Class III short rifle?

[Oddnews SASS# 24779]

I didn't want to hijack the thread on Mares Legs, and I can't find the answer to a question via search of the BATFE websites, so I wonder if anyone know the answer to this.

 

If you have an 1860 Army with a conversion cylinder, cut for a shoulder stock (but not equipped with a loading gate), are you violating federal law if you put the shoulder stock on while the conversion cylinder is in place? My gut feeling is the answer is "yes, this is the creation of a Class III short rifle," but there may be an exception in the law as there is for the various "carbine" Broomhandles or Lugers.

 

Does anyone know?

[Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 Life]

Please Note: I am deleting my comments re this post.

 

I don't want to incur any liability by giving any ATF/NFA Advice via the Wire and The various ATF/NFA Regs are extremely compicated and I do not wan tot chance giving out any incorrect infoirmation. I will leave posted any direct quotes form the atf website or other documented websites..I simply won't post my own comments or interpretations about any legality issue on Wire

 

Please refer to www.atf.gov for any questions you may have

 

Thank You, and I hope My Wire Pards understand

I would be happy fior anyone tocontact me off Wire at:

 

rsmhd_1@charter.net

 

or: www.nevadawesternfirearms.com

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Nope

 

It's classified as a pistol, not a rifle. since the gun never had a longer barrel to shorten and was made from scratch as a pistol(there are other regulatory reasons as well), it's a pistol and not regulated.If the barrel was shortened to creae the Mares Leg, it would fall under Class III Regs as an AOW

 

My understanding is that the original Mares Laig made for Steve McQueen in Wanted Dead or Alive presented several regulatory issues for the Produucers, and 3 were made for the show.

 

By the way an SBR (short barreled rifle or SBS short barreled shotgun is classified by ATF as an AOW (Any Other Weapon)..has to be bought and sold through a Class III/SOT FFL but requires only a $5.00 transfer fee rather than $200 required for a full auto weapon or suppressor.For example, I have a 6 1/2" 12 ga Pump Shotgun custom made by a company in Florida called SERBU, that as a Class III/SOT Holder i bought ona Form 3 and is classified as an AOW.I can legally sell/ transfer it on a Form 4 to any individual that can pass the extensive FBI/ATF background and fingerprint check and has been signed off by the chief LEO in county of residence, with a $5 transfer tax fee, after being approved by the ATF.Local Laws differ,,Although Federally legal, some states will not allow anClass III

firearm/suppressors of any kind, including AOW's.Check. your state reguilations .As example, some states allow Class III suppressors, but not for hunting..Somes tates allow hunting with a suppressor, but not all.

 

 

There has been talk lately that suppressors may be downgraded to AOW's in the future.

Shorty, has the fee been changed? I bought a SBR classified, transfer fee for ATF was 200.00. SBR is anything under 16" by ATF. I have over a 1/2 dozen Class 3 and the only thing that was a 50.00 fee were my 2 silencers. MT

["Pop" Dawson]

Nope

 

It's classified as a pistol, not a rifle. since the gun never had a longer barrel to shorten and was made from scratch as a pistol(there are other regulatory reasons as well), it's a pistol and not regulated.If the barrel was shortened to creae the Mares Leg, it would fall under Class III Regs as an AOW

 

My understanding is that the original Mares Laig made for Steve McQueen in Wanted Dead or Alive presented several regulatory issues for the Produucers, and 3 were made for the show.

 

By the way an SBR (short barreled rifle or SBS short barreled shotgun is classified by ATF as an AOW (Any Other Weapon)..has to be bought and sold through a Class III/SOT FFL but requires only a $5.00 transfer fee rather than $200 required for a full auto weapon or suppressor.For example, I have a 6 1/2" 12 ga Pump Shotgun custom made by a company in Florida called SERBU, that as a Class III/SOT Holder i bought ona Form 3 and is classified as an AOW.I can legally sell/ transfer it on a Form 4 to any individual that can pass the extensive FBI/ATF background and fingerprint check and has been signed off by the chief LEO in county of residence, with a $5 transfer tax fee, after being approved by the ATF.Local Laws differ,,Although Federally legal, some states will not allow anClass III

firearm/suppressors of any kind, including AOW's.Check. your state reguilations .As example, some states allow Class III suppressors, but not for hunting..Somes tates allow hunting with a suppressor, but not all.

 

 

There has been talk lately that suppressors may be downgraded to AOW's in the future.

Shorty what about cutting the barrels to 15" on an older S x S that has a dent from a car wreck. I was going to do that and register it, but I can't find which amount and Its not worth 200 bucks to me.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Shorty what about cutting the barrels to 15" on an older S x S that has a dent from a car wreck. I was going to do that and register it, but I can't find which amount and Its not worth 200 bucks to me.

I would seriously ask all questions pertaining to a Class 3, to either a Class 3 dealer, or call ATF up. They are and have been very helpfull to me many times. And even rushed through a couple applications. Class 3 are nothing to fool around with, and I wouldn't try to say answer, except with what I have encountered. Here's a helpfull page on some SBR questions. MT

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=atf%20sbr&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.atf.gov%2Ffirearms%2Ffaq%2Fnational-firearms-act-short-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html&ei=2hrETrGnKNGCtgexqq3IDQ&usg=AFQjCNG3AZ9IrBqpy-OtRiLFN6fdMp87qw

[Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 Life]

Shorty, has the fee been changed? I bought a SBR classified, transfer fee for ATF was 200.00. SBR is anything under 16" by ATF. I have over a 1/2 dozen Class 3 and the only thing that was a 50.00 fee were my 2 silencers. MT

 

SBS's are AOW's and require only a $5.00 transfer fee.

Full auto and Suppressors and Short Barreles Rifles are $200

 

I have never heard of an NFA transfer fee of $50 for anything

 

From NFA:

 

Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA.

 

Any Other Weapon:

 

 

Any Other Weapon

26 U.S.C. § 5845(E)

 

For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term "Any Other Weapon" means:

 

• Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive;
• A pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell;
• Weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading; and
• Any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire.

Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

 

Examples of "Any Other Weapon" include:

 

 

 

 

$50 for silencers is totally wrong..I have no idea where you got that charge for a suppressor transfer.For further information on NFA Class III Transfers and fees, please contact me at : I will not reply to NFA queries through PM's or the SASS Wire.

rsmhd_1@charter.net

 

 

 

 

OR:

 

Best advice, go to ATF.gov and search for NFA regulations

[Dubious Don #56333]

Shorty what about cutting the barrels to 15" on an older S x S that has a dent from a car wreck. I was going to do that and register it, but I can't find which amount and Its not worth 200 bucks to me.

 

 

You go to the ATF website, download form one, making an SBR which would also be for a shotgun under 18" Send in with 200 bucks, when it's approved, break out yer hacksaw. Once a rifle or shotgun (An Any Other Weapon only applies to non-shoulder fired weapons and once it's been a "shotgun" you gotta pay the 200, not 5)

 

Mare's legs, like certain pump action shotguns made today with pistol grips only are sold as handguns. No ATF mumbo-jumbo. Some SBS (Short Barrel Shotguns) have been registered as AOW's with the 5.00 tax. Example. I know of several indivuduals who have bought Benelli 14" shotguns. Shoulder stock with pistol grip. Some were registered as AOW, others were SBR/SBS with $200 stamp. Go figure. I never did get a straight answer out of ATF as to why.

 

The OP asked about shoulder stocks on BP revolvers. It is perfectly legal to put a shoulder stock on a Luger or Broomhandle Mauser because those fall into the catagory of curios and relics. Go to the ATF website, go to the C&R section. Your answer should be there.

[Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 Life]

. Once a rifle or shotgun (An Any Other Weapon only applies to non-shoulder fired weapons and once it's been a "shotgun" you gotta pay the 200, not 5)

 

Wrong.If it started life as a pistol gripped shotgun with 18" + barrel, legal to modify as AOW for a $5 transfer fee(of course you must have an ATF/NFA Class III manfacturers license to produce one legally!)

http://www.serbu.com...superShorty.php

 

Thi shotgun is an AOW, 61/2 " barrel and started life as a Mossberg 500

BUYING NFA ITEMS

What the hell is this NFA stuff? NFA stands for the National Firearms Act, which was passed by Congress in 1934. The NFA provides for the registration and tax of certain types of weapons: machine guns, silencers, short-barreled rifles, sawed-off shotguns and gadget guns (which are considered to be AOWs- Any Other Weapon.

 

Obviously, the BFG-50 rifle is NOT an NFA weapon, though there are bills in Congress working to change that). The popular story is that the NFA was passed to help curb the violence of the "Roaring '20s", brought about mostly because of Prohibition. Anyone who knows anything about the way our Federal Government works will realize that with the ending of Prohibition in 1933, something had to be done with all those Treasury agents, and enforcing a new batch of bogus laws was just the ticket. The $200 tax levied by the NFA ($5 for AOWs) was, in 1934, an incredibly large sum. Now it's mostly an annoyance. The bottom line is that yes, you can buy a machine gun, silencer, or other similarly evil weapon (that's a joke, of course...evil is not a trait which objects can possess), provided that you live in a state which allows them. You'll have to jump through a few hoops and pay the tax, but at least you can still buy this stuff. So here is a step-by step guide for buying an NFA item from Serbu Firearms, Inc.:

 

Full auto firearms are also registered under the National Firearms Act of 1934, however, the ironically named Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986 prohibited the civilian registration of full-auto firearms made since that date - which is why we can't offer these fun toys for sale.

 

Make sure the item you want is legal in your state. Some states ban all NFA weapons, some ban just certain types.

 

1. Contact a local Class 3 dealer or Class 2 manufacturer and find out what needs to be done in your state in order to purchase an NFA item.
2. Make sure you can get a sign off. This is the major snag to buying an NFA item. To complete your BATF paperwork (BATF Form 4) which transfers the NFA item to you, you'll need the signature of a local law enforcement chief. Not just a street cop, but the Sheriff, State's Attorney, etc. Said person is not required to sign the form, and in many locations around the country, won't.
3. Form a corporation. This is a loophole which gets you around the sign off. Do this ONLY if you can't get a sign off. The down side is that there are many hassles associated with forming and maintaining a corporation. Another down side is that the corporation owns the guns, you don't.
4. Send money. Usually your local dealer charges a fee for handling the transfer.
5. Wait. The dealer-to-dealer paperwork usually takes at least 30 days, and we're usually backordered to the point where your dealer won't see a gun, silencer, whatever, for 45-60 days.
6. Rejoice when your gun comes in! Welcome to the restrictive, elite and fun world of NFA. Here in the U.S., we enjoy as a Constitutionally protected right something which most nations of the world have stripped from their subjects....uh....citizens. Be responsible and safe!

State Information

ALL the stuff you see on this page is legal per Federal law, while many states choose to outlaw some or all of it.

 

Our silencers are legal in most states, but are not legal in: CA, HI, KS, MO, IA, MN, IL, MI, NJ, NY, MA, RI. Short barrelled or sawed off shotguns are illegal in MA, and probably some of these other states as well. It is not possible for Serbu Firearms to maintain a current list of all state laws, so please make sure any NFA item you are ordering is legal in your state before initiating the lengthy paperwork process.

 

Please don't ask us to "sell one to your parents" if you happen to live in one of these states. Our silencers and short barreled shotguns are very reasonably priced but the cost goes to around $250,000 or 10 years in jail if you happen to possess one illegally in one of the above mentioned states.

 

[Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 Life]

Shorty what about cutting the barrels to 15" on an older S x S that has a dent from a car wreck. I was going to do that and register it, but I can't find which amount and Its not worth 200 bucks to me.

 

 

 

I am only a Class III/SOT (Special Occupational Tax) FFL..A class III is not actually a license at all..it is a special occupational tax that requires any exisiting FFL that cares to deal in Class III to buy the tax stamp enabling you to sell Class III for a $500/year tax fee.

 

 

Please Note: I am deleting my comments re this post.

 

I don't want to incur any liability by giving any ATF/NFA Advice via the Wire and The various ATF/NFA Regs are extremely complicated and I do not want to chance giving out any incorrect infoirmation. I will leave posted any direct quotes form the atf website or other documented websites..I simply won't post my own comments or interpretations about any legality issue on Wire

 

Please refer to www.atf.gov for any questions you may have

 

Thank You, and I hope My Wire Pards understand

I would be happy fior anyone tocontact me off Wire at:

 

rsmhd_1@charter.net

 

or: www.nevadawesternfirearms.com

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

My oversight..Short Barreled Rifles and Short Barreled shotguns are consideed two separate categories by ATF/NFA:

SBS's are AOW's and require only a $5.00 transfer fee.

Full auto and Suppressors and Short Barreles Rifles are $200

 

I have never heard of an NFA transfer fee of $50 for anything

 

From NFA:

 

Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA.

 

Any Other Weapon:

 

 

Any Other Weapon

26 U.S.C. § 5845(E)

 

For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term "Any Other Weapon" means:

 

• Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive;
• A pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell;
• Weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading; and
• Any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire.

Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

 

Examples of "Any Other Weapon" include:

 

 

 

 

$50 for silencers is totally wrong..I have no idea where you got that charge for a suppressor transfer.For further information on NFA Class III Transfers and fees, please contact me at : I will not reply to NFA queries through PM's or the SASS Wire.

rsmhd_1@charter.net

 

 

 

 

OR:

 

Best advice, go to ATF.gov and search for NFA regulations

Thanks Shorty, I mistaked also. Checked my paperwork, they all have a 200.00 stamp on them, including silencers. MT

[Oddnews SASS# 24779]

I thought it would be just like the T-C contenders -- it's illegal to put the carbine stock on the weapon while a pistol barrel is in place, even if you own the greater-than-16-inch rifel barrel for the Contender.

[Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 Life]

I thought it would be just like the T-C contenders -- it's illegal to put the carbine stock on the weapon while a pistol barrel is in place, even if you own the greater-than-16-inch rifel barrel for the Contender.

 

 

 

The ATF even has a special ruling for TC's that spells this out in great detail

 

 

 

See here re TC's:Section 2

http://www.atf.gov/r...ling-2011-4.pdf

[Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 Life]

I would seriously ask all questions pertaining to a Class 3, to either a Class 3 dealer, or call ATF up. They are and have been very helpfull to me many times. And even rushed through a couple applications. Class 3 are nothing to fool around with, and I wouldn't try to say answer, except with what I have encountered. Here's a helpfull page on some SBR questions. MT

http://www.google.co...tRiLFN6fdMp87qw

 

 

I am an FFL/SOT/Class III Licensee

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

I am an FFL/SOT/Class III Licensee

In your post on ways to purchase a Class 3 item, you forgot to mention a 3rd option, a "Revocable Trust". Its what me and the wife have. Its not a Corporation, it gives me and the wife ownership, and if something happens to us, the Class 3 items (actually NFA or title 2 firearm)are transferred to a 3rd named person, rather then confiscated. The trust also makes the paperwork faster once the dealer has a copy of the trust. In fact the dealer, (a well known Florida Class 3 dealer of full-auto), had our paperwork out the same evening, and in less then 5 weeks, we got approval.

There are some good lawyers, that charge a reasonable fee to set this up, once done, no future hassle's. Highly recommend. MT

[Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 Life]

In your post on ways to purchase a Class 3 item, you forgot to mention a 3rd option, a "Revocable Trust". Its what me and the wife have. Its not a Corporation, it gives me and the wife ownership, and if something happens to us, the Class 3 items (actually NFA or title 2 firearm)are transferred to a 3rd named person, rather then confiscated. The trust also makes the paperwork faster once the dealer has a copy of the trust. In fact the dealer, (a well known Florida Class 3 dealer of full-auto), had our paperwork out the same evening, and in less then 5 weeks, we got approval.

There are some good lawyers, that charge a reasonable fee to set this up, once done, no future hassle's. Highly recommend. MT

 

 

Yep

I am in the process of doing the same thing before i surrender my FFL and SOT with an attorney in Ohio