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I am kind of curious about proposal #2


Ketchum Quick, SASS #72923

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We had our annual fall member meeting a couple weeks ago and we went over the proposed rule changes to be reviewed at the SASS Convention in Las Vegas. When we looked at all of the proposed items we read them from the Territorial Governor's bulletin and discussed the pros and cons of each one. Before voting on each one I asked if everyone understood the proposal and if there needed to be further discussion prior to the vote. When everyone was clear on the topic at hand we voted.

 

I was suprised to see how many voted for the passing of topic number 2. There were roughly twenty in attendence and more than 15 were for it passing.

 

I am just curious as to what your clubs have seen in regards to this vote.

 

Ketchum

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Remind me, what is #2?

Here ya' go Dave..

 

2) Should the limiting criteria for shooters in Age Based categories be changed from the current “minimum qualifying age OR GREATER” to “between the ages of…”?

(e.g. Wranglers from 36-48; 49ers from 49-59; Seniors from 60-64; etc.)

A YES vote would no longer allow a shooter to compete in Age Based categories below his/her actual age range.

Cowboy/Cowgirl category age range would end at 35 years of age.

The Junior (Buckaroo/ette and Young Gun) categories would NOT be affected.

A NO vote would leave the Age Based category restrictions unchanged.

e.g. Two shooters with adjustable-sighted revolvers & a 66 or 73 rifle:

-- A 65 yr old competitor currently has the option to sign up in FIVE Age Based categories:

Silver Senior, Senior, 49er, Wrangler or Cowboy;

-- A 26 yr old using those firearms only has ONE option: Cowboy)

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Here ya' go Dave..

 

2) Should the limiting criteria for shooters in Age Based categories be changed from the current “minimum qualifying age OR GREATER” to “between the ages of…”?

(e.g. Wranglers from 36-48; 49ers from 49-59; Seniors from 60-64; etc.)

A YES vote would no longer allow a shooter to compete in Age Based categories below his/her actual age range.

Cowboy/Cowgirl category age range would end at 35 years of age.

The Junior (Buckaroo/ette and Young Gun) categories would NOT be affected.

A NO vote would leave the Age Based category restrictions unchanged.

e.g. Two shooters with adjustable-sighted revolvers & a 66 or 73 rifle:

-- A 65 yr old competitor currently has the option to sign up in FIVE Age Based categories:

Silver Senior, Senior, 49er, Wrangler or Cowboy;

-- A 26 yr old using those firearms only has ONE option: Cowboy)

you are limited to only one catagory per match. you can't change on each stage if you chose to drop down and end up getting bested on the first or second stage you are stuck for the whole match ( tuff titty said the kitty but it's good milk)

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you are limited to only one catagory per match. you can't change on each stage if you chose to drop down and end up getting bested on the first or second stage you are stuck for the whole match ( tuff titty said the kitty but it's good milk)

I don't think your right, It doesn't allow a (lets say a 49er) to shoot wrangler period, if your a 49er you shoot 49er or one of the costume base cats or one of the BP cats but as far as age base you shoot your age group and no sliding down.

 

Much to my disappointment our club has a vote of NO so far.

 

KK

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I can't speak for any club, but speaking for myself, I say NO!

 

 

Grizz,

since you shoot the most at Pawnee the most I would let them know of your vote.

 

KK

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KK, already handled weeks ago, but thanks!

 

If it passes I'll have to shoot 49er, BW, CC, or a BP cat. Even if I fit in a mold, I don't like having someone else force me to be there.

 

I've shot Cowboy since I started, don't know if I can break myself of writing that down for category :D

 

I guess the rest of the folks in Cowboy are tired of me coming down and 'stealing' their buckles and trophies. Hang on, let me count them up, mmmm, and ummmm, er, don't forget about mmmmm, hang on, gotta take my shoes off, and mmmmmmmmm, and then there was......

 

Grand total = ZERO.

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I have a problem with it passing as well.I turned 65 this summer.I've been shooting Senior Duelist for over 3 years now and have gotten so used to shooting 1 handed it's second nature to me.Our club had a "fun" WB shoot.I started out 2 handed,but when I changed mags,I automatically went back to Duelist style.And since there's NO Silver Senior Duelist catagory I'll either have to compete against 2 handed shooters or try to retrain myself to shoot 2 handed again.Not that I'm all that competitive now,but I'd sure be in trouble against 2 handed shooters.It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks.I voted NO btw if you can't tell by this post....lol.

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I have a problem with it passing as well.I turned 65 this summer.I've been shooting Senior Duelist for over 3 years now and have gotten so used to shooting 1 handed it's second nature to me.Our club had a "fun" WB shoot.I started out 2 handed,but when I changed mags,I automatically went back to Duelist style.And since there's NO Silver Senior Duelist catagory I'll either have to compete against 2 handed shooters or try to retrain myself to shoot 2 handed again.Not that I'm all that competitive now,but I'd sure be in trouble against 2 handed shooters.It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks.I voted NO btw if you can't tell by this post....lol.

 

Charlie - you would be able to stay in Sr Duelist just fine, even if it passes. The proposal applies to the "straight" age based categories. Your category is a shooting style category first, and an age split second.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Why do we have all the age splits now anyway. And who is this Deuce guy who can influence the vote of so many people in his club that a vote is a forgone conclusion?

Well if you don't know Duece, you must pay closer attention to the wire, he is one of the Top shooters in the country travels and shoots all over the country, all I think he did was voice his opinon, if people CHOSE to listen then fine, but last time I checked we all have free will and can make our own minds up.

 

KK

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KK, already handled weeks ago, but thanks!

 

If it passes I'll have to shoot 49er, BW, CC, or a BP cat. Even if I fit in a mold, I don't like having someone else force me to be there.

 

I've shot Cowboy since I started, don't know if I can break myself of writing that down for category :D

 

I guess the rest of the folks in Cowboy are tired of me coming down and 'stealing' their buckles and trophies. Hang on, let me count them up, mmmm, and ummmm, er, don't forget about mmmmm, hang on, gotta take my shoes off, and mmmmmmmmm, and then there was......

 

Grand total = ZERO.

Gizz, you point is what? Is 49 going to kill you? (probably do better there anyway) You don't like people telling where you can shoot, but yet you follow the rules in place that tell you what you can and can't do, Whether you are a threat to any category is not the point, the point is what if you had a chance and some cherry picker looked and said oh a cat that I can get a top three in and bumps you right out of the hunt, not fair in anyone's book and I see it at the large matches too often, people changing cats for a buckle.

 

KK

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Gizz, you point is what? Is 49 going to kill you? (probably do better there anyway) You don't like people telling where you can shoot, but yet you follow the rules in place that tell you what you can and can't do, Whether you are a threat to any category is not the point, the point is what if you had a chance and some cherry picker looked and said oh a cat that I can get a top three in and bumps you right out of the hunt, not fair in anyone's book and I see it at the large matches too often, people changing cats for a buckle.

 

KK

 

Well put KK.

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-------the point is what if you had a chance and some cherry picker looked and said oh a cat that I can get a top three in and bumps you right out of the hunt, not fair in anyone's book and I see it at the large matches too often, people changing cats for a buckle.

 

KK

 

 

If ya are scared of some oletimer falling back to your catagory and beating ya, maybe ya oughta practice more shooting and less worrying about it. That way the oletimer won't be a problem for ya next time. Problem solved.

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Ketchem, isn't Duece a member of your club? And, didn't he have the wire thread advocating against the evils of "cherry picking"?. My memory could be wrong, but if this is true, I would think you'd have been more surprised by a "No" vote.

Actually I never started a thread on the subject, only voiced my opinion on a thread or two. Sorry it doesn't alighn with your way of thinking. You've always been smarter than me. But I'll stick to my guns on this one. Cherry picking is real and bad for the sport. It's never affected me personally. I wAs present and voted at the meeting and did not campaign for one side or the other.

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Well if you don't know Duece, you must pay closer attention to the wire, he is one of the Top shooters in the country travels and shoots all over the country, all I think he did was voice his opinon, if people CHOSE to listen then fine, but last time I checked we all have free will and can make our own minds up.

 

KK

:lol::lol::lol: Straight Arrow got ya! :lol::lol::lol:

 

Deuce is the TG at Arrow's club. :rolleyes:

 

 

KQ

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Hey Max,

 

I didn't want to start a rant post about prop #2 with this post. I was just curious as to what the TG's are getting for feedback at their club. I am very familiar with the previous posts one the subject and both sides of the arguement. I was wondering what direction if any direction the votes were swinging. That is all.

 

KQ

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I need to be a member at a club someday! I sure would like to throw my vote out there....maybe it would count, maybe not, but it sure would be nice to partake in SASS' future.

 

Good job to those that do vote...

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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More rules to address a small minority...that'll affect many more people negatively.

 

Sorry Grizzly...you may enjoy shootin Cowboy...but we gotta have rules now that keep Cherry Pickers from Cherry Pickin...heaven forbid that we just restrict catagory jumping once a match is a couple of weeks away...

 

It is what it is I guess...obviously I voted NO cuz I like to have some freedoms that my age affords me...but dang it! We'z got to stop them Cherry Pickers!!!!

 

:wacko:

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For once I agree with what Phantom said. Rules aimed a small set of abusers always end up hurting the innocent majority.

 

I've wracking my brain (ok, not all that much to wrack :huh: ), and I can't come up with any other sport where older competitors can't compete in a younger category?

 

Cheers,

Harvey

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Just a hypothetical question - say if proposal #2 is passed and proposal #5 is passed what happens to the ladies who would be shooting in the Grand Dame category - will they be homeless with no category to shoot in because of proposal#2 being passed?

 

On a side note:

 

I don't know about your area of the country but up in our area we have two to three ladies moving into the Grand Dame category each year - it is growing and will continue to grow - as the lady shooters become older - so why propose to eliminate know?

 

 

Just my two cents

 

TL B)

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ok, let me throw this out another way for you 'no' voters to chew on. You get a fella who is new, interested in the sport and just starting out. He shoots 3 or 4 clubs in his general area but repeatedly runs into a situation where very good experienced shooters attend the monthly shoots.

When the monthly members sign up for classes-- they check out which state and national champions are there --- then drop categories (age) so they have a chance to win or place. That puts the new shooter in a situation where he is pretty much in it for fun now. He maybe 10 years younger than the cherry pickers but 1st or 2nd year shooter vs a 15 year shooter.

 

There are guys who will say --- I need to improve or I'm having fun. There are just as many who will say --- There is no use in doing this, spending big bucks cause I'm always going to get pounded every time I shoot here. Maybe I ought to look at doing something else. Heck, I can't even place in a local match.

 

Further--- how fair is it to let the 'old guys' move down but not the young guys -- move up.

 

I honestly feel that because there are so many old guys that a 'no' vote will carry and I really do think 'fair is fair' and if the young can't shoot older categories then older should not shoot younger categories. If you don't like age based or want 'more' competition shoot a gear related category (example; classic cowboy) instead of an age based one.

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If anyone could move to any age bracket, why the heck have them at all??????

 

When the age brackets were put in, my understanding is that it was done to protect the older shooters from the younger, or something to that effect. By enforcing the lower end of the age brackets you are saying that the younger guys now need to be protected from the older guys???

 

So lets protect everyone from everyone else, put in mandatory age, weight, height, vision, mobility, and ability categories. Everyone gets a buckle, match fees will double, administrators will go crazy and bow out, and mayhem will ensue.

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Hi Ketchum,

 

The club I represent favors its passage. The only dissenter told me to "use my judgement." :)

 

I have three proxies and they are all voting no.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

Thanks Allie Mo for actually responding to my post. You are a peach! :)

 

KQ

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ok, let me throw this out another way for you 'no' voters to chew on. You get a fella who is new, interested in the sport and just starting out. He shoots 3 or 4 clubs in his general area but repeatedly runs into a situation where very good experienced shooters attend the monthly shoots.

When the monthly members sign up for classes-- they check out which state and national champions are there --- then drop categories (age) so they have a chance to win or place. That puts the new shooter in a situation where he is pretty much in it for fun now. He maybe 10 years younger than the cherry pickers but 1st or 2nd year shooter vs a 15 year shooter.

 

What makes you think that the "New" shooters are in the lower age catagories...and it's pretty sad that you have folks that jump categories to win a monthly match. And when I was growing up in this game, how I placed in my category meant nothing as I was measuring how I was doing against a few people. Beat them and then change my marks...didn't matter what category I was in.

 

There are guys who will say --- I need to improve or I'm having fun. There are just as many who will say --- There is no use in doing this, spending big bucks cause I'm always going to get pounded every time I shoot here. Maybe I ought to look at doing something else. Heck, I can't even place in a local match.

 

Oh bull!!! If someone is truly interested in improving they will focus on things other then the category...oy!

 

Further--- how fair is it to let the 'old guys' move down but not the young guys -- move up.

 

First off, nothing in life is "Fair"...but one gains some benefits as they get older...just look at your local diner menu next time you're there.

 

I honestly feel that because there are so many old guys that a 'no' vote will carry and I really do think 'fair is fair' and if the young can't shoot older categories then older should not shoot younger categories. If you don't like age based or want 'more' competition shoot a gear related category (example; classic cowboy) instead of an age based one.

 

This last comment is beyond me...try learning about why the age based categories where put in place here in SASS...

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Aren't we all supposedly doing this because it's FUN?Can't remember the last time I saw anyone win a cadillac doing this.But then maybe I've been going to the wrong shoots.

 

I really wish folks would quite insulting those that put in the time and effort to get good because they want to win.

 

As Bud said: If I couldn't compete I wouldn't have fun and if I didn't have fun I wouldn't compete.

 

:FlagAm:

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If anyone could move to any age bracket, why the heck have them at all??????

 

When the age brackets were put in, my understanding is that it was done to protect the older shooters from the younger, or something to that effect. By enforcing the lower end of the age brackets you are saying that the younger guys now need to be protected from the older guys???

 

So lets protect everyone from everyone else, put in mandatory age, weight, height, vision, mobility, and ability categories. Everyone gets a buckle, match fees will double, administrators will go crazy and bow out, and mayhem will ensue.

 

 

That has nothing to do with it, not a matter of protection but a sense of fairness.

 

KK

 

ps I was a match director and your way off base about match fee buckle assesment, this rule changes nothing in the way a match is run except you will shoot your age .

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Just a hypothetical question - say if proposal #2 is passed and proposal #5 is passed what happens to the ladies who would be shooting in the Grand Dame category - will they be homeless with no category to shoot in because of proposal#2 being passed?

 

On a side note:

 

I don't know about your area of the country but up in our area we have two to three ladies moving into the Grand Dame category each year - it is growing and will continue to grow - as the lady shooters become older - so why propose to eliminate know?

 

 

Just my two cents

 

TL B)

I agree as far #5 I voted NO, only because I believe the women should have every Category a Man has, wish it had been wriiten a little different, because of the aging population of SASS, I believe we do need a split in the upper age brackets, if my memory serves me right ES was the largest at WR in 2011.

 

KK

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Hi Folks,

 

Here is some additional information. If Item 2 passes, Item 5 will have upper limits on the age categories. If Item 2 fails, Item 5 will not have upper limits.

 

If we have a closed range, the proposal says the following, "Shooters will not be allowed to compete in an "Age" based category that is outside of their age group, except in the case of a category "Rollback."

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS The following is more detail from Item 5.

 

Category Rules:

1. Categories listed are the "Official" SASS categories.

2. All categories must be initially offered at State and above level matches.

3. MDs are NOT required to honor categories that fail to secure a minimum of 5 entries at the State and Regional level, or a minimum of 10 entries at WR and EOT.

A cutoff deadline shall be established and posted by the sponsoring club.

4. Match application forms should ask for a shooter's second (or third) choice.

5. If it becomes necessary to drop any category due to a failure to meet the minimum number of shooters required, those effected shooters will be placed into their second choice category. If no second choice has been given, "Age" based category shooters will “Rollback" into the next lower category.

The only exception is the Cowboy category. Since it is at the bottom of the scale, it will roll forward into the Wrangler category if necessary.

The Junior categories are exempt.

6. Shooters will not be allowed to compete in an "Age" based category that is outside of their age group, except in the case of a category "Rollback" No. 6 will be deleted if Agenda Item 2 fails.

7. At the MD discretion, ANY category may be added, and any minimum requirement may be reduced.

8. These rules apply to state and above matches, and are recommended at all lower level matches.

9. OPEN category is any age/shooting style/propellant w/SASS-legal CAS equipment.

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