. So to properly fill the rifling grooves in one of these modern guns, sometimes a bullet of .429 diameter or even .430 diameter is called for. As Duffield says, with most calibers this would cause no problems. Guys routinely load 45 Colt with bullets that are .454 in diameter, even though modern 45 Colt specs call out a .451 rifling groove diameter and .452 bullets are the norm for that. But the 45 Colt case is much thicker at the neck than 44-40, about .012 usually vs about .007 for 44-40. Shoving a slightly larger diameter bullet into the sturdy 45 Colt case will not cause any problems because the .012 thick case will expand to accept it. But if one needs to use a 'bigger bullet' like .429 or .430 in a 44-40 case, shoving that big a bullet into the neck that has been expanded for a .427 bullet can sometimes create enough friction that the case mouth crumples as the bullet is seated, because the brass is so thin at the neck.

 

For that reason, if problems are encountered seating 'large bullets' in the vicinity of .429 or .430 in diameter in 44-40 cases, one solution is to use the expander plug from a 44 Special/44 Magnum die set. This plug will be slightly larger than the standard 44-40 plug because standard groove diameter of those two cartridges is .429. So substituting the slightly larger plug will expand the case mouth a tiny bit more, preventing excess friction from building up as the larger bullet is seated, and helping to prevent the delicate 44-40 case mouths from crumpling.

 

That's the story.

 

For what it's worth, I have 5 different rifles chambered for 44-40. I have slugged them all. My Uberti 1973 and my Winchester 1892 and Marlin 1894 all have .427 rifling grooves. The Uberti 1873 was my main match rifle for years. It shot fine with .427, .428, and .429 bullets. The chamber is a little bit tight, so .429 bullets could be a bit stubborn chambering. I settled on .427 bullets and shot them in all 3 rifles just fine for years, loading them with a standard RCBS die set with the plug for .427 bullets. More recently I have a acquired an Uberti Henry and another Winchester Model 1892. Both of these have .429 diameter rifling grooves. I have since upped my 'standard' 44-40 bullet to .428, as a compromise for my two different rifling groove diameters. I am still using the same RCBS die set with its plug for .427 bullets with no problems crumpling necks. From my past experience, loading a few .429 bullets with the same die set, I also did not have any problems there either.

 

By the way, just so you know, excess friction as the bullet seats is not the only reason necks may crumple when seating and crimping 44-40 bullets. It can also happen if the crimp die is set improperly. So if you are having problems, make sure you are crimping into the crimp groove with a teeny bit of space between the very top of the case mouth and the underside of the crimp groove. Do not allow the crimp to butt into the main diameter of the bullet. This can cause crumpling of case mouths too with thin 44-40 brass too.

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DJ, I won't even give you a P for the double tap. :lol:

 

I began casting the Mav Dutchman bullet last year, and got a .428 bullet sizing die from Lee. The bullets are coming out just a hair over .428. I've had considerable trouble getting them to fit in my Uberti SAA. If I set my belling die to just barely give me any bell then most of the time they'll work, but even then some will come out with the dreaded bulge just below the crimp. Funny thing about the whole mess is, I don't use my Uberti in SASS, since I shoot Frontiersman, but if they'll chamber in it, I know I won't have any problem with the '60 Henry or the Rossi '92.

 

After watching Mike Bellivue's video I realized what was happening.

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Howdy Again

 

If you are getting a slight bulge just below the crimp, and are seating and crimping in one step, a couple of things might be happening. It probably does not have much to do with how much bell you are putting on the case. Just put on the minimum, so you can barely feel it with your fingers and you don't shave off any lead when you seat the bullet.

 

First off, the Big Lube bullets carry so much lube that sometimes a little bit oozes out of the lube groove. It can seep down below the crimp. Soft BP lube behaves like a liquid and it cannot be compressed. So if a little bit oozes out of where it is supposed to be, a conventional crimp groove cannot squeeze hard enough to compress the lube. Instead, the leaked out lube leaves a small bulge just below the crimp.

 

Look closely at your crimp. Does it fit right into the crimp groove with no space at all between the tippy top of the brass and the underside of the top of the crimp groove? If so, what often happens is just as the brass is rising up the last tiny bit into the crimp die, the case mouth butts against the underside of the crimp groove on the bullet. A more robust case like 45 Colt would just bulldoze its way into the lead, but the thinner brass at the neck of a 44-40 does not have that kind of strength. Something has to give and it is usually the brass. Because the bullet is still being shoved into the case at this point, the bullet will shove down on the crimp, causing a bulge. Usually below the bullet.

 

These are two separate failure modes. One of the things that is so much fun about loading 44-40, especially with Black Powder.

 

The second situation can often be cured by not seating the bullet quite so deep. Seat your bullet just a tad shallower than you are doing. Seat it so there is about .010, no more, between the tippy top of the case mouth and the underside of the top edge of the crimp groove. This will allow the brass someplace to go as the crimp is formed, preventing the brass from butting into the lead. When crimped, this will leave a hairline of space between the top of the brass and the underside of the crimp groove. This might be a problem with Smokeless, bullets might set back a tiny bit in the magazine of a rifle from the spring pressure slamming them together every time one is stripped out of the magazine. It should not be a problem with Black Powder, as there is a solid plug of powder under the bullet keeping it from going anywhere.

 

Frankly, the only solution I have found to the first problem is to only seat my bullet with the crimping/seating die, and to form my crimp with a Lee Factory Crimp die. The factory crimp die squeezes down harder and smooshes (Black Powder technical term) the lube back where it belongs. I hate to admit it, but using the LFC die has solved all my crimping problems with 44-40 and Black Powder.

 

Regarding your cartridges not chambering easily, welcome to the wonderful world of the persnickity 44-40. Have you slugged your barrels? What size are your chamber throats? Do you absolutely have to have a .428 bullet? Could you get by with .427? What brand of brass are you using. This is sometimes a case of a 'big' bullet opening up the case neck just enough that the round will not chamber well in a tight chamber. Remember I said that .429 bullets did not like to chamber in the tight chamber of my 1873? That's why.

 

Possible workarounds.

 

A lot of 44-40 revolvers come with chamber throats that do not match up well with their rifling groove diameters. Some 44-40 revolvers were coming through with .429 diameter rifling grooves and chamber throats only about .425 in diameter. Led to poor accuracy as well as problems chambering bullets of the proper size. In this case, having a smith ream the chamber throats was often the solution. Step one, slug your barrel. Find out what diameter your rifling grooves are. That will dictate everything else. Step two, remove the cylinder, point it down and drop one of your .428 bullets into the chambers. What happens? Does it fall through? Does it hang up? The proper size bullets for a chamber throat of any given diameter should barely hang up in the chamber throat. Light finger pressure should be able to shove it through. If it falls right through it is too small. If it takes a lot of force to shove it through it is too big. This part can get real ugly.

 

Use the brass with the absolutely thinnest neck available. Used to be that meant Winchester. I have been having trouble getting Winchester 44-40 brass recently, so I have started using Starline instead. Pretty good results, just about the same thickness as Winchester. Use the smallest diameter bullet you can get away with. .427 might make a difference.

 

I have found that .428 bullets are working well in the .429 barrels of my Henry and one of my '92s. I cast from dead soft pure lead. I suspect they may be bumping up a bit in the rifling to shoot well. They do shoot well and accurately. You might try some .427 bullets and see if that helps.

 

Welcome to the fun world of 44-40.

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Frankly, the only solution I have found to the first problem is to only seat my bullet with the crimping/seating die, and to form my crimp with a Lee Factory Crimp die. The factory crimp die squeezes down harder and smooshes (Black Powder technical term) the lube back where it belongs. I hate to admit it, but using the LFC die has solved all my crimping problems with 44-40 and Black Powder.

 

 

 

What Driftwood said.

 

I shoot an Uberti 1866 and have found I must use Mav Dutchman Big Lube .428 sized bullets. 429s do not wish to chamber consistently and 430s will not chamber at all.

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I've been shooting .44-40 since I joined SASS back in '99. Never had much trouble reloading it on a single stage press, but when I went to a turret things changed. Apparently the turret has just enough up and down slack in it that it makes setting dies very difficult.

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