Les Phalanges Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 For the past 5 or 6 years I've been shooting Colt 3rd. generation SAA's in .45 Colt. Great guns, but I've been wanting to try something new. I've been looking into Open Tops a/o conversions. I see that Open Tops offered by Taylor and Cimarron are both Ubertis. Anyone notice a difference? Also, does anyone have any comments about whether any of the conversions may be a better choice? Taylor offers the blackpowder Colt clones and the drop-in conversion cylinders too. I prefer the 1860 Army grip and using the drop-in cylinders would give me more choices of barrel lengths. They offer 1860 Army models by Uberti and Pietta. The Piettas cost a lot less but if I'm going to buy a gun I want it to work. Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated. Les Phalanges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Yahoo Delirious Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Hi LP, I just sold my Vaquero .45s and will be shooting my conversions exclusively. I have a Pietta 1858 with the six shot conversion cylinder in it. My other gun is an 1860 Army with the 5 shot Kirst convertor w/ loading gate. I like that one the best because of the loading gate. I shoot 200 grain bullets out of cowboy .45 special brass. (black powder of course) Never had any problems with them. They are both great fun!! YD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Phalanges Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 Hi LP, I just sold my Vaquero .45s and will be shooting my conversions exclusively. I have a Pietta 1858 with the six shot conversion cylinder in it. My other gun is an 1860 Army with the 5 shot Kirst convertor w/ loading gate. I like that one the best because of the loading gate. I shoot 200 grain bullets out of cowboy .45 special brass. (black powder of course) Never had any problems with them. They are both great fun!! YD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Phalanges Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 Thanks, Yahoo. I don't think I'll be shooting black powder (been there, done that) but who knows? I'm going to give Taylor's a call tomorrow. One of my questions will be if their conversion cyls. have loading gates. Thanks for the lead. Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mingo Frank Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 1860 Armies with a conversion cylinder drop you down to 5 round cylinders and will probably need retiming. The Uberti Late model Open Top has the Army grip while the early model has Navies. The Uberti OTs come in a couple barrel length choices also. My first CASS cartridge gun was a Pietta Army converted to .45 Schofield. Never did get the timing correct and ended up changing back to loose BP only. I've had several Uberti OTs and Conversions and all shot well once the arbor was adjusted. Hope that helps, Mingo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Howdy Les, When I made the decision to buy a brace of Uberti OpenTop revolvers, I basically decided against conversion cylinders. Mostly because I did not really see any big price difference. The cost of the Cap & Ball revolver plus the cost of the conversion cylinder was pretty much equal to the cost of an OpenTop revolver. Another factor for me was that all my CAS guns are 44s and I did not want to introduce 45s into my collection. I just did not want to load 45s and then bring 45 revolver ammo and 44 rifle ammo to a match. Plus, I liked the idea of shooting 44 Colt. Its a nice little cartridge by comparison to the 44-40 I normally shoot. Anyway, if someone made these in 44-40 I would buy a brace. These guns really point well, better than most other revolvers I have. No matter which way you go, you will need to tune up the guns for CAS use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Les, Most folks I know with Open Tops and conversions enjoy them but do not use them too much. They often have quirks that are difficult to resolve plus they will not hold up as well as later designs. But for some fun variety, they are great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macinaw Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I have a pair of Uberti Open Tops in 45. They point great because there really are not any sights to speak of; just look down the barrel. The only bad thing about the OT is the firing pin is soft and will eventually have to be replaced with a hardened steel pin. p.s. Don't put the wedge in too tight; this will bind up the cylinder! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Phalanges Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 Howdy Les, When I made the decision to buy a brace of Uberti OpenTop revolvers, I basically decided against conversion cylinders. Mostly because I did not really see any big price difference. The cost of the Cap & Ball revolver plus the cost of the conversion cylinder was pretty much equal to the cost of an OpenTop revolver. Another factor for me was that all my CAS guns are 44s and I did not want to introduce 45s into my collection. I just did not want to load 45s and then bring 45 revolver ammo and 44 rifle ammo to a match. Plus, I liked the idea of shooting 44 Colt. Its a nice little cartridge by comparison to the 44-40 I normally shoot. Anyway, if someone made these in 44-40 I would buy a brace. These guns really point well, better than most other revolvers I have. No matter which way you go, you will need to tune up the guns for CAS use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Phalanges Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 You make a good point about the cost of OT's vs the gun and conversion cylinders. I take the "drop-in" description with a grain of salt too. As for tuning, I agree. I had my Colt SAA's tuned by Bob Munden years ago and it was worth it. Thanks, Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oklahomabound Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 My main match guns are Uberti's 1851 Richards-Mason Open Top Conversion revolvers in .38 Special. They have only shot Black Powder from the start-duelist style, which was 4 years ago... no issues to speak of... ...and yes POA is POI... ...here's the link: 1851 Richard-Mason ..note: these were built originally as a conversion and yes, they have a loading gate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamond Curly SASS#57086 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I have two sets of the Open Tops, one in 38Spl and the other in 45 S&W. I traded for some Army grips for the 38's and shoot the 45 S&W with the Navy grip. I have shot the 58's with a conversion cylinder as well and they shot well with no problems. It is very easy to remove the cylinder on the 58's to reload in any type of weather. I shoot duelest and have heard that shooting the open tops two handed can be somwhat of a problem but I have never shot two handed so it is only a rumor from me. I do wish they made the open tops in 44/40 to match my rifle but there is enough difference in the 45 S&W over the 44/40 so that has not been a problem. I like the looks of the open tops, either the RM conversions or the 58 New Armies. I also have a 1860 Richards in a Army grip that also has the loading gate just as the RM Conversions. Have shot my open tops for seven years now and have not had a problem with the firing pins that I have also heard about. Any of the revolovers are very accurate and it does cost a bit more for the conversion decision after first buying the C&B revolver and then the conversion cylinder. I shoot mostly BP but have also shot some smokeless with the same results. Pick one you like and enjoy. DC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Johns Wolf Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 When I switched from my Uberti SAA's to conversion type pistols my first pair of match pistols were OTs with 7,5" barrels, Army grips in .44 Colt, smokeless only. Love the round in pistols & rifles. Shot them 2 handed because I did non know better. One of the pistols gave me some issues with the loading gate screw getting loose but that was solved quickly. Then I decided the OTs are too modern and too easy to handle. Next step was having a pair of Centaure C&B pistols - Belgian Colt 1860 pattern pistols - with 5,5" barrel converted into Long Cylinder conversions in .44 Colt cal. These LCCs don't have a loading gate but a loading channel is cut into the right recoil shield like the originals had. Works fine for me. Apart from a wedge flying away now and then no issues, Naturally pointing pistols. I shoot them duellist style. Long Johns Wolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowhand Bob, 24229 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I have, or have had several of both versions, and really like them. I do agree with Marauders opinion that these should be viewed as a fun alternate to your other guns. I have one of the earliest pairs of .44s that Cimaron imported and I had rechambered from .44Colt to .44Spec. Good solid guns and I tend to agree with the idea that Uberti must have beefed them up to handle the large caliber six shot cylinders, at least they seem to lose a lot of the feel and svelte looks of a cap and ball Colt. Remingtons with Kirst Converters in .45 were a favourite fun gun for a long time. For me these guns have only one downside, the grips are a bit uncomfortable, in that they crowd the fingers behind the trigger guard. If not for that quirk, and many might like the difference, it would still be my first choice. Go with the Kirst solid ring converter and retain the cap and ball cylinders for double the fun. I currently have a pair of short barl '58s with a total of ten c&b cylinders plus the two Kirst converters. Swapping pre-loaded cap and ball cylinders and/or pulling Kirst cylinders for loading after every stage keeps them babies from clogging and one of the little outside the gun presses makes c&b loading a breeze. Most expensive way to play BUT it allows the most options and if one likes the feel of the old Remington style then this is it. Without a doubt, my favourite stock grip on a cap and ball pistol is the Navy style as dreamed up by Pietta. Many will snicker at the slight bell formed by the grip frame at the base but for my hand it was a pure winner. I currently have three pairs of Pietta Navy madels but my favourite is the off-breed pair of '51 Navy Sheriffs Model .44s. These combine my favourite grip with a short barl and come in a fancy polished steel with engraving. Though many scoff at a Navy in .44 caliber, brother we gots a lotta configurations in SASS that make this complaint seem trivial! Though it will be a bit tougher to do with Colt clones, I hope to obtain a pair of Kirst converters for these pistols in the near future. Of the guns I am familiar with, the Cimaron Uberti R/M Conversions would be the easiest and cheapest route to take BUT after many years of playing with examples of several styles, it was my least favourite. I have cap and ball examples from both Uberti and Pietta, I now pretty much consider them neck and neck in quality but stay away from the older Pietta Colt style clones as I had trouble with many of them. Their older Remington models worked great but had an inferior finish and action when compared to the earlier Ubertis. Some will argue this but I think that in recent years Pietta c&b has improved some and Uberti c&b went down some and now their equal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six-Shot Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Les, Most folks I know with Open Tops and conversions enjoy them but do not use them too much. They often have quirks that are difficult to resolve plus they will not hold up as well as later designs. But for some fun variety, they are great. I have a number of (Italian made) black powder "open tops" (any Colt style revolver without a top strap), some with conversion cylinders, some without, some with loading gates. I shoot them occasionally at local monthly CAS (for fun and variety) but I would never trust them in a "championship". It's not a question of "if they will break" but "when they will break". The metal the Italians use to make the internal parts like the hand, springs, bolt lock, arbor, sights, etc. is "soft". IMO (and experience) they cannot hold up to the pounding of CAS. The metal they use for the barrels and cylinder are OK though. If you're thinking of using them as "main match" guns you better have "back-ups" and an inventory of spare-parts in your toolbox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangfire SASS #24379 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I started using a pair of Cimarron OTs in .44 Russian about 10 years ago and had used a '58 with a conversion .45 six shot cyl before that. While I liked the Remington, one challenge was if a stage called for you to load a 6th round on the clock - takes a little more time to drop the cylinder, take the plate off and add a round than simply opening the loading gate. I also like the .44 Rus caliber as recoil is negligible when I load them to a point where both guns shoot to the same point at CAS distances. I love the Open Tops - I have the Navy grips and shoot duelist. If you shoot 2 handed and go as fast as you can, you might experience issues but I have never had a problem other than the front sight falling off one at a match. Despite wht you think of the sights on this revolver, it did impact accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint 976 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I have used two Opentop '71s as main match pistols since 2003, and I have trusted them to shoot Bordertown every year. I replaced the firing pins, (made my own from music wire) and installed Ruger coil and plunger hand springs. (Which cured the overtravel problem shooting two handed) Mainsprings and bolt springs are Wolff. I take backup SAAs with me but have never needed them. One is 44 Sp and the other 44 Colt, and I shoot 44 Russian in both. I have shot them with BP, but usually smokeless. I have barrels and cylinders for 38Special and 45Schofield, and occasiionally shoot them in those calibers. The internals, and the steel in all the Uberti Opentop and conversion revolvers is much higher grade than the cap & ball versions, and agree with Six-Shot that they (C& won't hold up to heavy use as conversions. However, the Opentop, and the factory made conversions will hold up quite well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Howdy Les, I have a pair of .45 cal Uberti Open Tops that I bought new in '08. Out of the box they never ran right as they would periodically lock up which was frustrating as hell. Sent them back under warranty, but the problem was never solved that way. Then I sent them down to Alan Harton for an action job and they now run like a dream. Love 'em, especially for BP. Two other pards at our club bought them new. One pard's guns was piercing primers, the other pard has never had a problem of any kind. Regardless, you'll want to factor in the cost of an action job. One other thing to consider is the sight picture. The rear sight on the conversions is a slot cut in the hammer just like the 1860 Army. The rear sight on the Open Tops is a dovetail at the back of the barrel, ahead of the cylinder face. When compared to 1873 Colts, both sight pictures are lousy, with the Open Tops being better than the conversions. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Phalanges Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 I started using a pair of Cimarron OTs in .44 Russian about 10 years ago and had used a '58 with a conversion .45 six shot cyl before that. While I liked the Remington, one challenge was if a stage called for you to load a 6th round on the clock - takes a little more time to drop the cylinder, take the plate off and add a round than simply opening the loading gate. I also like the .44 Rus caliber as recoil is negligible when I load them to a point where both guns shoot to the same point at CAS distances. I love the Open Tops - I have the Navy grips and shoot duelist. If you shoot 2 handed and go as fast as you can, you might experience issues but I have never had a problem other than the front sight falling off one at a match. Despite wht you think of the sights on this revolver, it did impact accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Phalanges Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 Well, I shoot Duelist too. As for "fast as I can", I ain't that fast. Thanks for the tips. Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I shot my one Open-top all this year ,,,,,,,,,,, Now I got another one on order .... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Juan #84671 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I shoot open-tops regularly. I have replicas of the Open-Top, Type II conversions and Richards-Mason Army conversions. The conversions were purchased as conversions. In other words, I did not purchase 1860s and conversion cylinders. I had Alan Harton in Houston do an action/reliability job on each of them. I shoot the Type IIs most often because I love the 8" barrel. I've had not problems with any of them other than one broken spring in one of the Type IIs. All are .44 Special. I prefer .45/.44 to .38 and after much research decided .44 is a better choice for any open-top. One of my Type IIs started life as a .44 Colt. I had the cylinder bored out for the slightly longer .44 Special. I could still shoot .44 Colt. I shoot .44 Special to keep the number of calibers I have to manage for each match down to one. I also shoot an 1866 in .44 Special. I too shoot Duelist and am not in the game for speed (although I try to shoot as quickly and accurately as I can), but I sure like the style points I earn and the fun I have with my O-Ts. Good luck with your choice and O-T shooting. I do not think you will regret the change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tame Bill #30699 Life Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I have been playing this game for almost 11 years exclusively with Cimarron (Uberti) Open Top revolvers. That being said, none of my OT’s and “51 Navy R-M conversion revolvers are box stock smoke-wagons. My brace of Open Tops and all 4 of my ’51 Navies have been extensively re-engineered by Bob Munden. Yes, I shoot Frontier Cartridge Duelist, but all of these Option #2 prepared revolvers are capable of being shot rapidly using a 2-hand grip. These revolvers offer several advantages versus closed frame revolvers: • Short hammer/cocking stroke. • Low bore line to grip relationship (extremely “pointable” and less muzzle flip). • Easy to clean as compared to closed top revolvers (a plus when shooting BP). • High degree of “Style Points” (doesn’t really count to anyone but me). The negatives are: • Virtually non-existent sights. • Heavier than equivalent revolvers (non-fluted cylinders). • Cost more to have made match ready than a typical Model P style revolvers (more labor intensive; time = $). Weigh the advantages against the disadvantages and purchase the Open Tops anyway, they are just plain FUN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 I've been shooting '71 Open Tops as main match guns since 2002. I shoot on average 4 matches a month plus "play." I shoot gunfighter rather than "two fisted." My guns are set up for all the available calibers for the Open Top, .45 Schofield, .38 Special and .44 Special also with all the available barrel lengths. I can switch from .45 to .38 in about 3 minutes. After correcting the barrel/arbor fit and a good action job, I can shoot all these calibers on one frame. Very convenient. Once set up correctly, the guns are just as reliable as any other. I'm also a nut for conversion guns but don't compete with BP guns that have been "converted." I shoot Uberti conversions that were manufactured as cartridge guns from the beginning. There made from a bit sterner stuff with two step hands. Much more resilient. Setting up an "Open Top" for our game is a bit mor complicated than setting up a Mdl P, but I personally think here a lot more fun. Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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